Help recommend a milling machine?

[richard1989Participant @richard1989]

Hello all. I apologise for such a broad question, only there is so much out there and I really don’t have the knowledge to make an informed choice.

For reference, I have a small workshop that is used part / full time for my forging work. I frequently do machining, accurate drilling, slots are essential and the ability to face material would be great.

A bridgport would be too large, and would not fit. As a teenager / young adult I had a micro mill / drill machine. It was OK at some things back then, but also absolutely infuriating with it’s limitations and lack of power.

To throw some examples out there, I’ve seen myford vmf, vmb machine’s. Warco VMC seems quite similar? It would fit in the space, just, but would require some breaking down to get it in (but then would for moving anyway).

I have approx 7″ ish slab, which is decades old, so I presume it would be fine with the weight of these?

Any opinion on these, or what else I should look out for? I am in former Middlesex and would need to collect with a van due to access.

If you have any advise it would be appreciated!

Thank you,

Richard

[DiogenesParticipant @diogenes]

A VMC would be fine, they break down easily into manageable lumps – if you are mostly fabricating and intend some serious drilling it’s one of the few times I’d probably say ‘buy one with a morse-taper spindle’.

The later (and larger) Warco Major/RF30 ‘mill/drills’ aren’t a bad machine for the kind of work you describe either – and should be cheaper.

Both have belt reduction so plenty of torque where it’s needed, I think the Major has a bigger work envelope and longer quill travel – the VMC has a ‘knee’ and is more stable and accurate.

[richard1989Participant @richard1989]

Thank you for the feedback, appreciated! I should perhaps elaborate that I forge kitchen knives and so there are several more intricate parts that require slot milling and precise drilling. If I could face off Materials that would also be welcome. I use a fly press, rolling mill, and prefer to make my own tooling and such, so a mill that is as capable as possible would be welcome

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

How small is your workshop Richard?   Mine isn’t big enough for a Bridgeport, but measuring showed a Warco WM18 would fit sensibly allowing space for a bench, lathe, bandsaw, hand-tools, accessories, access, and storage.   All without blocking the doors and window!

The WM18 is largest member of a similar family, with an 1100W motor.  Weighs in at 220kg, so requires a stand. Easily moved on my own with an engine crane, but think about weight, and be aware mills and lathes are very top heavy, just waiting for a chance to topple over!

The WM14 would fit on a bench/  It’s 60kg with a 600W motor, and a two man lift for the younger me (not now!).   The family layout is almost identical, the difference being the size of work they’ll accommodate, plus the bigger models are more rigid and have more power.   Rectangular column rather than round, which I think is good.

Similar available from suppliers other than Warco, of whom I have only good experience to report.

I highly recommend a DRO, because they transform milling.  Mine is fitted with a pair of rge cheapest possible single head units, which refuse to go wrong so I can replace them with a nice eye-level display like that in the photo:

How tall are you?  I’m a shade under 6′ and find reaching for the top hand wheel to be a stretch.  A shorter person would find the WM16 more comfy.  Or motorise it!

From what you’ve said, doesn’t sound as if a big rigid mill is needed.  Though bigger is always better unless you specialise in small work/

Warco are in Hampshire just off the A3, not far as the crow flies from Middlesex, which might suit.  London’s clogged roads are a right pain though…

Dave

[Gary WoodingParticipant @garywooding25363]

If you can find one,  a Centec II with a vertical head would be ideal.

Gary

[Diogenes]

On Diogenes Said:

A VMC would be fine, they break down easily into manageable lumps – if you are mostly fabricating and intend some serious drilling it’s one of the few times I’d probably say ‘buy one with a morse-taper spindle’.

The later (and larger) Warco Major/RF30 ‘mill/drills’ aren’t a bad machine for the kind of work you describe either – and should be cheaper.

Both have belt reduction so plenty of torque where it’s needed, I think the Major has a bigger work envelope and longer quill travel – the VMC has a ‘knee’ and is more stable and accurate.

I agree with the above apart apart from – ‘buy one with a morse-taper spindle’. If you want a drilling machine buy a drilling machine, if you want a milling machine get one with a R8 spindle!

