Is CNC cheating

[Tim StevensParticipant @timstevens64731]

In fairness to Fizzy he doesn't actually claim that anything is cheating, he asks if it is. Asking is not the same as claiming.

He does go on to set out his own view, and some of us have expressed different views. Such is life.

My hand made paper is hanging to try, and my goose-quill pen is sharp. I just have to finish grinding these oak galls, and I will be ready to add the (home made) green vitriol. Then I will be able to prepare a letter to give to the common carrier as he passes on his way to Birmingham, and I hope that Mr Boulton will kindly reply with permission to begin a model of one of his fire-engines. Have I broken anyones 'rules' yet?

Cheers, Tim

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

A very thoughtful essay, Neil … and possibly more than fizzy's question deserves

… Unless I am very much mistaken; fizzy uses oxy-acetylene welding equipment

You will probably find parallel discussions on the needlework forum

… I think these "questions" are usually just tossed-in for the sport of it.

MichaelG.

[Martin ConnellyParticipant @martinconnelly55370]

A short time ago I made a part using the manual data input (MDI) of Mach3 to do the work. I thought it would be interesting for all the manual machinists to look at the half-way house of CNC that is MDI so wrote up the process with a parallel commentary of what a manual process would entail for comparison. I think it would help some of the people who may be interested in dipping their toe into CNC but are daunted by talk of 3D CAD and CAD/CAM/CNC with POST processing and all the other abbreviations that can be bandied about. It may also enlighten some of the people who think CNC is just pressing a button and sitting down to wait as to what may be entailed. Due to the limitations of this forum there may be some loss of quality in the prints.

Martin

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Tim Stevens on 02/09/2016 10:10:34:

In fairness to Fizzy he doesn't actually claim that anything is cheating, he asks if it is. Asking is not the same as claiming.

He does go on to set out his own view, and some of us have expressed different views. Such is life.

In a later post he is pretty unambiguous though:

"I would however think it extremely unfair if one of my creations were being judged along side a CNC model. I couldn't ever hope to match the surface finish and accuracy and for that reason would class it as cheating. "

I've now added an anonymous poll, to see the results you have to vote.

Neil

[nigel jones 5Participant @nigeljones5]

Crikey this has gone a bit mad….when I first posted the question I was referring to cheating in the sense of 'do you feel that you have cheated yourself if you use CNC?'. I was looking only for opinions of a persons own sense. I certainly wasn't putting down anyone who uses CNC and if by doing so I offended anyone then I profoundly apologise. That was never my intension and unfortunately for me it now feels like it has now escalated to a 'fizzy bashing' exercise. I stand by the premise that I wouldn't be happy having my work judged along side something produced in CNC but not for reasons of fear and jealousy as Neil suggested, but simply because it would be (in my mind) in a different class. I dont enter competitions and so the question was merely academic but I thought it would be interesting to gauge others opinions, nothing more, nothing less.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Thanks to Neil for taking the time to summarise his take on this.

Apologies if I missed a point already made in his two-part post but I would add that it's only cheating if you do it in a competition AND you deliberately break the rules of that competition.

Curiously enough my breakfast read today was the September 19th 1966 issue of Model Engineer. In it there is strong reaction to a claim by K.E. Wilson that: "the vast majority of prize-winning locomotives cannot even raise steam and haul their own tenders: I would make it compulsory for every engine that qualified for a prize of any sort to demonstrate its working powers before receiving any award". Presumably he felt there was a bias against his work in competitions.

The same issue contains the article "My Purley Locomotive Works" by LBSC. In it he describes his workshop. No CNC of course but I have to say LBSC was exceptionally well equipped. For instance he mentions three machines "which are the sole examples in this country, to the best of my knowledge and belief." I don't suppose anyone would suggest that LBSC owning and using better tools than average meant that he was "cheating".

Dave

Why do I only spot mistakes after hitting the button?

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 02/09/2016 11:01:45

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by fizzy on 02/09/2016 10:53:52:

… unfortunately for me it now feels like it has now escalated to a 'fizzy bashing' exercise. …

Don't worry. If you're banished to the outer darkness over this I shall start a "Free the Fizzy One" campaign!

Best Wishes,

Dave

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by fizzy on 02/09/2016 10:53:52:

it has now escalated to a 'fizzy bashing' exercise.

Sorry Fizzy if my posting made it appear a bit of a personal issue. I do think that some people do feel threatened by CNC and would feel happier if it was somehow banned from the hobby.

