Filing Machine Construction

[Harold Hall 1Participant @haroldhall1]

Sorry Neil , I should have also added you to my thanks comment.

Harold

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Harold,

Thank you for the copious detail of your Filing Machine

[on your website, as linked above]

My personal requirement is for machine smaller than either yours, or the MLA-18 … to take something like Needle Files. I shall probably therefore mix&match ideas from the two designs, at a suitable scale.

MichaelG.

[Harold Hall 1Participant @haroldhall1]

MichaelG

Were you aware that Stan Bray showed a very small filing machine in issue 4 of MEW though now having looked at it find it does not include any drawings. I know it appears in at least one of his books and probably has the drawings in there.

Harold

[Harold Hall 1Participant @haroldhall1]

MichaelG

Were you aware that Stan Bray showed a very small filing machine in issue 4 of MEW though now having looked at it find it does not include any drawings. I know it appears in at least one of his books and probably has the drawings in there.

Harold

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Thanks Harold,

I will have a look at that one too.

MichaelG.

.

I see that Issue 4 featured one of the infamous "Free Pull-Out Plans" 

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 29/09/2012 13:02:58

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 29/09/2012 13:04:09

[modeng2000Participant @modeng2000]

It is in 'Useful Workshop Tools' WPS No.31

John

[Jeff DaymanParticipant @jeffdayman43397]

Hi Harold,

To address your points one by one – first of all I am not affiliated in any way with the company that make and sell the the MLA-18 units casting or drawings. I did buy a partly made one and finished it, but later sold it as I just did not have room for it, and accomplished jobs that were to be done by it by other means. When I built mine I made it with a file socket to suit up to 3/8" sq files as I had a stock of machine files (intended and made in USA for use in die filers) both 1/4" and 3/8" square, round and half round from the scrap bin at a sheetmetal stamping die shop I worked at years ago. These files were all DoAll or Federal brand, made in USA.

I agree long flat edges would be challenging to do with most die filers but for any such work I do, the belt sander or various grinders are used. Die filers excel at filing small pockets with square corners and suchlike. I built an EDM machine a few years ago to do most of those jobs. (EDM was the Ben Fleming design, not the recent Walker one in MEW). I don't see where your design would be any better than other die filers at long edges curved or not.

The issue of dirt entry to the oscillating mechanism is important if the machine is to last. Iron filings trapped between the posts and bearing with your design being open could become a major issue causing wear with heavy use. The MLA-18 and most commercial die filers are enclosed with oil bath around the mechanism and have a deflector cone on the reciprocating shaft to help deflect dirt away from the vertical bushing.

I am in Canada and have no idea if MLA-18 castings would be available in UK. Chances are if you contact the company in Pennsylvania they could figure a way to work out payment and shipping to UK, but at considerable cost I would expect. However the unit is quite simple and as I mentioned one could be easily fabricated with some electric welded scrap steel plate bar and tube. For those with access to a scrapyard the steel or cast iron differential case from a scrap 1960's RWD car or small truck (or a reciprocating type water pump) would be a good starting place for a steel article of roughly the right shape for the main case, with bushes added and lugs/base welded on as needed.

The sawing issue to me is a moot point. I use a bandsaw or hacksaw if I need to saw something. I have never seen a commercial die filer used or even equipped for sawing, although I have seen a few with a top guide attachment to keep the file at the desired angle. This was important in their original use to file sheetmetal stamping dies at exactly square in the cutting land but relieved at an angle below, usually 1/4 to 1/2 degree. Before EDM and Wire EDM die openings with square corners inside had to be either filed with a die filer or split into open cavities and ground with a profile grinder. Almost lost arts in the western world these days, these processes were fading fast when I started in industry 30 years ago and wre EDM and sink EDM were coming in fast.

A word of thanks for your many articles over the years Harold, I always read and enjoy them.

