Hello from a newbie – and questions about a vertical milling slide

[Phil StevensonParticipant @philstevenson54758]

Hi everyone – I'm a raw beginner to metal wrestling although I've been turning wood for 25+ years. I bought a mini lathe a few months ago and have built two little engines (Elmer type things), both of which run although they are a little bit rough around the edges (literally!). I haven't the room or mullah to get a milling machine so I bought a vertical slide from Warco and it seems a solid little thing. I haven't any huge ambitions for milling anything massive, just small pieces of brass and aluminium and I have made a mounting plate to fix the vertical slide to my cross slide. I have lots of pics btw if anyone is interested. First results a re mixed to say the least – very fiddly to set up but my main problem seems to be around stability and holding the work adequately (just a small piece of aluminium). I am using a new cutter in the 3-jaw chuck ( I know I should use a collet but the 3-jaw seems OK so far). Has anyone set up and used a similar slide successfully? Are there any guides on-line I could reference, or anything on Youtube? I've searched but not found much. Also, what speed should I ave the lathe at – it's an 8mm 4 flute cutter? Thanks in advance for any help or advice.

Edit – blow me but as soon as I posted this I saw another thread on just this subject which I will of course study. Any help with specific reference to a mini lathe would still be much appreciated.

Edited By Phil Stevenson on 12/11/2016 10:31:58

[Phil StevensonParticipant @philstevenson54758]

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Hi Phil

If you can post a few of those pics it will help, take a look here:

http://www.model-engineer.co.uk/forums/postings.asp?th=103028&p=2

Neil

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Before I had a mill and had to make do with a vertical slide I used a small machine vice rather than the agricultural looking screw clamps you see on a lot of the vertical slides that are about at the moment. Worked OK for that Minnie in my avitar.

J

[Phil StevensonParticipant @philstevenson54758]

Pics as requested (my photography is about as bad as my metal working). Hope this makes sense. The mounting plate is bolted to the swivelling mount which normally holds the compound; it seems to hold well and allows me to adjust the vertical slide to ensure it is square (I marry it up against the chuck face, then tighten it down – is that a sensible methodology?) The mounting plate already has three mounting positions for the slide to offer me different movement options as the travel of the vertical slide on the x axis is very limited – x-axis is across the bed, yes?

Yes Jason I can already see the benefits of a decent small clamp despite my newly added larger clamps – I'm going to check that out.

Edited By Phil Stevenson on 12/11/2016 12:46:55

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Your methodology is 'near enough' for many. However, after the initial lining up against the chuck, it would be far better, for accuracy of better than perhaps half a mm, to 'fine tune' using an appropriate dial guage. That 'half mm' assumes you get it as close as a 1/4 mm on one mounting and a 1/4 mm the other way, on the next time of mounting.

[Phil StevensonParticipant @philstevenson54758]

Thanks for that tip – yes I will check correct alignment with a dial when I'm making a real part rather than just practising. I don't know if there are many, or any, woodturners on here but it's a different world in terms of accuracy! With wood "about an inch" is often fine – I'm having to learn to get my head around a thou with a piece of metal…

[IanTParticipant @iant]

Hi Phil,

Yes, I certainly used a vertical slide routinely many years ago – and still do sometimes. One quick comment about the 'vice' supplied with many of these Chinese slides. They tend to consist of two blocks that clamp into vertical T-slots in the slide and then have clamping screws that work directly on the work or via a clamping piece. The problem is that as you tighten up the clamping screws, the two blocks get pushed along the T-Slots – so a) it upsets their setting and b) it doesn't clamp the work too securely either.

The simple solution is to use a small vice as Jason suggests above – or (as I did) make a backing plate with two rows of parallel holes in it to stop the blocks being pushed apart in the T-slots.

With regards to feeds and speeds, we (amateurs) can normally afford to take things easy, so don't run too fast and take only gentle cuts. A vertical slide will never be as rigid as a milling machine and it should be treated accordingly. So my advice would be to practice on some 'scrap' material and see what seems to give you the best results in terms of finish and accuracy. I don't know what you were trying to 'mill' but I would also suggest that fly-cutting will give you a pretty good finish, uses easy (to keep sharp) tooling and won't generally stress your lathe & slide as much as multi-tooth cutters might.

Regards,

IanT

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

Make sure your lathe saddle is clamped solid when working, lifting of the saddle is a big problem. Ridgidity is a big problem when using the lathe for milling. Invest in a collet set if you are going to do a lot of work.

