Filing Machine Construction

[Fred TownroeParticipant @fredtownroe25083]

[Fred TownroeParticipant @fredtownroe25083]

I was very excited to see the filing machine project by Harold Hall that began in MEW issue 161.  It was a good project that I thought was within my capabilities.  My excitement turned to frustration when I started to read the articles and reached the description of the Oscillating Assembly and File Carrier.  I am  confused about how to construct these  assemblies that have no dimensions listed.  I feel that the author has given the readers ( at least the beginners ) too much credit.  I am by no means an expert but do enjoy working in my shop every day and have created a large volume of projects with good  result. I have subscribed to Home Shop Machinist and The Machinist Workshop for many years and am used to projects that have complete materiels lists and dimensioned drawings for each project.  Since Mr. Hall reasoned after the fact that the project would benefit from work hold-downs ( issue 164 ) I hope that he can see fit to help the less skilled members and add dimensioned drawings for all parts of his excellent project.  I am holding off buying the materiels for this project until I feel that I have enough information to finish it.

[BogstandardParticipant @bogstandard]

Fred,

 

You are not alone in your frustration, but it seems an acceptable thing nowadays for everyone to be expected to have the same amount of knowledge about all subjects, and the same or better quality of machinery and resources as the originator of the articles.

 

For large and complicated articles, I would suspect that the initial build of such items would only be a handful, purely because not all people can understand how a part was made or where to obtain such and such a type of material, or have a kiln in the back of the shop so that you could heat treat it to a certain temperature.

 

These people tend to forget that most of the readers are people with very limited funds and workshop faciltiies, who have no way of replicating what is being shown in the article, so really, is it worth showing the article in the first place?

 

I suppose you could say people will learn a few tips that could be used elsewhere, but when the tips aren’t even shown, or the reader stumbles through the first part of the article before realising there is something he won’t be able to achieve, so then quickly stops reading the article to go to read something he can understand more fully.

 

Usually so much useful information is missing from these articles, that for some, they are unattainable goals, purely because of the reasons stated in my original paragraph. Information must be shown, and techniques must be described in full, otherwise all you will end up with is a book of plans that only a few people can understand and eventually produce the articles described.

 

 I would love to be able to submit articles to magazines, but because I don’t ‘do’ cad or have the facilities to produce technical drawings, I tend to stick with my little fag packet sketches for plans and techniques, and photos for showing ‘how I did it’ for posting onto web sites. Then if people don’t understand something, in almost real time, they can query what has been done and get an answer almost as quickly.

 

Whereas with a magazine article, if the info isn’t there, it can be months before the question is asked and answered, by which time, the original enthuiasm for the build has waned, and the person is now looking at other things that he can properly understand and produced.

 

So for all those highly technical people who write these build articles, please remember, most of the people you are aiming it at don’t have all your expertise and most probably facilities either, so take a little time to describe things in more detail and in laymans terms. Read through your article and imagine yourself as a ‘newbie’ reading it for the first time. If you can do that, you might realise just how little information you have actually given to build what is most probably a very complicated item.

 

 

We can only hope

 

Bogs

Edited By Bogstandard on 01/06/2010 01:11:24

[modeng2000Participant @modeng2000]

Bogs,

 

I continue to be amazed at the amount of articles some authors produce and wonder if they have time to eat and sleep. The thought of having a filing machine is quite attractive and so I have been reading about Harold Halls design. Much like Fred I became less interested on trying to read through the detailed drive mechanism and thought ‘Perhaps another time’.

 

There is a difference between padding out an article to earn more money from page area and providing enough detail about methods of construction and machining techniques together with other helpful notes. I’m sure the Editor can tell the difference!

 

This might not be the place to ask this question but is there an alternative filing machine design available that is sensibly easy to make and produces reliable results?

 

What do you think of filing machines Bogs? Are they a worthwhile investment of time in making one?

