Increasing cost of entry into model engineering

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Zebethyal on 24/07/2018 14:17:29:.

The Arc equivilent SX2P has gone from £585.00 to £771 in the same time period – a 31% increase.

The LittleMachineShop model 3990 (3960 back then) has gone from $819.00 to $1170.00 – a 42% increase.

'Currently' dropped from £771 to £735.00 incl.VAT = around $970.20 Incl.VAT or $808.50 excl.VAT…. cheaper by about $10.50 against LMS's old price… as their prices do not include taxes.

Ketan at ARC.

Edited By Ketan Swali on 26/07/2018 13:47:10

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Oh, and if anyone looking at cost of entry into model engineering, 'currently' there is a great bundle for under £500.00 on the SX1L mill… which is fully loaded with a great vice, collets, clamping kit, some end mills, and cutting fluid, to get you started.

Ketan at ARC

[Carl Wilson 4Participant @carlwilson4]

I have a small hobby shop with a lathe and mill, well actually two lathes and two mills and some tig welding gear, but still small really. In there I indulge my favourite pastime of making bedding for my stainless steel hamster.

I want decent quality tooling that serves me well but doesn’t hurt my pocket.

The individuals on you tube who have machining channels and review kit from the likes of bang good are a God send to the likes of me. They don’t receive payment – unless you count getting to keep the tools they review – and they give the stuff a good work out so any flaws become apparent.

I just bought a set of 16mm toolholders and some inserts from bang good off the back of a recent review. They are excellent. They are no different in quality to the ones I’d purchase from all the usual UK suppliers except in one very important regard. They are a fraction of the cost. And by a fraction,I mean about a third.

I also needed an ISO 30 chuck recently. I bought one from bang good. It is excellent. Negligible run out, well made and finished. Does me proud. It was considerably less expensive, by an order of magnitude, than the same or basically identical product from the usual UK sources.

So essentially if you want your hobby machine shop to not break the bank then you have to shop carefully and you’ll get quality items from the likes of bang good. You are buying exactly the same products from exactly the same factories that the UK suppliers do. They then stick their large mark up on it.

[Barnaby WildeParticipant @barnabywilde70941]

This all reminds me of the standard answer given to anyone asking "how much does it cost" to go motorsport racing.

It costs the same as it did in the very beginning, through the 20's, the 40's, the 60's,70's. 80's etc & well into the 21st century.

It costs everything.

I don't think that the initial cost of the machinery is that much of a barrier to someone who truly wishes to persue model engineering as a hobby, but I do see a future for shared ownership type schemes such as men in sheds & makerspaces etc.

I like to buy some things I need, often 2nd hand, use them for the job then sell on again. This way some things need cost you nothing, you can actually turn a small profit if you buy well.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

And just for balance my recent posts and videos show what pot luck it is buying from Bangood etc with the poor results the cutter gave as supplied. Worked OK after spending more money than it originally cost on it and correcting the run out.

For small items of tooling it may be worth the risk as its only a few quid lost but would you buy a mill from them?

Edited By JasonB on 27/07/2018 07:05:24

[Chris Evans 6Participant @chrisevans6]

A great value has to be put on the shear pleasure of owning and using the equipment and the satisfaction of making/repairing something. I tend to add stuff to my workshop on a regular basis for very little money a full set of 5C collets bought one or two at a time are priceless for the convenience, some only cost £5 or less and are more than good enough for my use.

[FarmboyParticipant @farmboy]

In the 1960s I saved up to buy a Unimat lathe. I'm fairly sure it cost £56 at the time, or about 4 weeks wages. I believe the average wage now is around £500. Four weeks wages today would buy a pretty good new lathe and a small mill . . .

Mike.

[Carl Wilson 4Participant @carlwilson4]

I wouldn’t buy a mill from bang good. But then I wouldn’t buy one from Arc either.

In my original post the point I was trying to make was that you tube reviewers are helping the likes of me-and dare I say it us-to save considerable sums on the bits and pieces we need. My recent tooling acquisition is a case in point. I bought the ones I saw reviewed, so I knew they were good and fit for purpose. I saved by an order of magnitude on my old suppliers price. And the quality and function was exactly the same.

