HSS vs carbide inserts

[Bill PudneyParticipant @billpudney37759]

For what it's worth (hate acronyms!!) I've been using the A R Warner HSS inserts for about 10 years and they are excellent. Resharpening them just requires a whiz on a diamond plate, 10 second tops. Just as long as you haven't knocked lumps out of them!!

cheers

Bill

[CHARLES lipscombeParticipant @charleslipscombe16059]

Hi Neil,

Can you please enlighten me – what are the joys of tangential tooling? A worthy subject to cover in ME Workshop?

Regards,Chas

[Jon GibbsParticipant @jongibbs59756]

Chas,

You can do worse than watch this video from Eccentric Engineering… **LINK**

Other toolholders are available.

Jon

[VicParticipant @vic]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 30/08/2016 09:04:12:

Don't forget the joys of tangential tooling, nirvana for HSS freaks.

Neil

Oh yes, I wouldn't be without mine.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Bill Pudney on 30/08/2016 11:01:21:

For what it's worth (hate acronyms!!) I've been using the A R Warner HSS inserts …

.

HSS

(hate acronyms!!)

MichaelG.

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 30/08/2016 15:04:53:

Posted by Bill Pudney on 30/08/2016 11:01:21:

For what it's worth (hate acronyms!!) I've been using the A R Warner HSS inserts …

.

HSS

(hate acronyms!!)

MichaelG.

I take it inconsistencies are your bugbear? They are part of nature after all.

Michael W

[Peter G. ShawParticipant @peterg-shaw75338]

Re Arthur Warner's HSS inserts.

I would like to try these items, and from reading these forums (forii?) I rather think that so would other people, but I have been put off by the apparent complexities of ordering them, and the costs entailed therein. It seems to me then, that what we need is some enterprising company – are you listening Ketan? – to look into it and perhaps gauge interest by asking for possible orders before considering a bulk order! For me, the equivalent of CCMT060202 (CCMW-2-1.5-0.5?) might be the ones.

Just a suggestion.

Peter G. Shaw

[VicParticipant @vic]

I wonder how much future there is in HSS inserts now that you can buy sharp carbide?

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

What's complex about ordering them, easy from LMS who have a much cheaper P&P than Warners and that will hopefully be off set if it gets through customs under the limit where as Ketan would have to charge VAT and maybe even a tiny bit of profit.

[Jon GibbsParticipant @jongibbs59756]

Those threading inserts from Warners look very interesting.

Do any tangential toolholder fans use theirs for threading? It's something I've never tried but would like tp give a go if I can get the geometry right.

My instinct is that the nose angle must be quite a bit over 55 or 60 degress so that the cut ends up on-angle but I'd be really interested in other's experience.

(I need to get my head in-gear to work out the combination of 60 degree across the corners grinding angle and 12 degree back rakes in each direction)

Jon

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I thought they came with instructions on how to grind for 55 and 60 deg screwcutting.

[NJHParticipant @njh]

Quite right Jason they do. I have to say though that I've never used the tangential tool for screw cutting – but there again I don't screwcut many threads! Most of my threads can be achieved by means of taps & dies.

Norman

[Jon GibbsParticipant @jongibbs59756]

Posted by JasonB on 30/08/2016 16:58:38:

I thought they came with instructions on how to grind for 55 and 60 deg screwcutting.

Well they do if you buy the Eccentric Engineering version, I made my own and they didn't come with instructions

[sean logieParticipant @seanlogie69385]

I've been taking all your advice on board , gonna have a look for some hss tooling . Was on another forum this last few days ,been very interesting. I've been donated a motor and some hss tooling from a member unbelievable generosity on his behalf ,infact we were just talking on the phone tonight . This kind of generosity put a little bit of faith in mankind as they say . 😀

[Bill PudneyParticipant @billpudney37759]

Posted by Michael Walters on 30/08/2016 15:18:56:

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 30/08/2016 15:04:53:

Posted by Bill Pudney on 30/08/2016 11:01:21:

For what it's worth (hate acronyms!!) I've been using the A R Warner HSS inserts …

.

HSS

(hate acronyms!!)

MichaelG.

I take it inconsistencies are your bugbear? They are part of nature after all.

Michael W

Well, that's me sorted out!!

cheers, I think

Bill

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Just teasing, Bill

MichaelG.

[CHARLES lipscombeParticipant @charleslipscombe16059]

Thanks to all who replied about the Eccentric Tool holder, I now understand that there are many devotees of this bit of gear out there, it can do anything a conventional HSS tool can do and that it has some pretty significant advantages when it comes to tool sharpening. To get the Eccentric Toolholder in perspective,only one question remains: does this toolholder offer any improvement in finish or other performance attribute?