But folks can think what they want, and I'm more concerned that some people don't post their CNC work because they feel it is perceived negatively. I know your approach to welded boilers has generated similar reactions from people who like to see them silver soldered…

As for Curly, he never entered a competition in his life claiming his machines were meant for working not judging although it may have had something to do with his difficulty to accept criticism!.

Neil

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

Posted by duncan webster on 01/09/2016 19:22:00:

Posted by Michael Walters on 01/09/2016 08:23:27:

Posted by Hopper on 01/09/2016 07:20:06:

Electric motors! That's where the rot set in! If you don't treadle it yourself and soak the job in your own sweat, you haven't really made it yourself!

 

Yes! I knew they were the work of the devil! Them motorcaring city folk just don't know whats good for em anymore.

Seriously though, if i can teach someone with no machining experience to run a cnc program, then surely, even the proponents have to tell you that there is obviously a descrepancy between the two. You can't argue they are equal skills.

Michael W

Edited By Michael Walters on 01/09/2016 08:27:19

But I can teach someone with no machining experience to drive a manual machine tool. I see no intrinsic difference between twiidling a handle so many turns plus so many divisions and telling the computer in G code to do it. You still have to know appropriate speeds, depth of cut, feed rate etc, and don't think you can just let the machine get on with it under computer control with an unskilled man supervising, seen what happens when the unskilled guy didn't know it wasn't supposed to make that noise, ruined tens of thousands of pounds worth of components. Sensible management puts skilled guy on, just gets more productivity.

I presume all the naysayers refuse to use the leadscrew when screwcutting, as that would be taking the skill out of it.

Thats where you're wrong duncan, alot of machine shops allow unskilled operators to mind the machines…so what i said still stands, you don't need to understand it. No more than the operators at key cutting services need to understand the cnc, i asked one guy and he said he had no idea, he just puts it in the machine and it does the rest for him. 

With a turn handle you need to count the turns in your own head, you need to know what a decent cut looks and feels like. You don't necessarily need to do any of that with CNC. You can have one skilled guy setting it up and 3 guys minding a fleet of machines. Whats more, it saves you on the wage bill because you can treat the minders like dirt knowing you could replace them in a heart beat. 

Michael W

 

Edited By Michael Walters on 02/09/2016 11:14:55

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 02/09/2016 11:07:48:

Posted by fizzy on 02/09/2016 10:53:52:

it has now escalated to a 'fizzy bashing' exercise.

Sorry Fizzy if my posting made it appear a bit of a personal issue. I do think that some people do feel threatened by CNC and would feel happier if it was somehow banned from the hobby.

But folks can think what they want, and I'm more concerned that some people don't post their CNC work because they feel it is perceived negatively. I know your approach to welded boilers has generated similar reactions from people who like to see them silver soldered…

As for Curly, he never entered a competition in his life claiming his machines were meant for working not judging although it may have had something to do with his difficulty to accept criticism!.

Neil

You can't please everyone in life Neil, even if it sells you less magazines. People respect someone who stands by what they say rather than appealing to everyone. It shows a fear of commitment, if people suspect things are just said to appeal and canvass a particular group. 

Edited By Michael Walters on 02/09/2016 11:18:33

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

I tend to think that if there was a zombie apocalypse… then could you use your particular skills to help rebuild civilisation again

So it depends on whether you could get a CNC machine going after the Zombie Apocalypse, and then keep it tooled up and running

So there.

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

Posted by Ady1 on 02/09/2016 11:14:33:

I tend to think that if there was a zombie apocalypse… then could you use your particular skills to help rebuild civilisation again

So it depends on whether you could get a CNC machine going after the Zombie Apocalypse, and then keep it tooled up and running

So there.

Where did that come from?

[Danny M2ZParticipant @dannym2z]

Could it be the case that old farts (include me) that cannot afford/ understand CNC pronounce it 'the work of the devil' ?

Are some of us the Luddites of the 21st century?

**LINK**

* Danny M *

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

Rather than cheating, I would count CNC as an achievement, another skill mastered. I suppose it might be like comparing forge welding the TIG, or cutting with a cold chisel, or water jet(not quite model engineer yet).

Ian S C

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

Posted by Danny M2Z on 02/09/2016 11:21:48:

Could it be the case that old farts (include me) that cannot afford/ understand CNC pronounce it 'the work of the devil' ?

Are some of us the Luddites of the 21st century?