Best regards JD

Edited By Jeff Dayman on 30/09/2012 01:14:35

Edited By Jeff Dayman on 30/09/2012 01:19:20

Edited By Jeff Dayman on 30/09/2012 01:20:18

[Harold Hall 1Participant @haroldhall1]

May I first thank you Jeff for your comments regarding my articles in MEW, also those regarding filing machines with which I have little disagreement, other than the degree of their relevance in the majority of home workshops. Because of that, I would like to make some points which I consider, for the one attempting to make one, to more home workshop biased.

Incidentally, the filer was as a result of a request to the magazine for one to be constructed in the home workshop. It had therefore to be a design that the vast majority could make.

You mention that the mechanism should ideally be in an oil bath, but such a design would make it a non starter for very many home workshop owners. Leaving out the VSM (variable stroke mechanism), easy, it can even be made without a milling machine.

I agree that the open nature of the design permits the entry of filings and will reduce is working life, especially if not cleaned after heavy use. I have though looked at mine which was used extensively for a clock being made and the amount of filings in the important areas is very small. The VSM can be easily removed by the removal of four very accessible screws when access for cleaning becomes easy.

We have to consider when items are made in the home workshop the degree of use that they are likely to get. Typically, when I purchased my Mill Drill, with no spare cash then available I had to make a cutter chuck to suit screwed shank cutters, This was made using normal mild steel and had just turned surfaces, 22 years later it is still working as well as the day it was made. However, if it had been in use in an industrial environment it would have been consigned to the scrap bin very soon.

Whether my design is better than others at long edges, curved or straight, I was not commenting generally, but specifically about the MLA-18, surely it will be less difficult with a 1/2” wide file than the 1/4” file that that machine uses. The suggestion of using belt sanders where straight lines are being worked to will be valid in some cases but many will not have a belt sander, I don't, and of course will not work on enclosed edges.

With regard to using the machine for sawing, I have contact with one contributor to MEW who owns a commercially made machine and who tells me that he probably uses the machine more for sawing than filing. If one goes to my website and clicks on the link in the bottom right hand paragraph this takes you to an American workshop owners site who on the page has a link to a manual for a commercial filer. The front page states, It Files, It Saws, It Hones.

My web page also shows the skeleton clock I have made and for which the filing machine was used extensively.

If visitors to this thread have read this to the end, and I hope so. May I say that I am not saying that Jeff is wrong and I am right, far from it. If then you are considering making a filing machine than do study both viewpoints, making a choice on the type of work it is likely to undertake and the degree of use it will get. Also of course, balancing this with the workshop facilities you have available for the task.

Harold

[Jeff DaymanParticipant @jeffdayman43397]

Hi Harold, to quote:

"You mention that the mechanism should ideally be in an oil bath, but such a design would make it a non starter for very many home workshop owners. Leaving out the VSM (variable stroke mechanism), easy, it can even be made without a milling machine"

How does an oil bath make a machine a "non starter"? It only involves a shaft seal on the drive shaft to bushing joint and a gasket or o-ring on the back cover. Neither of these elements use hard to machine features to fit them, and both are cheap and commercially available at any industrial supply. In a pinch, graphited yarn could serve as a makeshift oil seal and paper gasket could be used to contain the oil but possibly with a bit of seepage. Certainly less complex than say a locomotive lubricator or piston rod gland, as many ME and MEW readers have made these types of parts

A vent to atmosphere (with the open end pointing downwards) is a good idea to include with any closed oil bath to prevent any positive pressure building up inside the case which could tend to drive oil outward causing seeps. The vent eliminates the need for a seal on the vertical shaft to bushing joint, as gravity keeps the oil in (if it is a closely fitted long bronze bushing).

One note on the variable stroke mechanism – why is that needed? I have never used a die filer with such a mechanism and I can't say I missed it. In fact the wear on machine files would in theory be equalized over all the teeth if full stroke were used but local file wear could occur if only part of the full file length were used with a variable stroke device.