Tony

[Hugh Stewart-Smith 1Participant @hughstewart-smith1]

hello Richard,

We’re in East London if that would be more convenient for you. If you check out the Amadeal banner just below, you can get an idea of our stock. Might suit!

Hugh                                                                                                                             Amadeal Ltd

[IanTParticipant @iant]

I’m not entirely sure what size/type of mill you are after Richard (but as no one else has mentioned them) ARC Euro Trade still seem to have stock of the Seig SX3 showing on their website.

Although their off 30% machinery deal has now ended I believe (but it might be worth checking with them) the price currently given on the ARC website is still a good deal less than that of the WM18 and they are not so dissimilar in size. ARC are of course in the process of closing down but you may want to check them out.

Regards,

 

IanT

[cogdobblerParticipant @cogdobbler]

I know a chap with a SIEG SX3 and he is very pleased with it. Made a 9 cylinder radial engine on it with no dramas. It seems a good machine from what I have seen and definitely worth a look. Especially if you can get one from ARC Eurotrade in “closing down sale” mode.

[DurhambuilderParticipant @durhambuilder]

Don’t underestimate the size of mill you might need. I have a Warco VMC which is an excellent bit of kit and probably as large as the ‘typical’ model engineer would go however it has surprisingly little working room in use. The photo shows a small casting in a three jaw chuck on a rotary table, not an unreasonable set up but with the table wound right down and the quill right up there is insufficient space for even a small drill. Use of a shorter chuck or direct mounting in R8 collets does help but it is frustrating sometimes. Clamping the part direct to the table and using the dro functionality does of course negate having to do this set up but not everyone will have a dro.

[John MCParticipant @johnmc39344]

Have you considered an ex-industrial machine, in particular the Herbert 0V?  Small, heavily built and accurate.  If you are interested PM me.  Considerably cheaper than the machines mentioned so far.

Ps.  Sorry for the blatant advertising.

[old martParticipant @oldmart]

Chester used to sell milling machines like a smaller version of a Bridgeport.

[HOWARDTParticipant @howardt]

While a Sieg machine or similar would do what you want, I had a SX3, but I feel they are light for prolonged use. Having considered a Bridgeport a smaller VMC or one of the heavier machines from the likes of Warco may be a better option. Consider the motor power, metal removal rates are directly proportional to motor power. I now use a Warco GH with digital readout far exceeds the stiffness and power of the SX3.

[FulmenParticipant @fulmen]

As a first approximation you can judge the capacity of a mill (or any machine tool) by it’s weight.

[Paul LousickParticipant @paullousick59116]

I used to have a Sieg SX3 and did a lot of work with it building a 6″ traction engine. Under heavy loads I did find that the column would twist slightly and sold it when I started having trouble with the controller boards for the variable speed DC motor. I am in Sydney, Australia and the local agent did not keep spare parts.

I now have an RF-45 mill/drill, made in Taiwan by Rong-Fu which is a slightly bigger mill with a geared and tilting head and 2hp motor. (sold here as a HM-46 mill).  Dovetail column, 31.5mm drilling, 28mm end milling & 80mm face milling capacity.  Weighs 380kg (head and table could be removed for transporting). Had it for about 5 years now with no problems.

 

[Gary Wooding]

On Gary Wooding Said:

If you can find one,  a Centec II with a vertical head would be ideal.

Gary

I agree with Gary – but the Centec, with a factory stand, is a large lump.

I tend to use my Raglan more than my Centec, these days.  The Raglan is small, but a very good machine for its size.  Both of mine have both mechanical and electronic speed control – so possibly regarded as over-kill – but I like that (I have both on my lathe and mills).

[old martParticipant @oldmart]

I always recommend a mill with an R8 spindle size rather than any Morse taper if you have a choice when buying a machine. There are many more R8 tooling choices and it is a proper milling taper fit, wheras all Morse tapers were designed for drilling and so many people get the tooling stuck in the spindle.

[VicParticipant @vic]

I’ve been very pleased with my Warco VMC and as said it breaks down easily. I moved house with mine some years ago and it was very easy with a 1 ton engine hoist. It’s just a shame Warco don’t sell a riser for the head but it’s not really been much of an issue. I’d buy one again over a bench mounted machine any day but then I’ve only used knee mills in the past. Mines 3 Morse taper so I’ve had no issues getting tooling cheaply and it’s been very handy being able to use Morse Taper drill bits with it.

