Elliot 10m

[Sean StimpsonParticipant @seanstimpson39664]

Hi all brought an elliot 10m has both pulleys and the belt but is missing the motor I have a spare inverter was looking for people's opinions on a 3/4hp 6pole or a 1hp 6 pole motor thanks

[Sean StimpsonParticipant @seanstimpson39664]

Shaper

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Why a 6 pole motor? Most motors are 4 pole.

[Sean StimpsonParticipant @seanstimpson39664]

The original motor was a 3/4 hp 6 pole I'm guessing slightly lower speed more torque just wondered if people use a 1 hp rather than 3/4

[david sanderson 3Participant @davidsanderson3]

Sean don't think it matters 3/4 or 1 hp its the rpm mine has a 930 rpm 3/4 hp motor and i think its the original motor

[Sean StimpsonParticipant @seanstimpson39664]

Never feel like a slight increase in power is needed

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

That's right mine has a 6 pole 950 rpm or so. You could use a 1425prm single phase if you could reduce the motor pulley size by about 30%. 3/4hp and may well be same frame size as 1hp.

2 pole 2800rpm, 4 pole 1425 rpm, 6 pole 930 rpm. Noel

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

Stick with a 6 pole to use the original pulleys.

Mine runs beautifully on a fairly old Mitsubishi inverter with the original motor. Although a VFD lets you compensate for the motor rpm difference between 6 and 4 pole its a proper PIA keeping whats going on should you vary rpm straight.

Its bad enough just getting your head round the change in cutting speed with stroke.

Usually leaving mine at 50 Hz for book speed is fine but sometimes you have to alter things for a good cut.

If buying new the cost difference between 3/4 hp 6 pole and 1 hp 4 pole motors isn't great. Motor & inverter package will be pretty much the same overall.

Clive

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Doesn't need more power

Shapers can smash themselves to bits with the standard issue kit and do amazing tough lobs

A VFD might be useful though

Edited By Ady1 on 08/02/2021 10:39:21

[Tony RayParticipant @tonyray65007]

Hi Sean,

Welcome to the 10M Club. I’m just a few weeks away from finishing my restoration. The 6 pole 3ph on mine was full of oil the and the star point was buried under layers of brittle insulation. As I much prefer 3ph I opted for a new 3/4 HP 6 pole motor and Schneider Altivar VFD. I will not entrust my safety to a Far Eastern VFD. I agree with everyone that you do not need more power, many shapers have bitten the dust with a smash up that breaks the yoke which seems to be the weakest point on the 10M and the Alba 1A that preceded it. Incidentally I have seen a write up where someone fabricated a new one from solid so it is a recoverable situation. Whatever route you go you will probably find the motor foot will be different, I had to fabricate an adaptor plate and even at 6mm thick (ally that’s what I had) there’s still enough adjustment for motor tension. The shaft dia may well also be different, I cut a new keyway with the lathe ( no shaper!) which you will need to do after boring and or sleeving. I got the motor on flea bay a very high quality European branded unit which with a little haggling I got for not much more than the usual stuff that’s available and it has a downloadable CAD model which helped immensely with working out the new mounting arrangements.

If you go down the VFD route and are wondering where to mount it I took inspiration from the write up on Lathes.co.uk where you can see an enclosure mounted at the the rear on the cabinet under the motor. I like this approach as it does not increase the footprint and access is far better that putting it in the base. Incidentally I can’t fathom what the space in the base cabinet is for, it doesn’t appear to have any supporting lugs for a base shelf.

Please do post some pic’s I collect any 10M ones I can find and if you need details about anything you are missing or unsure about please ask. I do intend to do a post on mine when she’s finished.

Tony

[Bob n AboutParticipant @bobnabout]

My Myford and 10M share an inverter. The Myford used to have a degree of braking applied when stopping. The 10M however didn't appreciate it, the mass of the shaper mechanics meant the braking quickly went over current and faulted the VFD. So watch if you try using brake, or share a VFD. Being able to control the 10M speed is very useful, I am not happy running mine at full speed, as has been said, don't underestimate their power for destruction. If the machine can walk into a wall, don't assume the wall will stop it.

[Dave WoottonParticipant @davewootton]

Bob

Interesting comment about a wall not stopping a shaper, some years ago a club member bought an Alba shaper. Transported it home with a couple of helpers, put it in his garage up against the wall on a couple of rollers. Without having a look to see how it worked, or ever using a shaper before, plugged it in and switched it on at the wall socket, there followed an almighty crash and the ram knocked three thermalite blocks out of the garage wall also propelling the machine across the workshop. As it was an integral garage it was now possible to see directly into the hall. Turns out the machine had been converted to single phase just by fitting a new motor wired directly to the plug, and the cutch was engaged…..!

Needless to say he took a while to live that one down. According to an eyewitness the accelleration of a shaping machine has to be seen to be believed.

Dave

Edited By Dave Wootton on 20/02/2021 10:49:06

[Rik ShawParticipant @rikshaw]

Hello Shaun – I restored my Alba 1A a few years ago but it had, and still has, a 4 pole domestic mains voltage motor giving approx 1425 rpm . Since the restore I realise that although it is just about usable for some jobs it is – for me – to fast for something like keyway slotting in a gear say.

I did make a lot of enquiries at the time re. a replacement 6 pole motor but was told that I would be wasting my time looking for something no longer made. I even tried for a U/S unit with the intention of getting it repaired/rewired but nothing was available.

These days the poor thing is boxed in with so much new kit that it is a PITA to clear enough space around it to do a job. Hope you get yours sorted OK soon.

Rik

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

Hi Rik, would it not have been possible to reduce the motor pulley size by 33% to drop the machine speed. Or have I missed something ? Noel.