I also forgot to mention your skeleton clock is a fine looking one. Very nicely made, well done!

Best regards Jeff Dayman

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

Like a lot of lubricated devices that run slowly (relatively) the oil bath does not need to be deep, as long as the crank pin dips into the oil then its fine. Oil leaks are minimised that way.

Clive

[Jeff DaymanParticipant @jeffdayman43397]

That's a good point Clive, thanks.

An oil drain hole and plug is a handy feature too, an oil change is a good idea every so often (not needed too frequently with a filer).

JD

[Harold Hall 1Participant @haroldhall1]

Thank you Jeff for your reply but I think that you are falling into the trap that other do. That is, expecting that others know more about a subject than they actually do. Perhaps also assuming that home workshops are better equipped than they are.

For my part, I had only seen a filing machine working during my apprenticeship when having to go into the tool room occasionally, that was about 64 years ago. I had forgotten all about them until David C requested an article in MEW and which I foolishly offered.

When I searched the web, I was surprised that there was little to be had on the subject, pictures of old commercial machines and one firm who made files giving the files a mention, but not much more. Nothing about machine speeds or stroke length. I got round the speed aspect by powering it by my lathe as this had a wide range of speeds and stroke length by making this variable so that I could experiment.

I do accept that this is probably superfluous and I do mention that it can be omitted easily. Perhaps I should make that point more positively on my website.

With regard to the oil bath, perhaps Non Starter was an exaggeration, though I go back to my comment about workshop facilities. You mentioned in an earlier post the use of welding to provide the bath. I have a welder but am absolutely useless at the task, a large number of workshops, probably most, do not even have the facility. On the design side I would be lost if attempting to include such a feature. You mention a locomotive lubricator, what does this look like I have to say, such is my limited knowledge.

You have an experience of these machines and appear to come from a metalworking background, for my part, my working life was in multi motor very high power variable speed drive systems with very complex control systems to go with them.

I came to metalworking by accident, a car accident. Whilst off work for something to do I wrote an article regarding a milling cutter chuck I had made, just one of only three things I had made in my very recent move to home metalworking. The article was sent to MEW, recently started, who asked if I had more. I sent the other two and from there was offered the job of editor, which I did not like and gave up after 3-1/2 years. You see Jeff I am very much a beginner when it comes to metalworking, cabinet making being my preferred pastime but the bungalow is already too full.

Please Jeff be assured, I am not trying to be clever, honestly, but perhaps with your knowledge of these machines you could consider providing a design for a more professional item, I am sure David C would welcome it. If though he already has one I am sure he will make that clear here.

Many thanks for the comment regarding the clock.

Harold

[Jeff DaymanParticipant @jeffdayman43397]

Hi Harold,

Well you are quite right, I could easily fall into the trap about assuming others' knowledge of a subject and assuming that someone making tooling would have some form of electric welding or at least access to someone who does. I only have my own experience and equipment, and local situation as a reference. You have far more experience than I do writing to the wider audience, no argument about that.

Here in Canada electric welders of various kinds have become quite affordable and many mechanically minded people have them in their garages and sheds and barns. If you want to make something and can't weld it yourself you can almost always find someone or ask around to find friends of friends who can. In my neighbourhood I am unfortunately this pressed-into-service go-to guy for all things metal and broken to be welded, much of it that should be scrapped! I've seen some amazing vehicles, models, tools and implements tinkered up by farmers and hobbyists from scrap car parts and scrap bits of plate and tube with a hacksaw and welder (and made plenty of stuff in that vein myself). I've also seen some welding that is bad beyond belief, but also some amazing home shop welding with rudimentary equipment. With a lot of long practice my own welding skills with electric stick welding are now presentable and stuff holds together well. Stick welded fabrication is fast and inexpensive vs multiple bolts/screws. Of course for a die filer housing probably silver solder or bronze welding/brazing would also do fine, as stresses are fairly low.

