HSS Turning Tools

[Jerry WrayParticipant @jerrywray14030]

I almost cannot beleive I need to ask this question, but….

There's always a but.

I have searched all the usual suppliers and can only find one supplier of HSS tools, that is Warco.

Surely there are others! I mean tools not blanks.

I'm looking fot 12mm or half-inch square x 100 – 150 mm long.

I can find several sources of carbide an inserts but not good old-fashioned HSS.

Any suggestions?

Jerry

[Jerry WrayParticipant @jerrywray14030]

Supplier

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

You say you are looking for tools not blanks and then you say you want a 12×100-150 and don't say what type of tool you want it ground as??

Most HSS is supplied as sq. , round or rect. bar for you to grind yourself, MSC, EKP,Tracey, ARC, etc all sell HSS in this form. MSC is ikely to be the better quality, they do Eclipse 1/2" x 6" for £48.00 a piece.

ARC & Chester also do pre ground sets

 

Edited By JasonB on 13/09/2013 16:04:18

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Do you mean something like this, just added to Arc's website.?

**LINK**

the 12mm x 12mm ones have an average overall length of 93mm.

[Jerry WrayParticipant @jerrywray14030]

Thanks to you both. I was actually in the Arc site when I posted my messge. I could not find the preground tools.

I am expecting my new 280 V-F at the end of the month so want to avoid grinding my own shapes in my anticipation of getting the m/c up and running!

Jerry

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

The preground tools were added to ARCs site at about 15.45.

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Do you really need 12 mm? Remember that you will have to remove much more metal when resharpening than with a smaller section. I usually use 3/8 or even 5/16 in. tools on my 5 in. lathe and just keep the overhang to a minimum.

Russell.

[Jerry WrayParticipant @jerrywray14030]

Hi Russell,

Fair comment but in m/c set-up it's all about rigidity and eliminating as many sources of error as possible.

Jerry

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I'm the same as Russel. 95% of the time I would say I use 8mm or smaller cutters only reaching for something larger when I get an excessive overhang or specific need. Look at this lot, the indexable tools are 6 & 8mm shank, the HSS 6mm, think there is one 10mm HSS which was a special shape and a 1/2" dia boring bar at the far end though that holds 4mm HSS toolbits. Thats also a 280 lathe and I don't just work on small stuff.

 

Theother problem with a big R/H turning tool is trying to turn small dia parts with teh live centre for support you won't get in there with a big tool.

I also wonder how long that chip breaker groove on the ARC tools will last once you start sharpening things.

Edited By JasonB on 14/09/2013 08:48:03

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Posted by JasonB on 14/09/2013 08:46:28:

I also wonder how long that chip breaker groove on the ARC tools will last once you start sharpening things.

Just grind it back then.
Once a shape is right and it cuts it's easy to replicate the angles and that is what beginners struggle with.

Lets not make it harder than it already is.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Thats what I mean, its not that easy for a beginner to grind a chip breaker on the average cheap bench grinder so its likely to get mucked up. At least with the top just ground with a few deg of rake all they need to do is touch up the side & face.

J

[Jerry WrayParticipant @jerrywray14030]

Jason,

I have taken on board your comments, especially since I will be getting my lathe towards the end of this month, as you know it will be the same as your own.

As yet I have not purchased any new tools; I have the tipped ones from my Cowells and what remains of the tooling from my ML7. It seems that all the suppliers have only sets available for 12×12 HSS, I may decide in the end to grind my own from blanks using perhaps 10×10 for the set-up.

2 questions please,

How do you get on with indexables, and

are your tooling shelves in the picture fixed to the splash guard?

Jerry

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

> The preground tools were added to ARCs site at about 15.45.

Ketan, you need to imporve you telepathic pre-ordering software. It's about eleven minutes slow…

Neil

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

That's because he's operating on BST

British Syston Time

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Gerry the same range of preground tools can also be bought as singles in all sizes from Chronos if you want to try just one out.

Like you a lot of my tooling was from a similar sized lathe to the Myford so I just use that.

1. I get on fine with indexable tools, Most are CCMT so I don't have to keep a vast range of tip shapes.

2. Yes its fixed to teh splayback, I'll take another picture from the side in a while.

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Neil : I read Jerrys post yesterday, and a few minutes later our Alan came and told me that the HSS sets are on-line. I just started smiling there after. It was a great coincidence.

Jerry : Did you click the link I have given earlier in this post?. You will see pre-ground sets for 4mm, 6mm, 8mm, 10mm and 12mm.

Jason : I agree with you to a certain extent. However, every beginner has to start somewhere. What would you rather have…plenty of broken carbide tips by beginners because they don't know how to use them?. Surely the HSS tool bits are more forgiving. From a sellers point of view, the sooner they break the carbide stuff, the sooner they are back for more . But from a beginners point of view, how many of them will come back for more? how many will loose interest because replacing carbide – brazed or tipped is a more expensive exercise?. I still get your point about re-grinding HSS tooling, but at least these don't break as easily as carbide stuff if you don't know what you are doing.