Clive

[Phil StevensonParticipant @philstevenson54758]

Ian / Clive, thanks for your input. Ian, I'm not sure I quite understand your backing plate – have you got a pic by any chance? Yes, I think my milling will generally be flat surfaces so a fly cutter may well be the best option in many cases – another project for me! Clive, I'm aware of the solidity issue of the saddle on the mini lathe and I believe there is an upgrade on Youtube by Steve Jordan which I must investigate further. My efforts at set up are attempts at having the cutter milling down an edge – ie pushing the workpiece down on to the saddle rather than pulling up. Again, apologies if that isn't clear but I'm trying to apply Steve Jordan's logic of minimising any force that exacerbates the instability of the saddle.

Again, thanks for the help – it's is so useful for me to get advice like this when I'm fumbling along on my own!

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Very similar to my setup.

I made a raising block so I could use the full travel of the slide without it hitting.

I also made an extra block with two 2BA hex screws that slide in the t-slots (fairly close fit). This lets me have a 'vice' with two jaws rather than the jacking screws pushing direct on the work.

Vice:

RAISING BLOCK:

Raising block on rotating base – the fence on the back of the slide aligns it with the raising block, the edges of the cross-slide are accurate enough that you can align block (and therefore vertical slide) using a protractor (for an angle) or a square

Finally, in action with a home-made FC3 cutter holder:

[Phil StevensonParticipant @philstevenson54758]

That's great Neil, really useful. Many thanks.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

When you have the end mill held in the chuck jaws you have hardened steel against hardened steel so grip can be a problem and the cutter might move. Wrap a piece of paper around the shank or use bits of aluminium can interposed to provide grip.

If you have a faceplate you can make a flycutter by mounting a tool in a small square block bolted to a slot at the desired radius and a balancing weight on the other side,

[IanTParticipant @iant]

Hi Phil,

Sorry just noticed your question about the backing plate. My (Chinese) slide is probably a bit bigger than the one Neil is showing in his pics but has the same basic design of two blocks that are attached to the slide face by T-Nuts that run in the vertical T-Slots. My experience was that the action of clamping the work (using the three clamping bolts in Neil's set-up) tended to force these two blocks apart, thus weakening the clamping action and also upsetting the work setting.

So my solution was to make a thin (2-3mm) backing plate with two vertical rows of holes drilled in it (sized just clearance for the T-bolts) spaced vertically about every 25mm and matched in width to the slides T-slots – such that the T-Bolts (and blocks) are held in position and cannot be forced sideways (e.g. up or down). I'm afraid I cannot find the plate at the moment as the vertical slide is generally used for something else these days and when I do use it as intended, I now use a small vice that fits it quite nicely, thus avoiding the problem… but it's just a square plate with two rows of holes drilled in it…

It may be that you will not experience this issue with your slide – but if you do this is a quick and simple solution to the problem – as any scrap plate will do the job and it will be cheaper than just buying a new vice, when there may be (nearly always are) other things that you might want (or even need) first…

Hope this helps

Regards,

IanT

[Phil StevensonParticipant @philstevenson54758]

Ian, thanks a lot for this tip. I've spent some time today making a simple little flycutter and playing with the vertical slide. It works(!) but again the workpiece (15mm square aluminium) wouldn't hold particularly well for the reason you highlight. The three bolts in the top block just shove everything out of alignment as you have to keep snugging them up. Your idea of a backing plate seems an excellent solution (I hope!) and I'll definitely give it a go. The more I think about it the more I feel a little vice is the right answer but I'll wait for the next show as I like to have a proper fondle of these things before I commit! I'll add some pics when I have something presentable.

[IanTParticipant @iant]

Pleased to help Phil.

You will need to think carefully about choosing your vice with respect to one that can attach using the slides T-Slots, other wise you might need an adaptor plate to attach it. Also, too big a vice will also further limit the vertical travel you can achieve in practice, which is important in the diameter of bar you can centre for drilling for instance. It's often useful to think outside of the box and try alternatives – for instance using one of the T-slots effectively as a 'V' block and the other one for working holding clamps – the work being held vertically. Two parallel bars clamped horizontally at the bottom of the slide can also act as a V and help clamp larger work across the slide – although the clamps may get in the way of some milling operations.

There's no doubt a mill makes life much easier but with a bit of thought you can usually find a way to use the vertical slide for a lot of things. Good luck with your new adventures in metal bashing!

Regards,

IanT

[andrew lynerParticipant @andrewlyner71257]

I did a forum search and came upon this thread. Very useful for me as my needs and resources are along the lines of the OP. Some useful tips there.

