Dore Westbury 5″ machine vice?

[Andrew TinsleyParticipant @andrewtinsley63637]

Hello,

Does anyone know if the kits for the above are still available? I did a Google search and turned up nothing on suppliers. Maybe there is a machine drawing for them?

I once had the use of one of these vices and found it to be remarkably good.

Regards,

Andrew.

[Andrew TinsleyParticipant @andrewtinsley63637]

[derek hall 1Participant @derekhall1]

Hi, Model Engineering Supplies also supplied castings for the Quorn and other workshop equipment. A thread some time ago seemed to suggest MES were back up and trading again (was it something to do with Ivan Law's son who now was in charge?)

However they were trading a few years ago but seems only for a short time. The website is defunct and an email address for MES that worked also is defunct.

So it seems that MES has stopped trading, which is a shame as there is still a demand for the Quorn and other very useful workshop equipment.

Maybe someone else know more?

Regards

Derek

[Andrew TinsleyParticipant @andrewtinsley63637]

Hello Derek,

Thanks for the information. It seems that I am doomed in the search for a kit. Maybe someone has the drawings?

A great pity that both the Quorn and the Dore Westbury vice are no longer kitted, both are well worth making. I was eyeing up the Quorn as a long term project and the Dore vice as a do it now job. Looks like I am out of luck.

Thanks,

Andrew.

[RobboParticipant @robbo]

Andrew

I think I have one of these kits, which someone else started, in the attic. As far as I remember, only some initial smoothing of flat castings had been done.

I have found the instructions and drawing in the more comfortable environment of the bookshelves!

Viz:

I had to put it in the attic when I saw how they had spelled "vice"

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Both spellings are correct in the UK

Get over it

[Alan Johnson 7Participant @alanjohnson7]

Please sir, why were these so good? And, if I may have another two questions: was the kit of cast iron; and was the design ever published in ME? A quick search seems to tell me no.

Alan

[Andrew TinsleyParticipant @andrewtinsley63637]

Hello Alan,

It was lowish profile, had a very wide opening and didn't suffer from the usual jaw riding up on tightening. I may have rosy specs, but I was impressed at the time.

Regards,

Andrew.

[egaParticipant @ega]

Posted by John Stevenson on 11/04/2017 15:14:45:
Both spellings are correct in the UK

Get over it

Not according to the 2005 New Oxford Spelling Dictionary which gives "vise" as US usage.

Arnold Throp recommended getting two of these however spelled (or spelt).

[Paul Jarvis 2Participant @pauljarvis2]

Andrew

There is one on Ebay right now ends in about 3 hours **LINK**

Paul

[Tony Pratt 1Participant @tonypratt1]

Posted by Paul Jarvis 2 on 11/04/2017 18:40:44:

Andrew

There is one on Ebay right now ends in about 3 hours **LINK**

Paul

There are two.

Tony

[Bill Davies 2Participant @billdavies2]

I was recently looking up details of my Record no. 3 and 4 vices, and noticed that earlier in the century, British manufacturers used vice, but Parkinson, Shipley, Yorkshire consistently used vise (1940 catalogue, also elsewhere). I would say previous to that, I have only seen 'vice' spelling in British documents, but going back further (farther) who knows? Woodworker/metalworker differences, like G-cramp/clamp (and trying not to mention C-clamp).

Bill

[RobboParticipant @robbo]

Posted by John Stevenson on 11/04/2017 15:14:45:
Both spellings are correct in the UK

Get over it

I was never under it. Try a sense of humour.

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

Practice and practise are both permissible.

Mike

[egaParticipant @ega]

Bill Davies 2:

My 1939 Tom Senior catalogue has Parkinson's "Vises" whilst Brown Brothers 1933 has illustrations of these so marked, but under the heading "Vice"! Was either word cast in to the tool concerned and, if so, were the patterns ever changed to reflect what seems to have been a change in usage?

The authoritative Salaman's Dictionary of Tools (1975) has vice throughout and for clamp "see cramp" (this book is mainly concerned with woodworking tools).

In school woodwork class we used G cramps and a clamp was length of grooved timber applied to the end of a board to help keep it flat.

[julian atkinsParticipant @julianatkins58923]

To get back to Derek's original request my Dore Westbury vice is as per Robbo's drawing.

In retrospect a proper machine vice would be of far more benefit. As Robbo comments the original design has very low jaws and profile.

Cheers,

Julian

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Posted by julian atkins on 11/04/2017 23:18:18:

To get back to Derek's original request my Dore Westbury vice is as per Robbo's drawing.

In retrospect a proper machine vice would be of far more benefit. As Robbo comments the original design has very low jaws and profile.

Cheers,

Julian

These were done as a kit of parts in an era before we had cheap imports and MES were one of the first to cater to the hobby.

A fair bit of thought was put into these vices by Ivan Law given they were made for the Dore Westbury which other than the Tom Senior and the first influx of the very badly made Rong Fu's were the only machines a Model Engineer had access to other than the vertical slide on a lathe. Even the Amolco add ones were very expensive for the day.