Over the years, I have seen plenty of beginners cursing Jennie – JB Tools for the inserts she sells, saying that they are crap as they break easily. Usually, it is a proven fact that most of the user who makes this statement is a beginner who do not know what he is doing and/or he has bought too fine a radius of insert!. Then they blame Jennie!

Ketan.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Ketan, I'm not advocating that a beginner starts with indexable cutters and if you want to read all my posts I never have.

What I was questioning was how easily a beginner can keep those R/H and L/H tool performing. I started off with a set like this which is very easy to touch up the face and edge of and is what I would suggest as L&R turning tools for a beginner.

I assume that your tools are ground the same as other suppliers of similar sets and singles and do wonder how suitable the 20deg top rake of the chip breaker is as a general purpose "one tool for everything" I pity the beginner who tries that on their first Stuart 10 started engine castings.

J

[OuBallieParticipant @ouballie]

OH BOTHER! BOTHER! BOTHER!

Placed an order with Arc yesterday BEFORE the new toolbit sets appeared on their site, as mention here.

A well, will have to do another then.

Geoff – Workshop today

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Posted by JasonB on 14/09/2013 10:46:54:I started off with a set like this

I see you have one missing from that set. I always have one missing as well – the one I need to use

Russell.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Its not quite the set I wa slooking for. Thats from a Unimat SL, mine was from a 3 and slightly different boring bar which I have lost, still use the HSS sometimes, must be a good bit of steel as they were bought 30yrs ago.

Which does beg the question is how good is the HSS on these cutters when you can buy a full set or 7-8 cutters for the same price as an Eclipse blank?

J

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Jason,

Sorry Jason, I did not mean to suggest that you were advocating indexable cutters for beginners. I was just suggesting their limitations/shortcomings for the beginner. It just came out the wrong way.

I agree that our sets are similar to the ones offered by others.

I also take on board your comments about the beginner starting their first Stuart 10. You are also right about the 20deg top rake. If I was able to buy it without, I would have considered it.

At the end of the day, every beginner has to start somewhere. Your suggestion of buying one tool from Chronos and seeing how they get on is great. This is still better than starting off with a blank and not knowing what to do.

For me, it makes scene to buy the blanks and grinding your own shape. But for the beginner to even make a shape, without any education or help can be daunting.

Ketan.

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

The lnger than usual length of the cutting edge chipbreaker groove on the Arc lH & RH tools suggests they are designed to be sharpened very easily by beginners – just take a bit off the end, maintaining the front rake.

Will leave a sharp corner, but a few strokes with a stone can correct that.

Don't forget, most beginners will be using these tools for cuts of 1mm or less.

Neil

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by JasonB on 14/09/2013 10:59:26:

Its not quite the set I wa slooking for. Thats from a Unimat SL, mine was from a 3 and slightly different boring bar which I have lost, still use the HSS sometimes, must be a good bit of steel as they were bought 30yrs ago.

Which does beg the question is how good is the HSS on these cutters when you can buy a full set or 7-8 cutters for the same price as an Eclipse blank?

J

Good question Jason,

I do know that before we started to stock these (yesterday), I have been directing beginners for about five to six years to Chronos, who also sell these, and so far, I have failed to hear a complaint from anyone to whom I had made this suggestion. Before you say anything – it is true that a beginner will not know the difference between the quality of an Eclipse blank or one of these. However, they all get results, good, bad or ugly. Also, how many beginners will be able to afford an Eclipse blank and know how to deal with it once they have one in their hands?

We have been selling Chinese blanks for over ten years now. So far no complaint for the price at which we are selling them. (I bet now that I have said this, we will get a complaint on Monday). Now we are selling them pre-ground. I am sure that some of the shapes/top rake etc., may creat an issue, but we wait and see.

Ketan.

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

 

Which does beg the question is how good is the HSS on these cutters when you can buy a full set or 7-8 cutters for the same price as an Eclipse blank?

J

I forgot to add, I dont know how good the HSS on these cutters is in comparison to the Eclipse blank. At the end of the day, hopefully it does the job at at least a fifth of the price of an Eclipse blank, which should be good enough for a beginner. Once the beginner is used to a pre-ground 'economical' HSS tool/set, it is up to him/her to try out an Eclipse blank and compare.

The only place I have a comparison with Eclipse is with a magnetic chuck, and there I can honestly say that what we sell is equal to or better than a like to like Eclipse magnetic chuck!

K

Edited By Ketan Swali on 14/09/2013 11:32:02

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

I have three tool holders that I started with, left, right, and straight, they are for 1/4" sq HSS tool steel, and they do most of my work. I have got other HSS tooling, from 5/16", to 5/8", got that stuff at the local second hand shop for about $NZ 1 each piece. I'v also made a couple from old HSS flat bits found by the railway track, there's a photo of one of those in my album. This tool was mostly roughed out with the angle grinder. Ian S C

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