Digital calipers made in same factory?

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember32069]

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[Ian Johnson 1Participant @ianjohnson1]

British Standards (BS kitemark) are a good replacement. They cover most products an industries. Respected all over the world and used by many countries. If a CE standard is not covered by BS then it can be easily transposed into British law or vice versa. European standards also include the technical EN range and most CE and EN standards are already incorporated into British law.

A good early example is BSEN3 for fire extinguishers, the BS was very good but didn't use the common red colour scheme like most of Europe. So the BS and EN were combined into a British and European standard. Now all European fire extinguishers are colour coded in red only, but the British extinguishers are allowed to colour code 5% of the extinguisher body in the old BS colour scheme: Blue (powder), Black (Co2). Cream (foam) and water is totally Red as per the old BS colour.

A lot of international standards are identical so it would be easy and cost effective to incorporate them into an individual country's needs.

Ian

[Ian Johnson 1Participant @ianjohnson1]

Posted by Barrie Lever on 15/08/2019 15:21:20:

Ian

I like the thread locker image.

Regards

Barrie

Glad you like the 'threadlocker' image Barrie I am going to unleash it when things get out of hand!

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Ian Johnson 1 on 15/08/2019 16:02:08:

Glad you like the 'threadlocker' image Barrie I am going to unleash it when things get out of hand!

.

Says a man with 97 posts to his name

… is this to be a coup d'état ?

[Ian Johnson 1Participant @ianjohnson1]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 15/08/2019 16:19:03:

Posted by Ian Johnson 1 on 15/08/2019 16:02:08:

Glad you like the 'threadlocker' image Barrie I am going to unleash it when things get out of hand!

.

Says a man with 97 posts to his name

… is this to be a coup d'état ?

Soon to be a man with 100 posts to his name! And is that French for a 'Cup of tea'? Milk and two sugars please!

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Barrie Lever on 15/08/2019 15:21:20:

Dave

My comments about faked CE markings are true and I would be prepared to discuss and share with you via PM if you desire.

As for a marking system that has more chance of working, how about the UL enhanced system? where each item has a unique identifier, this ID could then be checked back to a UL database to stop some dishonest person or company copying an identifier in addition to copying the product.

For whatever reason, there is no will to sort out the CE marking system, my hunch is that whilst the bureaucrat's know the system does not work but they don't want to admit defeat.

Where there is a will there is a way.

Ian

I like the thread locker image.

Regards

Barrie

Of course CE marks are forged but so are UL marks! And UL marks won't allow British goods to be sold into the European Market, or anywhere else that recognises the CE system. Replacing a shaky European system with an equally shaky USA system isn't the solution.

British Standards aren't a substitute for CE either. CE means the European manufacturer or European importer asserts all relevant standards are met for this class of product. That's all; it's not a guarantee or a quality system. Not comparing like-with-like. BS are actual specifications, also not guarantees, and it would be impractical to list all of them that apply to a complex product. BSG has no enforcement mechanism, and – of course – BS marks are widely faked.

I feel chaps get CE marks out of perspective. As a system it's on a par with the others. Sure it's misused on on cheap tat, but as a system it's much more effective on expensive goods. I shall be very surprised if CE marks disappear within ten years, if ever, on British imports and exports.

The key to all these systems is enforcement, or rather lack of. For good and bad reasons most governments strongly favour self-regulation and few maintain well-staffed Trading Standards organisations. These are too busy to worry about grandad buying a £4.99 Rolex on ebay when big money crime like counterfeit tobacco is rampant. (No CE marks on fake fags!)

I'm afraid 'where there's a will there's a way' isn't an effective way of solving difficult legal or economic problems. Works well enough for geeing up a tired Rugby team, but total poo as a way of passing A-Level Maths after not bothering to study the subject.

No need to argue about it. Time will tell.

Dave

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

If the CE mark is now a complete waste of time then it may as well be dispensed with, it has no value to me as it is so widely faked, the rubbish about China Export is probably because they got caught out and just manufactured a lie or deliberately set out to deceive. The part of the CE process that has any value is probably the documentation that demonstrates compliance. Perhaps the symbol should be changed and then if that turns up faked then it would be obvious that a deliberate fraud is going on and not an accidental similarity which I am sure was no accident.