Edit: I’ve not needed to do it but seeing the above example of a lack of Z height, I’ve got a set of Morse Taper finger collets which saves a lot of space compared to a drill chuck.

[old mart]

On old mart Said:

I always recommend a mill with an R8 spindle size rather than any Morse taper if you have a choice when buying a machine. There are many more R8 tooling choices and it is a proper milling taper fit, wheras all Morse tapers were designed for drilling and so many people get the tooling stuck in the spindle.

I would not dismiss a Morse taper as just a method of holding drills in a drilling machine.

I think that the International taper is best for accurate milling machine tooling, a rigid mounting into the spindle nose, that is to say, plenty of surface area to carry the loads imposed by cutting and transferring into the machine structure. Important for accuracy, especially when a number of the machines mentioned in this thread have, in my view, excessive overhang from the bearing that supports the spindle nose.  Also, not “self locking”.  The downside is the relative expense of the system.

A good alternative is the Morse taper, again plenty of contact area and accurate location.   Plenty of low cost tooling is available.  The disadvantage that I am sure will be pointed out is that the taper is “self locking” and needs a tap on the drawbar to release its grip.  I’ve seen it suggested that striking the drawbar to release the taper will damage the spindle bearings or some other feature of the machine, it will not.  If it bothers the owner then fit a self ejecting arrangement.

The problem with the R8 is one of location.  A very short taper and an equally short parallel length.  These are known to wear in heavy use and lose accuracy.   Then there is the key, best described as the bain of the machinists life.  I’ve used Bridgeport type machines that have had the key fail and not replaced, just hope the short taper can transmit the drive to the cutter!

Going back to the previous comment I have quoted, if Morse tapers are for drills, what about the other tooling we use in the tailstocks of our lathes?

[Neil LickfoldParticipant @neillickfold44316]

My recommendation, is to buy the largest you can afford that will fit into your space.  I would not get fixated on things like MT? or R8 or BNT or what ever.  apart from a drill chuck, most work will be done with cutters in a collet system of some type. As long as it has the capacity to make the sized parts you are wanting to create.

For those who do not know alot about machine tools, look at new, with a warranty and a dro installed is a great help from the start. Also having a dro of some type for the quill position is a very big time saver and does reduce alot of basic mistakes at the same time.

Often buying a bundle deal at the time, so include a vice and collets/tool holders for the cutters or drills to be used. Buying bits and pieces latter does make sense too. Usually I find that buying latter, you have to wait for a deal or pay premium to get it sooner.

Planning on projects is the secret, and that helps with you initial goals of what you want to make and the best way to hold and make the parts.

Neil

[not done it yet]

On not done it yet Said:

On Gary Wooding Said:

If you can find one,  a Centec II with a vertical head would be ideal.

Gary

I agree with Gary – but the Centec, with a factory stand, is a large lump.

I tend to use my Raglan more than my Centec, these days.  The Raglan is small, but a very good machine for its size.  Both of mine have both mechanical and electronic speed control – so possibly regarded as over-kill – but I like that (I have both on my lathe and mills).

The Centec II is the smallest one, not the big ole 2B.

[Neil Lickfold]

On Neil Lickfold Said:

My recommendation, is to buy the largest you can afford that will fit into your space.  I would not get fixated on things like MT? or R8 or BNT or what ever…

I agree!

In my opinion the best way to get a good match between tool and job is to start by identifying what the the job is.  Ideally our advice should satisfy Richard’s needs, and not focus on country of origin, new vs second-hand, tapers, brands, and other favourates!  Richard said:

• I have a small workshop that is used part / full time for my forging work. I frequently do machining, accurate drilling, slots are essential and the ability to face material would be great.
• A bridgport would be too large, and would not fit AND I have approx 7″ ish slab, which is decades old.
• I am in former Middlesex and would need to collect with a van due to access.