 

John

[CirclipParticipant @circlip]

A system used in other branches of “Constructional” hobbies has been the “Star” grading of plans. This gives the prospective constructor some guide to the complexity and skills required to complete the project but relies on the student being honest with himself. I have found Harolds articals to be most informative and easy to understand But, having had a couple of years Injineering experience, I would not be able to comment from a newbies point of view but how “low” do you aim the level of understanding? I use the term “Low”, NOT to insult the beginner but there has to be some realistic bottom line.

 

  To give an example, at what point would one be expected to make a decent “Fist” of a Quorn??  (providing you wanted to learn mass production techniques for ball ended handles) or start producing an injector (Yes I’ve seen the burner series John) but how many don’t want the hassle and go out and buy one?

 

  In “Assisting” a couple of guys, whose day jobs are NOT metal wrangling, when I drop a term they don’t understand, I usually end up giving them a b********g for themselves appologising for not understanding what I’ve said and in this respect, “Skype” is a wonderfull instantaneous tool. When in the past has the layman been able to talk live to the States and hold a C-O-Boggy sketch in front of a webcam to show “Another ” solution? Having said that, Both realise the retort if they ask me how to turn a light switch or water tap on.

 

 We live in an age when knowledge aquisition has NEVER been easier, we don’t even have to make an effort to go to the library (wot’s one of those) a few clicks on a keyboard and you have an encyclopedia at your fingertips but you have to hit the buttons.

 

 Technical people are usually the worst to explain things cos as “Inventors” of the object putting things in laymens terms doesn’t come naturally as they have a glazed view of their “Baby” This applies to both “Designers” and Metal wranglers and this is why errors creep into designs. Harold did a design years ago for a piece of workshop equipment but due to the constraints of being Editor of MEW at the time, had to pass the manufacture of the said lump to someone else to make. Can’t remember there being any faults in the drawing or lack of description on how to make it but again, hardly a “Begginers” project but no erratas a few months later.

 

  “There’s a hole in my bucket dear —-  “

 

  Regards  Ian.

Edited By Circlip on 01/06/2010 09:52:53

[BogstandardParticipant @bogstandard]

John,

 

I was lucky and was given an old but very little used die filer a couple of years ago.

 

I am now losing the ability to hand file things, so it is a real bonus as they are very versatile (at least mine is). I have it fitted with a hacksaw blade at the moment, and to cut up say 20 or 30 1/4″ rods takes no time.  With the right type and sized files (I can use almost any normal file in mine, but upside down) you can easily do very intricate work with them, and they remove metal very fast.

 

Only you can make the decision if you will ever use one.

 

In my situation, it has been a godsend, 

 

If you only do a bit of filing or metal shaping every now and again, then in my opinion, I would spend my time, money and effort making smaller tooling for your machines, where you will get more use out of them.

 

That is what I have been doing over the last couple of years, I now have interchangeable chucks and fixtures that go between my lathe and mill, that saves hours of setup time, culminating in the most recent, a swing up threading tool holder that is an absolute joy to use, and brings external threading to the people who have been scared to death by the very thought of it.

 

I would have given you pictures and links, but because this website is so awkward to use when trying to insert things, I won’t bother.

 

Bogs

 

 

[modeng2000Participant @modeng2000]

Thanks bogs, I really value your oppinion.

 

John

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

I,v just come across part 1 of ‘A Bench Filing Machine’ by Tarentford in vol 114, no 2876 of ME 5th July 1956. No castings, its made up of heavy steel plate welded, and bolted, could be interesting, it seems quite simple. Ian S C
Seem to remember I thought of building this at one time.

[CirclipParticipant @circlip]

MEW Issue 4 , April/May 1991 “A lightweight filing machine” by Stan Bray, Pullout plan.

 

  Regards  Ian.

[modeng2000Participant @modeng2000]

Thanks fellas for the references, they are both a bit early for me and the ME/MEW archives don’t go back that far.

