Electric vehicles

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

ChrisH

Gov stats show the average age of cars on UK roads is 8.4years. There is no suggestion that ICE vehicles will be instantly removed just that new cars will be EV (or hydrogen etc). The transition to all EV will therefore take in excess of 10 years after new ICE are banned. That allows a transition to all electric to be some 20years from now.

Electricity use UK has been in decline in the last 20years so there is spare capacity at the moment although some generating capacity is coming to the end of it;s useful life hence the planning for new nuclear.

EV's brake with regenerative aid so actually less brake dust but possible more tyre wear from their extra weight.

There is plenty fo time for the inrastructure transition. As has been said – wherever people live they have to park their cars somewhere and logically charge points get fitted in a proportion of those 'somewheres'.

Steviegtr

Charge ports at the moment are a mix of types but a standard is slowly emerging throughout europe. I think all new cars now have type2 connectors as standard from 240v single phase inputs and CCS is the new standard for DC input. My own car uses type2 for it's DC input as Tesla specific type2 but all new euro Teslas come with ability to use both type2 A/C and CCS. The chademo adapter I bought for use from non-Tesla chargers is redundant since I can have my charge port upgraded to take the CCS input. I donlt think anyone is making new 43KW A/C input cars. Such (fast) charging points are kept as legacy for older cars.

The US uses different standards as do other continents but a global standard will finally emerge.

Derek hall 1

Speculating about drunk yobs unplugging cars is amusing but I recall such yobs going down the road and nailing all the tyres on every car. They did all 4 on mine. No, it wasn't funny but at least if they did it to my Tesla I'd have them on it's security camera footage (all four sides).

Battery packs vary in tech. Yes they lose storage efficiency over time. In the case of my Tesla (I choose that 'cos I know how it's arranged) it's packed with many thousand 2170 lithium cells – each one is quite small and arranged in sub-bricks surrounded with coolant and computer monitored. the packs can be rebuilt, dud bricks replaced and the battery components can be recycled and reused. Rebuilds will become uneconomic as tech changes happen.

MichaelG

When it comes to heavy stuff and very long range stuff then battery weight needing to be carted around has it's own significant impacts. As you know hydrogen at the mo' is generally from fossil gas and energy losses in making it from more environmentall friendly hydrolysis seems illogical. The UK already is trialling a hydrogen train. If we ever get to significant spare leccy generation from wind/wave then H2 production and storage losses become less important since at least the 'free' energy is being stored. I like the idea of H2 avoiding battery weight and gov would find it easier to tax.

ChrisH (again)

Road haulage – again Tesla in the forefront with their Semi (or artic tractor unit) already trialling on roads. they are working towards the million-mile battery (as in being able to do that many journey miles before replacement) and being charged from more than one charge port at the same time Tesal Semi

I'm sure other haulage manufacturers are looking at similar including smaller battery reserves and overhead power on motorways.

As others above have rightly said – things have no choice but to change and any change will be a slow conversion.

Farm tractors electric? Yes – Link

Personal view

Some of the bigger issues are ignored. – self indulgence and greed. I consider it a nonsense that we airlift blueberries from Chile and sell them cheaply out of season. Even more ridiculous that we buy in apples that have been stored (as opposed to fresh) when we are perfectly capable of growing them here or that the US buys it's applejuice from China. Bizzare trade deals that include wasteful transport because we have become too grand to pick our own fruit.

pgk

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi Michael, reminds one of the war over AC or DC fought between Thomas Edison and Nikola Tesla, maybe he doesn't want to let the Tesla name down. War over Currents

Regards Nick.

Edited By Nicholas Farr on 20/11/2020 12:23:45

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Nicholas Farr on 20/11/2020 12:20:37:

Hi Michael, reminds one of the war over AC or DC fought between Thomas Edison and Nikola Tesla, maybe he doesn't want the Tesla name down. War over Currents

Regards Nick.

.

Indeed it does, Nick … but what really boggled my mind was that Elon Musk, and China are portrayed as credible contenders in the debate.

MichaelG.

[derek hall 1Participant @derekhall1]

Almost still on topic…

I thought I read somewhere that Australia imports as much bottled drinking water as it exports bottled drinking water…so it appears that there are ships sailing around the world full of drinking water…

Madness

Regards

Derek

[Ex contributorParticipant @mgnbuk]

so a decent solar array could be useful especially in the summer with strong sun and long daylight hours.

Great if you have a sizeable, South facing, unobstructed roof to mount them on.

My set is, in theory, capable of producing 3.5Kw. In practice, I have not seen more than 2.5Kw being produced – Summer can work against you, as hot panels are less effiicient. IIRC a 3.5Kw installation is the largest allowed for domestic solar installations connected to the grid. Maybe they might be helpful to top up an electric car if you don't expect to use it much – I wouldn't want to rely upon the sun shining enough to get to work daily.