[Tony RayParticipant @tonyray65007]

Noel, That would work however without checking I would say that a 33% increase in the larger pulley dia. might be too, large for the pulley cover. Of course if a VFD is used some speed reduction could be used to reduce the dia. required.

Tony

[Rik ShawParticipant @rikshaw]

Hello Noel. I did look at the possibility of replacing the present pulley with a smaller one five or six years ago. I did not take any notes so memory will have to serve. Apart from that a bench loaded with approx 1/4 ton of kit is hard up against the belt side of the shaper at the mo preventing me from getting another look inside and providing you with pulley/belt/shaft dimensions

The existing pulley is just about as small as it could be while still working properly. Reducing the pulley diameter by 30% would mean that the bottom of the V belt would be uncomfortably close to the motor shaft OD. Not a good thing with such a chunky drive belt and the increased risk of belt slip. So I am quite sure that I would have looked at this possible solution years ago and dismissed it.

Rik

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

I'm inclined to agree with Tony that changing pulleys isn't really practical.

These days 6 pole motors seem to be much more readily available and much cheaper than they used to be. Possibly due to the increase in VFD use. Using a 6 pole motor instead of a 4 pole one when changing to VFD drive significantly lowers the minimum speed before you start running into torque drop off issues.

I'd guess that with a modern VFD something in the region of 450 to 2000 rpm can be got from a 6 pole 950 rpm motor without undue worry about low speed torque loss or over speeding. In many cases far more useful than the 700 to 3000 ish range from a 4 pole 1440 rpm motor without compensating alterations to the drive train.

If lower speed torque loss with 1440 rpm motor is an issue you'd need to go up to a bigger motor, which may not fit, and a bigger VFD. When I've done the sums for decent but affordable brands of motor and VFD a 6 pole motor and smaller VFD seems to come out a little cheaper than the larger 4 pole motor with matching, larger VFD. objectively pretty much a wash really though.

Clive

[Tony RayParticipant @tonyray65007]

Thanks for this kind words Clive and for not pointing out I went the wrong way on the pulley sizing! Of course I see now making the drive pulleys 33% bigger would make the speed issue worse! My drive pulley had to be quite large so my thoughts were in that direction. I can certainly say having been there that having to mount a modern motor, fabricate a new pulley to fit its 25mm shaft and calculate the optimum dia to get as close to the original stokes per min was enough without the added complication of using a 4 pole motor. One thing I will mention that might be of use to others is that when faced with pulley diameter restrictions going to poly vee belting does allow a wider range of solutions but I’ll save that story for my Elliot write up.

[George JervisParticipant @georgejervis86082]

Hi,

I have the Alba a1 shaper, I found the motor that came with it was a single shape 3/4hp 1425 rpm with what looked like the original pulley, the shaper was running way to fast so I got around the problem by putting a 2 1/4" pulley on, now may shaper runs almost to the rpm stated on the plaque

George

[Sean StimpsonParticipant @seanstimpson39664]

I went with 6 pole 1hp as the vfd when lowering the frequency the power is still there I bored the orginal pulley and cut the keyway to make the motor up and running seems to work beautifully thanks for all the help

[Chris CrewParticipant @chriscrew66644]

I must fully agree with those people commenting on the awesome power of the 10M. I have no idea what motor or speed is on mine, simply because I have never bothered to look, except that it is single-phase and looks as if it is the original supplied with the machine although I have no way of knowing. I use it mainly for flatting castings as a single point tool is no issue to sharpen and if it's round-nosed you can use the traverse in both directions. Even though there is a plate giving ram speeds I find it is really just a matter of judgement and guestimation as to ram travel and speed. The only real inconvenience I find is the awkward aligning of the ram crank to alter the distance of travel. I have been meaning to make a handle for the clutch pulley to alleviate having to pull it round by hand to facilitate ram adjustment but I just haven't got round to it yet. Perhaps I might now check out exactly what motor is fitted to it.

[MARK RIGGParticipant @markrigg57943]

Hello all .

I have recently acquired a very nice Elliot M10 Shaper . I have not yet installed it in my workshop as I had to largely dismantle it to bring it home ( in an Audi estate ! ) .

Also as I have no 3 phase power and the Elliot has a 1000 rpm 3 phase motor, I need to address this issue . I had sourced a 6 pole 240 volt motor at about £120 . My alternative is to stick with the original 3 phase motor and buy a VFD off e -bay . The package would be cheaper than changing the motor and would have the advantage of further lowering the machine speed at will .

This project is on hold at the moment as I have two other machines in bits that I must get re-assembled and useable now its not so cold !

MARK

BRIDGNORTH

[George JervisParticipant @georgejervis86082]

Hi mark,

I've pm you

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

Mark

No brainer. Get a VFD and keep the standard motor. Had mine about 15 years and always run it on a VFD. Its as happy as Larry.

Hafta say I rarely use the speed variation capability. Standard 50 hz works well enough on almost everything I do.

Mine is set to take about 3 or 4 seconds to run up which is great for a nice smooth start. I usually hit the VFD start button and immediately drop the clutch so it accelerates smoothly and without drama. If you do things the standard way with the motor running at its rated speed then feed in the clutch it goes off with something of a jerk. Clutch engagement, on mine at least, isn't controllable enough for a nice smooth take off.

Clive

[MARK RIGGParticipant @markrigg57943]

Hello again .

I was wondering about the lubrication of the ram slides – the oiling points look very small . The bearing surfaces on my machine look in very good condition , but if the oiling got missed and the slides ran dry, serious galling could occur and would be a long job to rectify . Has anyone else had a problem here ? I was thinking of installing a pair of sight feed / drip lubricators .

MARK

BRIDGNORTH

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