Mike

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

If anyone is foolish enough to think swapping a BS kitemark for a CE mark is going to have any effect in the real world is as deluded as anyone who thinks swapping the BS kitemark for a CE mark changed anything…

The point where a CE mark has its effect is when your product kills or injures someone, sets fire to their home or some such incident.

The seller/importer is then asked to produce the certification evidence for the CE mark. If they have it, then they may well be able to escape legal liability for what went wrong.

If they can't, then they are probably deeply in the doody.

In short, anyone falsely certifying products as CE compliant is gambling.

Neil

[Ian Johnson 1Participant @ianjohnson1]

Good point regarding changing the symbol, it could work but only if it is rigorously enforced. Bit like when John Bloor bought Triumph motorcycles, first thing he did was to change the Triumph logo, and make sure the new logo wasn't used without permission. The old logo is fair game for copiers.

I always get my quality tools from reputable dealers, like Machine DRO, Chronos, Arc to name a few. I am confident they would never sell fake stuff. They have got a lot more to lose from selling fake products than I have.

Ian

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Mike Poole on 15/08/2019 18:20:00:

If the CE mark is now a complete waste of time then it may as well be dispensed with, it has no value to me …

Mike

Trouble is CE Marks are essential when the UK wants to export to Europe. Unlike the cheap Chinese tat people get aerated about seriously big money is at stake.

Say a British company wants to sell 50 new £2M MRI Scanners to Germany. The product has to be CE marked. Today the mark is obtained by preparing the technical file etc and presenting it to a British Notifying Body who authorise the CE mark. There are four Notifying Bodies in the UK qualified to CE certify medical equipment. Post-Brexit, all UK Notifying Bodies are disqualified! In future any British exports requiring a CE Mark will have to obtain it from an approved EU-27 Notified Body, that is one not in this country.

As 55% of UK exports go to Europe dumping CE marking is unlikely.

Dave

 

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 15/08/2019 20:05:26

[Jens Eirik Skogstad 1Participant @jenseirikskogstad1]

Compare the CE marking and learn out which of them is real or fake as here.. Real CE vs fake CE..

[Mark Gould 1Participant @markgould1]

Regardless of the markings, the thing that would scare me most about buying fake calipers is that as the battery depletes they can start giving erroneous readings. I think AvE did a video about this a couple of years ago. Either AvE or Pierres Garage I can’t remember,

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

To be pedantic, it's not the CE mark that is fake, it's that the product is non-compliant. For most things its self certification. As has been said a lack of enforcemet is an issue. Unless there is a complaint or injury there is no enforcement. The Australian system, CTick, haas the useful twist that while self certifiying you have to register the product (on line these days) so they can do random spot checks without ever having to see the product on the market.

The big problem is no one seems to care. There is also an issue with one offs and items built for own use. There is a common misconception that these are exempt, but they are not. There used to be an exemption from actually marking in the old Low Voltage Directive (you still had to do all the compliance work) which was often quoted in this regard. It was dropped in the new revision. It is a potential issue for companies who mke equipment for use in house. In the event of an accident they could be prosecuted or have insurance invalidated.

Robert G8RPI.

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember32069]

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[Former MemberParticipant @formermember32069]

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[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Barrie Lever on 15/08/2019 21:49:38:

Dave

You really don't know what you are talking about regarding CE marking, as Robert has said the great majority of products are self certified.

The very clear difference between CE and UL/CSA is that the latter have to be submitted to the test house.

Check out the following and get back to me if I need to issue you an apology !!

https://cemarking.net/ce-self-certification/

https://www.conformance.co.uk/ce-marking-for-products/ce-marking-basic-information#what-can-i-do-myself

CE marking is not worth the small amount of ink used to print the label.

The system needs to be independently verified with a unique ID for each product, then it would have some value, like I say, where there is a will there is a way.

Regards

Barrie

Phew, thank god Barrie has pointed out I don't understand the CE system! Now there will be no real world consequences from the mistake. What a relief!

Unfortunately reading Barrie's links soon show it is Barrie who has the wrong end of the stick. True it is possible to self-certify quite a wide range of items at the moment. But self-certification applies to the cheap simple stuff with low safety issues, not the high-value items that make up British exports. (Non-EU manufacturers cannot self-certify; they can provide the documentation and markings, but it is the importer who is responsible.)