I have a couple of questions that I'm sure people could clear up for me. Firstly, compatibility. It looks as though the slide in the pictures uses the same circular plate mounting as the compound. (Warco super mini lathe) would I be right that any vertical slide would do, as long as it tells me it's for mini lathe? Also should it rotate? There seems to be a strange lack of dimension drawings in the advert I read. Even a photo if the underside of a slide would give me a clue about how it's fixed to the cross slide.

Secondly, there are vertical slides for Myford etc that have their own 'tilt and turn' adjustments. These are more expensive but, If I went for one, am I correct in thinking that I should need to make up my own fixing plate?

And, as, i'm here, I may as well ask for opinions about collet chucks and milling tools. I will need minimal range of sizes – enough for small dovetails and shallow slots. Buying one at a time can be perceived as bad value but so is buying a large set with bits that are never used. It's such a shame that the corner shop with useful tools has disappeared. I can't locate a single one in Essex, where we moved recently.

PS "Why don't you buy a proper mill?" is a likely response. If I find that I cannot get by without one then the finances and space may appear for it and I can always sell any slide that I buy initially.

 

 

Edited By andrew lyner on 01/10/2018 10:16:09

[Steve CrowParticipant @stevecrow46066]

Just a warning. I bought a similar slide a couple of years ago. I think it was from RDG but I'm not sure.

It had no end of problems. The top plate was angled about 10 degrees off squareness the holes a been drilled in the wrong position. This caused the leadscrew to be well off centre in relation to the nut.

Also the brass gib angle was out by 15 degrees rendering it pretty useless.

I had to remake pretty much all the parts except for the body and the table.

I also added a thrust bearing and a capstan drive thingy.

In retrospect I should have sent it back. The ones I handled at the RGD stall at Ally Pally seemed fine.

You can see it in this picture.

Anybody else had similar problems with this slide?

[IanTParticipant @iant]

Hi Andrew,

Quite interesting to read back these old threads sometimes. I'm afraid I don't have a Warco (e.g. Sieg) lathe – so cannot answer that part of your question directly. However – unless the vertical slide has been made specifically for use on the lathe you are fitting it to – then you will probably find that some form of adaptor plate will be required (simply to match the holes in the vertical slide to the cross-slide). In fact it can sometimes be useful to make an adaptor plate anyway – to avoid needing to tighten a couple of T-nuts too much on the cross-slide for instance (by using more nuts & spreading that load) or to lift the vertical slide so that more movement is available when a vice is fitted.

My Chinese Vertical slide had a swivel base (single axis) but I cannot immediately recall ever using it – usually bolting the slide directly to my myford (S7) adaptor plate. Nor would I be very keen of those (Myford type) slides that rotate in several axis. The vertical slide mounted on the cross-slide is already fairly flexible in nature without introducing other flex points/joints (others may disagree with me on this though).

I might also mention that before I had a vertical slide, I used to do quite a bit with a simple DIY angle plate bolted to my (original Lorch lathe) cross-slide – which became peppered with bolt holes – with various thickness of packing pieces to set the work piece height or adjust it by a known amount. Sounds crude but it worked pretty well.

You ask about collet chucks – and I am a very firm fan of ER collets (I have both ER 16 & 32 sets) but always advise folk to fit the back-plate type ER chuck (as opposed to an MT mounted type). This will let you pass work through the chuck & spindle if you are work holding with it (which I often do) as well as adjust it for absolute truth (just in case it isn't true as it comes) and moving it to another machine – should that machine have a different MT tapered spindle for instance.

If you intend to use the ER chuck just for milling – the above is still good advice but you may only require a few collets that will take the cutters you need to use – so buy them as required I think…. I still have a few still in their wrappers after some years…

And yes – it's very common to expect everybody own a mill these days but much wonderful work was done before their ownership by home machinists was common. It may not always be as convenient to use a lathe-only approach but sometimes space & money will determine this for some folk (and in practice you might not really use or need it that often either – everyone has different needs).

Anyway – coffee break/lunch is just about over – so I'd better get on with something "really useful" before my Manager gets upset.

Regards,

IanT

Edited By IanT on 01/10/2018 13:11:10

[IanTParticipant @iant]

Phew! Just posted a reply and then saw Steve's photo above – and thought for a moment that I'd had a Senior Moment and just posted my reply to the wrong thread….

ianT

[Steve CrowParticipant @stevecrow46066]

That's probably my fault Ian. I've posted the same picture twice today in reply to different threads!

Steve

[IanTParticipant @iant]

No problem Steve – it's a good photo to share – but it did startle me (and fortunately my wife didn't hear the expletive!)

Regards,

IanT

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