**LINK**

* Danny M *

I applaud you put a link in to a historical account of the luddites, as the term has come to describe a bunch of backward caveman destroying technology because they don't like it? Sounds crazy when you say that back to yourself and realize, thats because it is crazy, it's not the truth. 

Michael W

Edited By Michael Walters on 02/09/2016 11:30:13

[Speedy Builder5Participant @speedybuilder5]

So, when 3D metal printing becomes affordable for MEs, where would we draw the line on "The builder made it all himself in a small shed during the evenings". I have been given a laser cut metal plate model to build, and I will "Build it all myself" – Doesn't quite match up to what we call a ME's masterpiece though!

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Michael Walters on 02/09/2016 11:07:50:

With a turn handle you need to count the turns in your own head, you need to know what a decent cut looks and feels like. You don't necessarily need to do any of that with CNC. You can have one skilled guy setting it up and 3 guys minding a fleet of machines.

But isn't the point that in the home workshop YOU have to be the 'one skilled guy'?

Neil

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

To quote Joad "It all depends what you mean by cheating"

If you are trying to pass off work as non cnc when it is then Yes.

If you are attempting to build something originally made 150 years ago using the original techniques then Yes.

If you are wanting to build something using all the available means at hand then NO.

If you like learning new skills then No.

If you have built the CNC machine then used it then Really NO.

Engineers have always jumped at every new development, you really would not see George Stevenson using a hand cranked lathe if he lived now or even back then if something better was available. The trouble is there is something of the historian/antiquarian in most of us which is generally why we make steam engines and not space ships. It's a vague non specific question really. (Much like 'should we leave the EU' when no-one really has any idea what that looks like and is about as practical as asking someone if they would like to go back to 1973)

[Another JohnSParticipant @anotherjohns]

Posted by fizzy on 02/09/2016 10:53:52:

… for me it now feels like it has now escalated to a 'fizzy bashing' …

Nope – I for one am glad when people post differing views, thank you for yours.

Imagine a life where everyone thought exactly the same thoughts??

Fizzy – we are all probably 98% in agreement with each other (after all, we are Model Engineers, right??) it's the final 2% that makes the conversations really interesting.

John.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

I have mentioned this on other threads; but I think it's worth another look, in the context of this discussion:

The horological firm 'Charles Frodsham' showed prototypes of a new watch.

**LINK**

http://www.frodsham.com/docs/InBreguetsFootsteps.pdf

One very interesting feature being the little three-legged bridge, shown at Fig. 11

They purchased a rather special [pre-loved] Swiss machine, and developed their own CNC system to drive it: The rough machining, and the precisely positioned holes are all done with the CNC, but the final shaping and polishing of the arms is done by hand.

No; this doesn't answer fizzy's question, but it does show appropriate division of labour.

MichaelG.

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 02/09/2016 12:00:54:

Posted by Michael Walters on 02/09/2016 11:07:50:

With a turn handle you need to count the turns in your own head, you need to know what a decent cut looks and feels like. You don't necessarily need to do any of that with CNC. You can have one skilled guy setting it up and 3 guys minding a fleet of machines.

But isn't the point that in the home workshop YOU have to be the 'one skilled guy'?

Neil

Theres no use throwing the goal post around, i said, as an actual fact, that plenty of unskilled operators mind cnc machines, that is definitively true.

Michael W

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Even the mighty Patek Philippe is at it.

Martin.

[NJHParticipant @njh]

 

 

 

SURELY THIS SHOULD READ:-

 

Do you think the use of CNC equipment in model engineering COMPETITIONS constitutes cheating.

Yes, in all circumstances

Only if it isn't declared

No, its just another set of skills

 

What is done OUTSIDE competitions is surely up to the individual – most models, after all, are not entered into competition.

 

Edited By NJH on 02/09/2016 14:00:32

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Gentlemen,
May I point out this post on page 2. Halfway down, the article about a brush ring.

http://www.model-engineer.co.uk/forums/postings.asp?th=96032&p=2

My customer was only interested in the new ring and not how it was made. As an aside he would have paid more for that job if using conventional machine tools.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by NJH on 02/09/2016 13:55:56:

SURELY THIS SHOULD READ:-

Do you think the use of CNC equipment in model engineering COMPETITIONS constitutes cheating.

Yes, in all circumstances

Only if it isn't declared

No, its just another set of skills

Only if that had been the initial point of the thread, but it wasn't.

Neil

[Author]

Posts