They were made low profile to fit the DW mill as most model engineers are only working with small lumps but the nice design was the tongue on the moveable jaw that slid under the fixed jaw to stop lifting.

Even today, size for size not many small vices can match the MES vice for capacity given it's size.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Until I saw John's post i was going to add that the long guide plate is what makes it so good as it combats jaw lift.

It is likely that the MES Quorn castings will be available from another source soon. My guess is that, if there is demand, other MES castings may follow from the same source.

OED says its from the French 'vis'. I guess the USA probably use the original spelling and the 'vice' spelling probably merged with the 'failing' meaning in the UK.

[egaParticipant @ega]

"vis" meaning screw, of course, making the distinction from earlier wedge-based holding devices.

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

If castings can't be found a version glued'n screwed together from stock sections looks pretty easy to sort out if chomping the base from solid is a bit too much for your mill. Obviously you still need to machine all mating surfaces for accuracy and good fit but it doesn't seem a major chore.

Do it the neat freak way with countersunk socket heads from underneath into blind holes doing the screw bit and who is gonna know without a close look. I'd not be doing with short blind holes. Just run right through and knock the protruding threaded ends off during clean up machining. Probably need to be a bit thicker than the original, maybe 1/4" to 3/8" to get decent thread lengths and screw seats. Which hardly seems a major issue.

Screw in tension of course, pulling from the back, with decent cleanly surfaced and well lubricated thrust washers. Not jut run on the body. Needle roller thrust washers without the needles work well being noticeably smoother than a simple machined step running on the body.

If you do make one from scratch seriously consider making it replaceable jaw style with a stash of soft ones and a couple with Vees in horizontal or vertical planes. But do them when you make it! Soft jaws for my machine vices would be easy to do but I never get round to making a stash and no time mid job so always work-around and second best solution time.

The major issue with the Dore Westbury design compared to many conventional vice designs is that there is no central aperture so drilling through holes is pretty much out. But it's lower profile, very resistant to jaw lift and much wider opening. Yer pays yer money and makes yer choice.

Clive.

[derek hall 1Participant @derekhall1]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 12/04/2017 07:44:45:

Hi all

I saw this quote on this thread…

"It is likely that the MES Quorn castings will be available from another source soon. My guess is that, if there is demand, other MES castings may follow from the same source."

I am intrigued by this!

I would love to have a go at making the Quorn I will put my name down for a set!. Currently I think that they can only be obtained from a supplier in the USA or rarely come up on the well known auction site. It will be fantastic if MES in some form was restarted. I am sure there is a demand for the tooling/casting sets that they used to offer.

All the best

Derek

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

Machine it from the solid, nice piece of Mehanite and you will be away.

[julian atkinsParticipant @julianatkins58923]

John Stevenson advocated the benefits of the original vice, but I think John might also accept it's limitations. The very shallow depth of engagement on the shallow jaws is useful for small jobs. But for bigger jobs a bigger proper machine vice is needed.

The Dore Westbury has a long X axis, but this is negated by the original vice for lots of common operations.

So you want to do forked ends on an eccentric rod (sorry John for mentioning miniature steam locos). You clamp the rod in the original vice, and there is then insufficient Z movement to do the milling.

Most cylinder blocks for miniature locos require great ingenuity to mill the port faces and ports using the original vice.

In most cases a proper machine vice would resolve all these problems.

I havent found the moving jaw to be particularly 'precision' in operation – but perhaps mine is worn after 35 plus years. I have to add a bit of shim under the moving tongue underneath the static jaw.

On the bed is a nice slot, and it would have been a nice feature of the vice to have a tongue to engage in same for parallel work without having to DTI up the vice if removed for using angle plates etc.

My old late friend Albert North had a Dore Westbury which he used extensively for milling on miniature loco parts including 2 5"g Brits, a 5"g 9F, a 5"g Pansy, and a 5"g Firefly, and much else besides. He had a proper machine vice on his. The raised height required on the column caused no problems.

Cheers,

Julian

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Julian,

I was putting it into the context of the time which would be about 1970 working out from when I bought one and the fact my two children were born around this time.

 

In 1970 all that was available were worn out 5" and 6" vices from industry. You had to kill or wait for someone to die to get a decent 4" vise.

 

Same applied for rotary tables, MES did 3 kits for these and I also bought one as I had no success in getting a small table from anywhere and I did have lots of contacts.

 

Would I buy a Dore machine vice or rotary table today ? No it's far cheaper to buy an import. There was a recent thread on here about a RT not being central and the owner was crying in his porridge and saying why for his measly £70 didn't they make them better before they shipped them halfway round the world.

 

However anyone care to work out what a modern equivalent of the MES RT kit would cost today ? Far , far more than the complete one shipped from China so treat it as a kit and you have saved a hat full of money

Edited By John Stevenson on 12/04/2017 23:40:30

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