 

John

[David HanlonParticipant @davidhanlon38496]

Hi Folks,

 

Went to the MEW digital archive and there is MEW 4 – with the article – but NO plan … did I miss something or are the free plans not included in the digital archive?

 

Dave

[russellParticipant @russell]

 but NO plan … did I miss something or are the free plans not included in the digital archive?

 

Dave

 

 

I asked the same question a couple of months ago, with no response.  Of course, at the new improved resolution the plans probably couldn’t be read anyway…

 

russell

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

I find the old issues of ME at second hand Book Shops, I’m not a club member(too far away), but I know that the clubs I know of have copies that go back at least that far, I suppose the same happens in the UK. Ian S C

[Jeff DaymanParticipant @jeffdayman43397]

As mentioned above the oscillating assy is by no means clear, and I can see it being a real pain to maintain due to dirt entry.

 

A far simpler and more traditional filing machine design (with a scotch yoke drive fully enclosed) can be found at

 

http://www.sc-c.com/metallathe/index.html

 

Maybe a look at this unit wil give some ideas for a homebuilt fabricated version if somebody didn;t want to buy the casting kit. A lot simpler and more practical than the MEW version.

 

JD

Edited By Jeff Dayman on 02/06/2010 13:38:39

[DuncParticipant @dunc]

There are some simpler plans in old Popular Mechanics (PM) magazines. Visit

http://books.google.com/books?id=RdMDAAAAMBAJ

and navigate to the required issue.

 

1. Mechanics of Machine Filing, PM, July 1943 – information, not construction article

 

2. File It Faster, PM, Oct 1947 – construction article, uses motor

 

3. Filing Machine Fits Your Lathe, PM, March 1957 – construction article, uses lathe for power

 

4. Die Filing Machine, article in Useful Workshop Tools by Stan Bray, #31 in the Workshop Practice Series

 

 

 

 

 

[DuncParticipant @dunc]

There are some simpler plans in old Popular Mechanics (PM) magazines. Visit

http://books.google.com/books?id=RdMDAAAAMBAJ

and navigate to the required issue.

 

1. Mechanics of Machine Filing, PM, July 1943 – information, not construction article

 

2. File It Faster, PM, Oct 1947 – construction article, uses motor

 

3. Filing Machine Fits Your Lathe, PM, March 1957 – construction article, uses lathe for power

 

4. Die Filing Machine, article in Useful Workshop Tools by Stan Bray, #31 in the Workshop Practice Series

 

 

 

 

 

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

Instead of ranting on, would it not be a better idea to state which individual items you find are not dimensioned, that way there may well be a specific reply giving proper assistance. It all looks reasonably clear to me.

[modeng2000Participant @modeng2000]

Thank you Jeff and Dunc, I will look at these references.

John

 

[Harold Hall 1Participant @haroldhall1]

I have just by chance come across Fred
Townroe’s original comments regarding my article on the filing
machine. The situation is that all the drawings were provided and
have been left out in error by the publishers.

I to was also unhappy with the
publication of the series as I had asked for each sub assembly
drawing to be published in the issue that the assembly was described,
if this had been done it would have been more obvious that part
drawings were missing. Unfortunately, the sub assembly drawings were
published in the first issue separate from them being described.

It is a pity that Fred had not
contacted the editor at the time, rather than commented about it in
the forum, as the omission could have been corrected much earlier. I
will now contact the editor who will decide how the error is best
dealt with.

[Harold Hall 1Participant @haroldhall1]

I was not at all happy that at the beginning of this thread ( May 2010) that I was being accused of providing an article with much less information to make the item than was required as I spend a considerable amount of time attempting to dot all the I's and cross all the T's. As I explained it was not of my doing the magazine had not followed my requests as to how the the data should be presented. That's enough of my rantings.

However, Fred and Bogs, if you are still visiting this forum perhaps you would like to visit my website which now has the filing machine added. It does, as I originally requested, present each sub assembly separately, giving text, pictures and drawings for each one on the same page or group of pages.