How do the UK suppliers gauge the products they are buying from the same Chinese factories?

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Carl Wilson 4 on 27/07/2018 10:19:36:

My recent tooling acquisition is a case in point. I bought the ones I saw reviewed, so I knew they were good and fit for purpose. .

How do the UK suppliers gauge the products they are buying from the same Chinese factories?

Don't forget many video reviewers have links to buying the products they review, these generate them a modest but regular income, sop don't assume they are entirely neutral.

The bigger UK suppliers regularly go to China and have ongoing dialogues with the factories about specs and quality.

Unfortunately this is one of the costs that adds to the price of buying from UK based suppliers along with customer support, import duties, VAT, returns, spares, stockholding, warehousing, premises and showroom costs, staff costs, CE testing and certification, WEEE, advertising… all of which online sellers can avoid.

Neil

[Martin 100Participant @martin100]

Without the likes of ARC or Axminster etc I would suspect few here would ever have a 'new' mill or lathe. Same with machine vices, rotary tables, dividing heads, tool grinders, quick change toolposts, angle plates or a myriad of other things. In the past they'd spend years (or even decades) machining a set of raw castings often following a series lasting dozens of issues in the magazines and then at the end maybe forget why they made them in the first place. Old machinery is also quite simply way too big for many home workshops, something compact is usually all many actually need. Something heavier and bigger with significantly more stiffness would always be better though.

Despite the immediate additional cost I'd sooner buy much (but not all) of what I need locally than trust a supplier thousands of miles away with a dubious or non existent return policy. But when you can buy the identical item to that sold by a UK supplier for 60% of the price, delivered within two or three weeks you wonder how sustainable in the long term the UK pricing model is.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

I always used to buy stuff at the ME shows. I remember when there was a decent number of traders there going round looking for a particular item in the £25 ball park. I found 3 stands with the same item all at different prices but then went round again looking at the quality. Only in this situation with quick access to the actual product could I see why one trader had paid more for his stock. So I gladly bought the most expensive. You just don't get this opportunity anymore so need to go by the traders' reputation.

An interesting thing you can compare easily if you have all within a mile as I do is between Toolstation, Screwfix, Wickes, B&Q who all sell the 'same' thing. I got a throw away folding bench for peanuts from Toolstation. Putting it beside my B&Q one it was an inch shorter, the top was two inches shorter and made of cheese, and the metal was thin and half the weight.

[Paul H 1Participant @paulh1]

My lathe and mill are both Chinese, bought from SPG 2 years ago and I am a happy camper. I live in France and before I bought did a very thorough research of not just the offerings in the UK but in France and the countries around me. What became very apparent was that pretty much the same products were being sold by many European vendors but at much higher prices than their equivalents in the UK, plus generally with a poor accessories spec with them. Delivery form the UK was very reasonable and quick.

Martin 100 makes the very valid point "Without the likes of ARC or Axminster etc I would suspect few here would ever have a 'new' mill or lathe."

Buying what I did at the prices offered, enabled me to fulfill a 40 year ambition and have new equipment as well.

[Frederic FrenereParticipant @fredericfrenere44328]

Mr Carl Wilson makes a point of sense in this debate.
I like to watch every week a certain YouTube. I like the contents, it is similar to my own efforts. So this guy reviews products from various sources. Bangood is one, welding products is another. I like this guy, he seems ok. Every review he makes the point, this stuff is free. I don’t pay. Then he spends maybe two hours to make and edit a 30 mins video? To get a 30euro tool for free? This guy is genuine. I send him something, he sends me something. Other viewers do the same. Maybe meet the guy at a show and say hello. Do I trust this guy? I bought Bangood lathe tools from his recommendation. They work as good as my 200 euro tools.
I’ve never met Mr Ketan. I’ve never seen his stuff tested. Of course he is a good guy, his business is going well and he is recommended in the magazine. Is his recommendation worth more than my YouTube guy? No. Is it completely without bias? No, he sponsored the magazine articles. This is business.
Growing up, parts and tools come from Dubois. He wraps your drill bit or your part in paper, gives advice and you go home. He is ancient and does not know the internet. Now his shop is a restaurant. Supplies come from the internet, Mr Ketan fills the gap. Now with technology, people have more choices to buy. YouTube reviews are part of this.
You can’t put Dubois out of business and complain about YouTube! It’s business.
I hope my point isn’t a sore one, no sour milk among friends! My observation.
Fred.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

It is not just the free tool that a youtuber will get, I think Youtube pays about $7 per 1000 views so with something like 50K subscribers that can be quite a nice income even if only 10K watch.