I do come from a metal working background having grown up in a car garage family business and having to make and repair pretty much everything we needed. Later there was college and professional manufacturing training then on to a full career working in various toolrooms and design offices. My main professional expertise is mould and die design and product design for plastics. I have been making and designing metal work, tooling and models from age 10 or so. Never was much good at fine woodwork although I can hold my own with it and get what's required in wood together in a sturdy if not pretty way.

The motors and drives/control field (forgive the pun) is a very wide one and must be an interesting career. It is still a busy and evolving part of the industrial world. The recent developments in high power AC motors and drives are quite amazing as seen on cranes and ships etc. and then of course there is the resurgence of interest in electric automotive drive systems. Some of them are very sophisticated.

I have no interest in writing for MEW, as the few exchanged words I have had over the years with Mr.Clark have not been especially positive, so an article is not likely to happen any time soon. I would limit my comments on die filers to what has been said already re the MLA-18 filer and my various suggestions on how a similar one could be made. I'm sure many people have built or will build a filer to your design or maybe to the Bray one. The detailed drawings on your website will be a great resource to those building your filer. There's lots of food for thought for prospective builders in all the words so far in this thread, also, so it is likely builders will be able to figure something out that works, which is the name of the game of course. Good luck to all, happy filing.

Best regards JD

[Harold Hall 1Participant @haroldhall1]

Thanks Jeff for your latest post, interesting.

You mention that welders are now more affordable and this is certainly the case in the UK and no doubt generally. This though has probably made them even rarer, proportionately, in the home workshop as so are lathes and milling machines cheaper. This has enabled many more to stretch their budget a little and start up new workshops with just a mini lathe and milling machine, welding being well down the list for other items. Another indication is that welding rarely appears in construction projects in the magazine, perhaps that is a shame. More such projects would encourage more to acquire the equipment and skill required.

If nothing else of good has come out of our thoughts on this thread, it has prompted me to rethink my approach to the variable stroke assembly. Whilst I have repeatedly said that it could be left out to simplify the machines manufacture, I have now decided to provide a drawing for the part that would make this possible. Then to explain more fully why it was there in the first place (to let me test the machine with differing lengths) suggesting that most should take the easier option. Thanks Jeff

Harold

[Jeff DaymanParticipant @jeffdayman43397]

Hi Harold – you have a private message – I sent along a few thoughts about welding.

Best regards JD

[PekkaNFParticipant @pekkanf]

Hi, just one random point of "hot work" like welding, grinding and such: In many (European) countries hot work is coming less and less acceptable in small industry and at home. One reason is building regulation and insurance.

I have small garage and there is absolutely no reasonable way I can weld/grind there and comply with my insurance company. I use carbide inserts most of the time. If I have to grind or weld I drag all stuff outside of my house and do welding outside. Usually it rains, snows or is least windy.

My brother got hot work licence from the work and this will have an adverse effect on possible insurance claims should anything happen in his garage (home).

Another thing is most of the repair shops are dropping the use of angle grinders and such and tool shops are selling more and more reciprocating saws and such "cold" equipment. E.G. you take your car to shop for a exhaust pipe/muffler work and they don't have welding machine or angle grinders anymore.

Pekka

[MICHAEL WILLIAMSParticipant @michaelwilliams41215]

Design of of filing machine :

(1) File held at the top . Drive system at the top . Ordinary files used . File drops down through hole in plain table .

(2) Table or Drive system has rise and fall mechanism to allow file change and to engage/release workpiece .

(3) Rise and fall mechanism has both fine adjustment and quick release .

(4) Drive has an element of slow cut – quick return motion using offset crank . Optional variable stroke will allow some types of filing in blind holes .

(5) Add compound table instead of plain table and same machine becomes a slotter .

(6) Add stronger/slower drive capability and same machine becomes a broacher .

Regards ,

Michael Williams .

[Author]

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