Going electric for vehicles probably won't have much of an effect on oil production – all the petrochemicals required to produce the raw materials for plastics, paint, lubricants, graphite, (used for steel & aluminium production as well as in lithium batteries) etc. will still be required, possibly in increased amounts. Just as well BP reckon that known, proven oil reserves were nearly 50% higher in 2019 than in 1999, despite having had 20 years production.

Electric vehicles won't stop pollution – they will just change the type of pollution & move it around.

Nigel B.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Robert Atkinson 2 on 19/11/2020 17:21:23:

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 19/11/2020 16:48:02:

Funnily enough, on another site today someone pointed out that when you lock the car the charge leads also lock (at both ends) to prevent theft.

N.

Not universally true. While some cars may have this feature, not all do. Mine does not. Thete is space for a small padlock on the latch release but the latch is plastic and would not resist a determined attempt to remove the plug.

Robert G8RPI.

I think it's a new feature that's becoming more common.

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

I worked at ICI Wilton in the 80's petrol was burned away as it was a side product from the oil. They had very few petrol stations at that time. Probably none now.

Steve.

[Kiwi BlokeParticipant @kiwibloke62605]

Posted by Andy Gray 3 on 19/11/2020 12:49:50:

Re questions about emergency response:

**LINK**

Big thanks to Andy Gray 3 for this link. It's frightening reading. >400V battery voltage. Highly inflammable electrolyte. 10 minutes for capacitors to discharge. 300kg of battery, occupying most of the area between the car's wheels. PPE required for first responders. Need to check status of electrical power and take complex – and presumably model-specific – actions to make vehicle 'safe'.

Woe betide anyone trapped or incapacitated in a crashed EV and also any good Samaritan tempted to interfere.

No-one has responded to my worry that an EV battery dumping all its stored energy in millisecons, if shorted by tangled smashed bodywork, etc. It would be quite spectacular, I think, judging by my childhood 'experiments' putting wire wool, alloy foil, etc. across charged capacitors and the mains and accidental shorts when working on cars., etc.: just magnify by rather a lot…

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

I hope this does not happen often.

Steve.

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

I have just done a calculation on the street i live in. I allowed 1.5 cars per household which is probably about right. We have 3.

There are 137 houses in the street , so at 7kw when plugged in charger. We need 1.4 megawatts . I see a mushroom cloud appearing.

An aside to all this. My old pal was a jeweller. They bought a few little boxes & he kept raving about them. He said this guy had invented them. He had these small devices that each morning you filled with a cup of water. Plugged in to a skt & within a short time he lit the flame on the jewellers torch. This torch ran all day on a cup of water.

He said the guy who invented them had invented a car that ran on water, BP energy bought his patent for a lot of spondula's & he could have retired .

He moved his business over to making these little blowtorches.

I would have bought a small island & lived in luxury, but some folk just need to work.

B.P & the rest will not release this tech until the time i right.

Anyone believe this or heard that this tech actually works. There was also talk of an Indian guy who invented the same but strangely disappeared. It does sound logical that water is 2 parts Hydrogen & 1 part Oxygen. No wonder i Fart so much.

Steve.

Food for thought.

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

Kiwi Bloke

I have crashed, shorted and seen thermal runaway with r/c Lipoly batteries (not quite the same as lithium Ion) so i do appreciate the potential for catastrophic failure and the fumes & energy released.

However to put it in perspective one has to compare damages and disasters from petrol vehicle accidents and precautuons taken. Petrol catastrophes are not benign either.

One of the safety features of the Tesla pack is that the individual cells are wired such that a dramatic discharge destroys the wired connection of individual cells and interfers with the drama of an 'instant' cascade. That is not to take away from the potential for thermal runaway. if enough cells are compromised then local heat alone will proliferate the cascade whereas shorting out the pack should lead to those cell connections acting as fuses and isolating the cells.

Effectively that means that in a severe compromise to the full battery it's less likely to be an instant effect and more likely to be a slow brew to later rapid conflagration.

Equally that means that vehicles with damage to their battery areas need to be isolated for week or two before the state can be trusted.

pgk

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Stevie, your mates magic boxes start at just over £100 on e-bay. Look for "oxygen hydrogen flame genorator"

Is your street devoid of cars during the day so they all come back with empty batteries at night? If they are all out during the day are they driving about all the time and not able to be parked at a place of work, carpark, etc?

Would any other car that has ruptured it's fuel tank and burnt out not look much the same, I'm assuming one with lightweight aluminium and composite construction ( to counter the battery weight) so there is no steel shell to survive the fire?

Edited By JasonB on 21/11/2020 07:48:57

[Anthony KnightsParticipant @anthonyknights16741]

Using the figures mentioned in previous posts, I make an over night charge to be about 50Kwh. As a matter of interest, can anyone tell me how far you could travel on that (approximately).