There may be a risk that if you give too many negative reviews then you may not get sent anything else so nothing for that weeks video so no income.

[Carl Wilson 4Participant @carlwilson4]

Point taken about the bad reviews and so forth. However, if I watch someone who is taking a heavy cut on a piece of stainless round bar and the insert is performing well, then I can choose to buy that tool. If he does something else with another tool and it doesn't perform, then I don't buy it. That is the risk taken out of it for me.

If the tools don't perform then they fail the review. There is very little you can do to fake that. OK so you tubers get a small income from making and editing videos. I get a great deal of pleasure from watching them and I get a lead to a good supply of tools. I don't begrudge them the income, wish I could do the same. Pay for bits for your shop by making a few videos, be great.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Look in the description of any Bangood review video. You will see a set of links, hover over these to see how the full URL contains a lot of extra information.

Click on that link and buy, and the reviewer will get commission.

[Carl Wilson 4Participant @carlwilson4]

I don’t mind you tube reviewers making a bit of commission on stuff that gets sold. They’ve shown me what I can and can’t buy with some degree of confidence, so fair play to them.

Neil, I remember last year you reviewed a lathe in the magazine from Arc. I take it you got to keep that machine? So all’s fair then

Just to be clear, I’ve nothing against any UK supplier. I still use them. You’d want your head examining, I suspect, if you bought a sight unseen rotary table or similar from bang good. That said, for things like inserts, it’s great. Especially if I can watch someone demonstrate them working well.

I found out about bang good from a slightly different angle. An electronics enthusiast friend showed me it as a place to buy small electronic modules, the type of stuff you’d use with Arduino. Much cheaper, again, than UK based suppliers.

I used a little relay module from there in my current VFD conversion on my Harrison M250. You can read all about this over on the mig welding forum. It’s in a thread called “A vfd for my lathe”.

Hey. If Arc can plug his stuff here, I can plug mine.

Edited By Carl Wilson 4 on 27/07/2018 15:56:15

[Jon LawesParticipant @jonlawes51698]

I didn't actually know mills were that affordable… I'd almost written them off as "I'll never own one of those"…

[Frederic FrenereParticipant @fredericfrenere44328]

Again my friends, that is business! So the guy makes a buck from my viewing each week? I say good luck. He takes the time to make the video and maybe I learn something. Did you never pay to watch a movie? It costs me nothing.
Tell me that a well known trader never gave a magazine journalist a gift of something he reviews? You can not, Fred is not so easy to fool!
My friends, somebody makes money in nearly all aspects of life. Like the guy says, if it looks like an honest test and he is working the part, then why not buy? I did and I’m a happy man. If it breaks or you think it’s not hard enough, don’t buy!
This is competitive business. If it’s too hot, don’t cook.
I believe that the supplier has to make a living, but so have we. So has the old guy he put out of business. Home shops are expensive, but so is golf, and motorcycles and other pass times. This guy saved me money. I don’t have a problem.
Fred.

[Paul KempParticipant @paulkemp46892]

Unfortunately irrespective of what 'customers' say or the perceived quality of the products, as the song says, it really is "all about the money" and that is unlikely to ever change.

There Is more choice now in what you can buy in terms of machinery and hand tools than say 30 years ago. In terms relative to wages over that period my perception is that it is now more affordable. When my father started to kit out his workshop 40 odd years ago it was a case of waiting until a good second hand opportunity arose on a myford lathe and fobco drill, buying new was out of the question. Ten or fifteen years later when I wanted to get some machinery at home my choices of new machines were Myford, Simat (remember them?) Peatol, Cowels or a new player Hobbymat from Eastern Europe, I went with the latter on grounds of capacity and included accessories for the price and have never regretted it.