From that I conclude:

• A medium weight machine that will fit in a van, either directly, or by being taken apart.   The SX3, WM18 and members of that group fit in the back of a van, and the rather bigger VMC takes down.  We should disqualify any machine that won’t go into the back of a van.
• We can also disqualify mills that aren’t within striking distance of Middlesex, because Richard wants to move it himself.  That also suggests keeping the weight down – getting a hefty top-heavy mill in and out of a van is no joke.
• The floor concern also suggests keeping the weight down, though that could be addressed by spreading the load over a larger area with a metal plate.
• Forging is relatively inaccurate, so almost any mill will do.   But Richard doesn’t say how big his forgings are?  Knives are small, anchors are huge!  As he’s in a small home workshop, I guess small work – therefore a WM18 size-ish mill, not much smaller, because Richard would like a Bridgeport.   A mill with large table might be important, or high weight capacity (say above 20kg).   The latter suggests a mill with a knee.
• Richard hasn’t confirmed how much metal he needs to remove or how quickly.  A WM18-like machine will take light intermittent cuts forever.   If grunt work is expected, look to something heavier with a bigger motor, such as a VMC.  Be aware that some consider Bridgeports to be too lightly built for serious work!   Though hobby mills are capable with their limitations, don’t expect them to sustain persistent heavy cutting; that requires a rigid machine with a powerful continuous rated motor.
• Forge work implies metric or imperial doesn’t matter, nor does the taper, or the variety of tooling available.  (So far I haven’t found a tool that isn’t available in MT, but never say never.)   Neil mentions he does most things with a vice and collets – me too!   Drills up to 15mm diameter can easily be held in an ER32 collet, and that may be “good enough”.
• Power supply – Richard should probably avoid the complications and extra expense of a 3-phase supply.  Easier to buy a mill that just plugs into a 13A socket.  New hobby machines, up to Bridgeport size, do this without fuss.  Ex-industrial machines may require a lot of electrical work.

Dave

 

 

 

[HollowpointParticipant @hollowpoint]

The VMC would be a good choice. The space under the quill isn’t such a problem. The setup in Durhambuilder’s post for example could be improved by using the drill bit directly in the spindle using an r8 collet. That would instantly give about 4″ inches more room.

[richard1989Participant @richard1989]

Hello all,

Thank you very much for the thoughtful suggestions, questions and points of research for me. I definitely have a greater sense of direction for this now, so thank you for that.

I recall a couple of decades ago when looking for a lathe the advise someone said was ‘get as big as you can get’, or that sort of sentiment. I think this seems to hold true.

To answer some questions:

• It is small workshop, it was a single garage. Approx 6 x 3 meters internally. I know not ideal, larger would of course be better, but this is also my first house, Liz Truss, not everything is ideal 😬
• I’m just under 6 foot
• Mills are top heavy and want to fall over and kill you – new fear unlocked.
• I do more milling than drilling. I will consider the morse / r8 etc but also just see what machines are available.
• My previous mini mill was some siege variant and I am keen to have something significantly more robust.
• Forging can be relatively inaccurate but knife making does involve relatively precise components in order for things to fit together well. It is not just the end product, it is the processing of iron, steel, copper alloy components, all can require milling and drilling at different times. Then there is tools for other machines that need to be made and maintained.
• Ideally a power feed would be welcome. I presume this I easy to add to most machines afterwards
• 3 phase vs single phase – I added a VFD to my rolling mill, so this wouldn’t particularly put me off, if it were the right machine.
• I am in former Middlesex, there seem to be options not far away. I can’t actually buy immediately as the cost of converting the workshop has been significant – but obviously wish to make this a one time purchase for a significant beast!
• I have an engine hoist, I think 5 tonne. I leaned I needed this for moving my fly press and anvil. I am not a large person 😂

Again, thank you all for the suggestions and thoughts!

[old martParticipant @oldmart]

It always seems to me that the people who recommend mills with Morse taper spindles are just jealous of a proper milling machine spindle. As soon as the museum was given the Tom Senior light vertical, I converted it from MT2 to R8 to match the other mill we have and neither have the stupid little key which is NEVER intended to take drive torque, but make holding the tooling easier while the drawbar is being tightened. We have never regretted not having the keys in the spindles and even R8 collets are no bother as long as the drawbar female thread is free running and lubricated. To get the same stiffness as R8, nothing less than MT4 will do.

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