Presumably Barrie read the phrase;Generally, you can do everything yourself because the CE marking procedure is one of self-certification.' and stopped reading. The next sentence is: 'The only cases where it is not possible for the manufacturer/importer to do everything themselves are when the relevant directives specifically state that a Notified Body must be involved in the assessment of the products. These are organisations designated by national governments of the member states as being competent to make independent judgments about whether or not a product complies with the essential safety requirements laid down by the directives.' Broadly, this covers Medical Equipment, Radio Equipment, Pressure Equipment, ATEX (Explosive Atmospheres), Machinery, Work Equipment, and General Product Safety.

I'll try and make the point again: scrapping a system because no-one bothers to enforce minor transgressions (a local funding choice), is a bad idea when it screws over British exports of expensive items. Barrie is inflamed about Far Eastern import "bargains" that turn out to be duds, I'm worrying about British exports to Europe worth about £250,000,000,000 a year. That part of the CE system works. Anyone ever seen a European CE mark that was faked?

Just to finish off, self-certification is only legal when done in an EU member state. Self-certified CE Marks issued in the UK have no validity after Brexit until reasserted by the European importer. Be interesting to see how the Europeans respond to that detail; they might ignore or it, or they might apply the rules rigorously, inspecting containers at the border and turning back any containing non-compliant goods. You can't leave a club and expect to keep member privileges.

Dave

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, it is a possibility that the frames are made in the same factory or maybe not in their own factory. Very often factories supply components in a standard raw condition and the individual companies that supply the items to the market will finish them to their own standards. As far as the labels are concerned, they can be printed again from the same factory but using standard artwork, which can be arranged as required. I've done installation work in a factory where they print sleeves for plastic bottles, their range is quite vast and is on bottles of very many brand names you see on the High Street. Below is a photo of two callipers that I have, one is about ten years old and the other is about nine years old. They were both about the same price and both read the same by my mic standards that I have and are very accurate and repeatable. Wonder if anyone can guess where I bought each of them.

Regards Nick.

Edited By Nicholas Farr on 16/08/2019 09:23:39

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 16/08/2019 09:03:03:

[ … ]

Anyone ever seen a European CE mark that was faked?

.

I honestly wouldn't know, Dave

All the ones I have seen looked real enough … but I suppose that's where lies the skill of fakery.

MichaelG.

.

Edit: These must be getting pretty close:

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Electronics-Silver-CE-Certificate-Stickers_663718812.html?spm=a2700.7724857.normalList.81.12d812benwoef6

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 16/08/2019 09:57:54

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, I agree with MichaelG about knowing if a CE mark is genuine or fake. I watch that programme on TV Fake or Fortune very often and very often the artwork comes to within a hair's breadth of being genuine and having convincing but misleading provenance and a lot of painstaking research has to be done before an expert gives the final verdict.

Regards Nick.

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember32069]

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[Former MemberParticipant @formermember32069]

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[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Barrie Lever on 16/08/2019 10:10:31:

Dave

90% of CE marked products are self certified.

Do you really think that the mass of goods coming in from China and made by small Chinese companies have been certified in the EU? of course not, that is why they created 'China Export'.

How on earth are the Japanese and Americans getting all of their expensive medical equipment into the EU? well it is the same way that the UK will do when we are out, we will just follow the rules and get the equipment certified.

I stand by the argument that there is no point in a marking system that has no traceability.

We are so far apart on this that we really should call it a day and get back to making swarf !!

Regards

Barrie

Barrie,

Problem is, isn't operating under a series of misunderstandings likely to result in bad decisions?

What's the value of self-certified goods compared with the value of Notified Body certifications? Surely it's a mistake to confuse volume with value.

There is no such thing as 'China Export', it has no official standing anywhere. If the mass of Chinese goods in the country haven't been certified, why not? Importers are responsible for doing it, not the Chinese. It's a failure to enforce the system, not a failure of the system itself.

As we share a common language, a rather popular route for American goods seeking certification is to have it done in the UK. This business will probably move to Eire.

Personally I like systems like UL that require open traceability, but they are expensive overkill on most ordinary items, extra bureaucracy and cost. Not done previously in the UK where most manufactured items weren't produced to a British Standard.

As I remarked earlier, we don't need to argue about it. The die is cast. Bet you 50p CE Marks survive! We'll come back to the subject in a year and take stock…

Dave

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember32069]

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