That choice however has only become available because business has become more global, opening up the opportunities of reduced manufacturing costs in developing countries. How much of what we buy (machinery and tooling) has been manufactured in Britain / The EU? As Ketan points out the world is a constantly changing place and legislation in developing countries is increasing which will only drive up costs. Alongside this is the Internet market place opening up the UK customer base to sellers with minimal overheads. UK companies with all their associated business costs are now having to compete on a less than level playing field. Good for the consumer? Probably in the short term as it keeps the market keen, longer term though we are likely to lose the traditional dealers with a showroom, the ability to go and look and feel before you buy and after sales support. Already in recent years there has been a decline in such traders attending exhibitions and giving their wares greater exposure to the customer, understandable when you consider the costs involved in attending, exhibition charges, transport, accommodation, wages etc.

Like any market, selling tools and machinery to the amateur home user the key perhaps is customer expectation and available disposable income. Time and time again we see on this forum statements such as buy cheap, buy twice – not always the whole truth in a hobby environment where you are buying something for a specific job or something that will be little used, granted not really applicable to a lathe or mill but very relevant to some accessories and consumables. There also seems to be a quest for extreme precision, is that really necessary for perhaps 80% of the projects undertaken? Laudable and good to strive for accuracy but within limits surely. A recent question posed on here is a good example, reaming a few thou out of a bearing bush for a 5" gauge loco – some responses regarding accuracy of the finished hole were astounding considering its purpose! Something that seems rarely considered is fitness for intended purpose – the intended purpose bit applies not only to the manufacturer perception but also the customer ie not only has it been manufactured to a reasonable standard according to the manufacturer's intention of its use but has the customer considered is it good enough for what I want to achieve?

Perhaps a better way to look at all this is from the statement "Quality Costs" as you don't neccesarily "get what you pay for" certainly if you want a high precision bit of kit it will cost, but sadly just because you pay a lot of money doesn't gaurantee high precision! It's all about perception of value for money. If you get a good bit of kit for a few pounds that does what you need, that's a bonus. If you need high precision and pay for it and are happy that's fine too. Is it REALISTIC though to expect accuracy to tenths of thou from a lathe or mill that costs under £1000?

Last week I recieved an email from a commercial company asking if I could help by making a fairly simple aluminium block to replace one that had been lost or damaged. I don't do commercial work but in this case said yes, I could make one. This particular component looked like it was die cast and in a mass production situation sold through a retailer would probably cost £2 – £3. Because it was a commercial company that would obviously be passing the cost on and not a personal friend and because my time is valuable to me in building my own traction engine I had a quick think about how long it would take to make, machining all over to size, drilling 4 holes, tapping two (thread unspecified) counter boring one (fit unspecified) and decided it would take a couple of hours by the time the machine was set up, tooling selected and the operations carried out. I would need to buy in a piece of material so I gave them a price of between £50 and £60. Funnily enough there has been no reply!

Next time you buy a cheap piece of equipment if it does what you need, be thankful you got a bargain, if it's useless be remorseful and put it down to experience but remember if you only buy on line you are contributing to the decline of traditional businesses that allow you to touch and see the goods before purchase and sooner or later they will disappear leaving you to seek out your own source of supply through faceless and unaccountable 'virtual' overseas suppliers with less certainty of getting what you want. Bottom line is we as customers all want perfection for less, suppliers all want (in fact NEED) to make a profit so it's all about the money.

Paul.

[Frederic FrenereParticipant @fredericfrenere44328]

Yes Paul! It’s about making enough money to survive and for us, getting a tool or a part we can make justification spending some of our money on. Yesterday the shop owner was sorry about the internet seller, he is out of business. Today the internet seller is sorry because his customers have found a way to cut him out. Tomorrow another way.
But I am sorry, I am the horse and the door is open. I have wandered far.
Is it more expensive to make a home shop now? I think no.
In 1973 my lathe might have paid for a small car. Maybe 14000FF Also English lathes are often bought with terms, if you look in the old Model Engineer. Much more than most could afford.
Fred.

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