Of additional interest to me is that I have a roller-box attachment for my capstan lathe which uses tangential tooling and I should be able to use the sharpening jig for this also

Regards, Chas

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

The Eccentric or similar toolholder makes it dead easy to get the right geometry, but if you grind the same geometry on the end of a tool held conventionally you'll get the same results. It just takes longer, and sooner or later you have to grind away the whole end of the tool and start again. There is another one called the Wimberly

http://www.wimberley-tools.com/

I have no experience of this but the concept appears to be sound, in fact I'm thinking of making one for my Perris.

If you're a member of an ME club ask if anyone has got a tangential holder you could borrow to try.

Edited By duncan webster on 01/09/2016 23:20:46

[CHARLES lipscombeParticipant @charleslipscombe16059]

Thanks Duncan,

I'm now convinced I should buy one!

[Anthony KnightsParticipant @anthonyknights16741]

I made my own tangential tools (left and right handed) as per "mikesworkshop.weebly.com"

The flat on the front of the right hand tool is machined to my lathes centre height, which makes setting the tool height dead easy.

[VicParticipant @vic]

Yes, they're easy to make on the mill. This is one of mine.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by duncan webster on 01/09/2016 23:18:06:

The Eccentric or similar toolholder makes it dead easy to get the right geometry, but if you grind the same geometry on the end of a tool held conventionally you'll get the same results. It just takes longer, and sooner or later you have to grind away the whole end of the tool and start again. There is another one called the Wimberly

**LINK**

I have no experience of this but the concept appears to be sound, in fact I'm thinking of making one for my Perris.

If you're a member of an ME club ask if anyone has got a tangential holder you could borrow to try.

Edited By duncan webster on 01/09/2016 23:20:46

I have a Wimberly but I'm still trying to figure out a practical way of holding it – the size of the head of the casting plus excess HSS sticking out of the back gives it about an inch overhang in a four-way toolpost and means it could only be used for small diameter work. Equally it would need a 'special' holder for the QCTP and still overhang too much. This is off the Wimberley toolholder website:

To compare I measured the overhang (beyond toopost front) of a few tools:

• Hand ground HSS 10mm
• TCT tipped tool in QCTP holder 12mm
• Tangential built into QCTP holder 10mm
• Wimberley as supplied 25mm
• Wimberley with HSS cut in half (estimated) 17mm

So the wimberley as supplied reduces the diameter of work I can tackle by 26 -30mm.

What sort of overhang does a 'normal' tangential holder have?

Of course I could cut the HSS in half but that would only give a small gain and defeats the object of an easy sharpen. long lifetime tool bit.

My conclusion is that the Wimberley is a great idea in principle but in practice it will be best for small work on large lathes unless you have a long-travel topslide or are willing to use a custom toolpost to hold it.

 

Edited By Neil Wyatt on 03/09/2016 10:20:51

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

Just a note, the tangential lathe tool is not exactly new, there is an article in volume one (1898) of ME about such a tool.

Ian S C

[VicParticipant @vic]

Hasn't there been an article in one of the magazines not so long ago about making something like the Wimberly? I'm sure a mate said he was making some type of tool holder but it wasn't a Tangential.

If the Tangential appeared in ME in 1898 then it's probably quite a bit older than that even. It's just that it was "reinvented" quite recently!

[Jon GibbsParticipant @jongibbs59756]

Posted by Jon Gibbs on 30/08/2016 18:55:30:

Posted by JasonB on 30/08/2016 16:58:38:

I thought they came with instructions on how to grind for 55 and 60 deg screwcutting.

Well they do if you buy the Eccentric Engineering version, I made my own and they didn't come with instructions

I looked at the Eccentric Engineering on-line instructions and am not very convinced because the back rake looks far too big to permit easy grinding and checking to cut accurate 55 or 60 degree thread angles unless I'm missing something?

So, trying to follow Martin Cleave's 5 degree side rake recommendation for steel (page 119) which is pretty much all I thread and inspired by Jacques Maurel's article in MEW I came up with this to take 1/4" toolbits.

The toolbit is held at 30 degrees and so only one flank of the toolbit needs a lot of work (the business end for RH threading) and the 1/4" groove and screw in the holder are tilted back at the 5 degree angle so the top is held flat and doesn't need more than a hone. Sharpening is with the toolbit in the QCTP holder for speed.

…not had time to try it in anger yet though.

Jon

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