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by JasonB on 21/11/2020 07:46:21:

Stevie, your mates magic boxes start at just over £100 on e-bay. Look for "oxygen hydrogen flame genorator"

[…]

.

I sent Steve a P.M. last night, so as to avoid publicly tempting him to look at cheap uncertified products from distant sources.

In retrospect, I think this link does more good than harm … but I will understand if it is removed.

**LINK** : http://mynewworkshop.co.uk/hho.html

MichaelG.

[Clive Brown 1Participant @clivebrown1]

Posted by Anthony Knights on 21/11/2020 07:59:52:

Using the figures mentioned in previous posts, I make an over night charge to be about 50Kwh. As a matter of interest, can anyone tell me how far you could travel on that (approximately).

The current on-line DailyTelegraph has "The best 10 electric cars" listing miles/kwHr. Figure varies from 2,8 for a Jag. to 4.4 for a VW. Typically 3.5 to 4. I expect that these are the best that the particular car can achieve.

[J HancockParticipant @jhancock95746]

To keep the 'maths' easy , about 4 miles for 1kwh, or at 20p /kwh, 5p/mile.

Even a modest diesel/petrol car will be 10p/mile .

The 'difference' is the tax loss to the exchequer.

This will not be allowed to continue.

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

Overnight recharge depends on your definition of overnight. If it's 7pm to 7am @7KW then that can easly totally refuel a 75KWh Model3 with a best range of 350miles stated (real world 300miles summer and 250miles winter) BUT no-one aims to get home on an empty tank and generally one avoids leaving a BEV charged above 90% unless about to use it immediately – not good for the pack to sit at full.

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Posted by Steviegtr on 20/11/2020 16:21:10:

I worked at ICI Wilton in the 80's petrol was burned away as it was a side product from the oil. They had very few petrol stations at that time. Probably none now.

Steve.

Any evidence?
While any refinery will have a flar stack for safety I can't see any company "burning away" significant amounts of any hydrocarbon never mind "petrol". Mose plants will use excess or low value hydrocarbons to produce heat and or power for process use.

On hydrogen generators the missing link is the "plugged nto a socket…" The energy used to produce hydrogen by electrolysis is more tha you can get from the hydrogen. Large commercal plants manage about 70%. The other big problem with hydrogn is storage.

Robert G8RPI.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

J Hancock wrote:

This will not be allowed to continue.

Of course not. The government tries hard to stop thieving – because they don’t like the competition!

That is why eventually all new vehicles will be fitted with ‘Big Brother” recording packages – so not only will they be able to charge on mileage travelled, but also know where you have been.🙂 Tesla do this already, btw.

Likely initially only charged on main roads, to help out those poor souls who live out in the sticks.🙂

I expect you are likely one of those that already consider motorists are unfairly targeted, by the Chancellor, for easy tax revenue?

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Posted by Steviegtr on 20/11/2020 23:34:24:

I have just done a calculation on the street i live in. I allowed 1.5 cars per household which is probably about right. We have 3.

This is going to have to change. People living in town will have to be restricted to one small car, like a geewiz size, per two or three houses, range only 10 miles to get to shops that are outside cyclig range. Each comunity will have access to a few rental long range cars which sensibly should be hybrid electric/hydrogen powered.

Also all this talk of daily needing 50kwh etc is going to have to be rationalised. Stop all this non essential commuting, travelling salesmen, FtoF meetings, site working tradesmen travelling every day. Everyone live within cycling, or bus range of work if it needs physical presence, schools all in walking range etc. Introduce time of year/weather restrictions on travel to when power is available.

Another big change we need is to remove the moneygrubbing planning constraints on installing domestic solar installations up to about 15KW so more energy can be generated locally. The excess daytime energy (above the 3kw feed in allowed) going into the car but potentially availabe at night back into the house/grid.
Excluding heating I use 8KWh per day but the DHW could be solar too still leaving about 5KWh for computer, modem, lights, radio, fridge, kettle, microwave.

[will hawkesParticipant @willhawkes78155]

i have solved the problem ,do not have a car or van and now use a 1937 panther motorcycle for all my transport needs including trips to the shops ,no road tax no mot needed and classic insurance at £68 ,fully comp ,,couple this with 100 mpg and you get a happy pensioner

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Steviegtr on 20/11/2020 23:34:24:… My old pal was a jeweller. They bought a few little boxes & he kept raving about them. He said this guy had invented them. He had these small devices that each morning you filled with a cup of water. Plugged in to a skt & within a short time he lit the flame on the jewellers torch. This torch ran all day on a cup of water.

He said the guy who invented them had invented a car that ran on water, BP energy bought his patent for a lot of spondula's & he could have retired .

He moved his business over to making these little blowtorches.

I would have bought a small island & lived in luxury, but some folk just need to work.