I would appreciate your comments on the approach. It does though run to 26 web pages so just a quick flit through will give an idea. Incidentally, the website now runs to over 500 pages.

If you still wish to make a filing machine Fred then do study it in detail. However, I cannot guarantee there are no mistakes but as I draw designs first and them make the item to them they are thankfully fairly rare.

The pages can be found here

Since making it I have used it for a few minor tasks but recently on a major one of making a Skeleton Clock to John Parslow's design in the Model Engineer magazine. For this I found it worked very well and was almost indispensable for me. The thought of finishing the frames and crossing out all of the wheels without it a non starter, some obviously have much more patience than I have.

If you wish to have a look at it, it can be seen here

Harold

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

I have never built one of Harold's projects, but i have learnt truckloads from his articles.

I think the filer is the only example that 'loses' me and now I know that it was not presented as intended, I think it is fair to point out Harold is one of the best MEW authors at presenting projects for the beginner, and like Bogs, has probably enabled many new starters to take up the hobby.

As a much less experienced author who has tried to tackle the task of writing up such things, I appreciate it is not an easy task to explain something when you have no way of getting feedback until after it is published.

Some may find it painful, but constructive feedback given on this forum could help authors get better. It's good to that Harold does his best to offer 'customer support' here, as well as through hi own website.

Neil

[DMBParticipant @dmb]

I consider HH to be an excellent author – one of the best.

As regards a previous remark on "padding out an article, I fail to understand why some apparently cannot be bothered to explain things in detail since this would certainly pad out and earn them more for their efforts and at the same time, be very useful to some readers. Some articles just seem to be padded with waffle, intentional or otherwise.

John

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Jeff Dayman on 02/06/2010 13:37:47:

 

A far simpler and more traditional filing machine design (with a scotch yoke drive fully enclosed) can be found at

 

**LINK**

 

Maybe a look at this unit wil give some ideas for a homebuilt fabricated version if somebody didn;t want to buy the casting kit. A lot simpler and more practical than the MEW version.

 

JD

Edited By Jeff Dayman on 02/06/2010 13:38:39

 

Jeff,

Thanks for posting that link

The MLA-18 machine looks very tidy and, as you say, a fabricated version should be simple enough.

First thought [for a scaled-down version?], the body could be made from a standard Tee Coupling for scaffolding poles.

MichaelG.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 29/09/2012 00:03:17

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

 

There is some more MLA-18 detail here

… and here

MichaelG.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 29/09/2012 00:19:29

[Harold Hall 1Participant @haroldhall1]

I like you Jeff was very impressed with the MLA 18 filing machine when I researched the subject of filing machines, liking its enclosed construction and clean lines. However, from the data it would appear it only takes 1/4” files and looking at the photograph and comparing the file with the table this would seem to be the fact.

I wonder how you find filing long strait edges with such a narrow file. Similarly, long shallow curves with a half round. I assume the files are like needle files with a reverse cut.

Having used my machine extensively whilst making a Skeleton clock recently, as mentioned above, I found it very capable and with little need to clean the mechanism, but admit eventually that will be necessary.

The machine is in my estimation midway between your machine and that of an industrial die filer and really cannot be compared as it uses larger files and can be used for sawing as well as filing.

Another factor is that if the variable stroke mechanism is omitted (easy) the machine can be made without a milling machine being available.

Another very important factor is that with MEW being a world wide read magazine, very many readers find the cost of acquiring castings prohibitive, and tell us so. Because of this, they appreciated designs that are made from bar material.

I did have the impression at one stage that Metal Lathe's castings were available in the UK, can you confirm, but then, you may be in the US.

Anyone now reading this thread do look at the two links in my previous post above one showing the machine, the other, the clock. Making this would have been a much slower process without it.

I must also add. Thanks John (DMB).

Harold

[Author]

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