B.P & the rest will not release this tech until the time i right.

Anyone believe this or heard that this tech actually works. There was also talk of an Indian guy who invented the same but strangely disappeared. …

Mostly Urban Myth, with a dash of truth. I first heard it at school, when the technology was allegedly perfected by the RAF during WW2 and suppressed as a military secret because it would have saved the Nazis. The secret has since been hidden along with the Ark of the Covenant, flying saucers and death rays.

Dimly remembering Heavy Water is something to do with E=mc² gives the idea a certain credibility, provided you didn't major on science at school. In the real world, no need for sinister disappearances because the nature of the chemical bond is well understood. The amount of energy released by burning Hydrogen and Oxygen is known, and so is the amount of energy needed to break water back into Hydrogen and Oxygen. Reversing can be done chemically, but electrolysis is cleaner.

Burning fossil fuels to make the electricity needed to turn water into Hydrogen and Oxygen isn't cheap, though the method is economic at remote locations (like a rural hospital needing Oxygen in New Guinea), and for the small workshop burners used by Jewellers.

So the technology exists, but it's cheaper at the moment to make bulk Hydrogen from Methane and bulk Oxygen from Air. However in future, electrolysis has a rosy future because it's a way of storing Green Energy. Perhapst the biggest problem with Green Energy is it can't be turned on an off like a tap. Mother nature doesn't deliver solar power at night, and is otherwise uncooperative. She belts out free energy in massive quantities when no-one wants it, and then cuts out at inconvenient moments. Storage is essential, and electrolysis can do that.

Electric car batteries are another way of storing green energy. It makes sense to recharge cars while their owners are asleep because wind power usually provides excess capacity at night. And electricity isn't like petrol in that energy can be taken back by the grid. Millions of electric cars could be used to balance the network.

The idea obviously doesn't make sense when cars are used for long journeys, or have to be ready to go at short notice, but most cars aren't like that: I used to drive 30 miles a day to work, and my maximum weekend journey would be about 100 miles. Longer distances involved hire cars, trains and planes. My car spent about 22 hours a day parked up, more now I'm retired, and it wouldn't matter if the grid used it to balance the load. Otherwise 15000 miles a year is an average 41 miles per day, which is well within electric range. It means most people, most of the time, could go electric without bother. There are many exceptions. Long journeys towing caravans over mountains is one, as is living in Montana. I guess those people won't use the same technology as urban dwellers.

Electric cars aren't direct substitutes for internal combustion. They have new shortcomings and new advantages, For example, if you enjoy acceleration, quite ordinary electric cars will burn off a petrol muscle car. It's because a battery can deliver power direct to a motor on all four wheels faster than a reciprocating engine can clank through the suck, squeeze, bang, blow cycle. Nor does the electric car waste energy in the transmission, cooling and lubrication systems : what's available goes straight to the road. On top of that electric cars are lighter. Seats and bodywork sit on a light flat plate and there's no heavy cylinder block, clutch, gearbox, drive shaft or differential to haul around.

Electric cars are superior to petrol in every way apart from one – the battery.

Interesting times ahead.

Dave

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 21/11/2020 12:00:28:

Electric cars are superior to petrol in every way apart from one – the battery.

.

.

Scalextric sorted that one out

MichaelG.

[Paul KempParticipant @paulkemp46892]

S.O.D,

Are you sure electric cars are lighter? Do you have figures to back that up? Certainly the marine projects I have been working on do not show that, yes we can remove 2 high power engines and two generator engines but even ignoring the weight of the batteries the equipment weights are comparable. Motors of the requisite power definitely are not light. We cannot find a motor that is efficient across the RPM range required for either props or water jets so reduction gearboxes are still required. Motors still need complicated cooling arrangements involving glycol cooling circuits and complicated thermostatic valves as do the inverters and transformers. The batteries also require cooling either by water or air, in fact lithium based batteries present a significant hazard in the quantity required and need very careful and precise temperature control and the cooling arrangements present a very significant weight.

There are at least two hybrid vessels to my knowledge that due to the over optomistic claims of equipment suppliers have left the designers with very red faces and resulted in two very expensive white elephants. While there is strong drive from government to push things in this direction this is not backed up with funding to support the disproportionate capital costs. Much of the analysis presented as an argument to suggest through life costs are vastly reduced to off set the high initial capital costs are cleverly and deliberately flawed by ignoring through life battery or fuel cell replacements or other renewal costs.

On the point of potentially supporting the grid by back feeding from my batteries at peak times who pays for the reduction in battery life available to me through the increased cycles?

Paul.

[Harry WilkesParticipant @harrywilkes58467]

Out of the fat into the fire I watch a youtube clip link

in which Ian Ducan Smith in a LBC interview said the biggest problem with electric car are the batteries as they cannot be fully recycled and a large part of it would have to go to landfill

[Author]

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