Chinese lathes

[Chris TriceParticipant @christrice43267]

When I first started, like most, I bought the tooling that looked good value for money but as my standards of accuracy increased, its shortcoming became more apparent. I must have at least two far eastern R8 arbor with tapers for Jacobs chucks that are beautifully finished but are eccentric more than .002″. The problem is that once the trust has gone, you tend to avoid certain retailers unless you can actually see the goods at a show before buying. Obviously for some tooling, dimensional accuracy is not an issue but for stuff that matters, it’s either well branded equipment for me or if the item is potentially expensive, well branded second hand equipment.

 

Materials is another issue. A very well known retailer here beginning with ‘C’ sells chuck backplates, in this case beautifully machined and accurate in steel (this may have now changed). Fine for occasional use but steel against a steel lathe spindle is not good from a wear point of view which is why backplates should be cast iron. OK, that’s not a biggie but does illustrate that cheapness or ease of manufacture comes before appropriateness. Retailers are bright. They’re not there to do you a favour. They exist to sell goods. You get what you pay for.

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi Bogs, my sentiments exactly, your supplier should aways be given thier chance first. I have had things from high street shops with problems, have taken them back and explaned politely the problem and have had them changed, no hassel.

 

Regards Nick.

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi Chris, not sure if your steel against steel in this context really has a wear issue, as it is does not have any movement once mounted and in use. I have steel backplates on some of my chucks and have not noticed any problem. they are of course cleaned and lightly oiled prior to mounting them.

 

Regards Nick.

Edited By Nicholas Farr on 22/11/2010 10:50:13

[Steve GarnettParticipant @stevegarnett62550]

Posted by Bogstandard on 22/11/2010 10:24:08:

 

I know for a fact that some of the mods I have shown on sites belonging to suppliers have directly resulted in certain mods being done to machines at the factory.

 

So it does work, they do listen to the little man in the street, sometimes.

Whilst I agree with everything you’ve said, I can’t help but wonder about the situation with the casting sand in the gearbox cover. Chinese manufacturers have been moaned at, and told about this for donkey’s years now, and yet they still persist in leaving it. Which can only really lead to the conclusion that this happens on purpose. How do you stay in the mass production business, after all? By manufacturing excellent lathes that last forever, so nobody ever needs a replacement? I think not…

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

don’t know if they still are, but when I bought my lathe in 1986, the sales man at the Co I purchased it from had just returned from visiting the factory in Taiwan, where he discovered that they made the beds for Colchester lathes, he was told that Colchester bhad the beds made in Taiwan, and mad the heads in England.Ian S C

[adyParticipant @ady]

I must have at least two far eastern R8 arbor with tapers for Jacobs
chucks that are beautifully finished but are eccentric more than .002″.

 

That sounds like piecework pressures, like the dodgy wobbly tolerances of our own 1950s and 1960s British motor industries.

Crank ’em out by the squillion or you don’t get paid, accuracy is secondary. sell! sell! sell!

 

I made my first ever collet chuck, a biggie for some old ward captan lathe collets, never done anything like it before…ever…and managed 0.0015″.

 

Even my old unimat toy lathe is accurate to a hundredth or two of a millimeter.

 

 

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Sorry about the length of this post but I think that we should all know and demand our rights under Law,

 

Only one person here has mentioned the ‘Sale of Goods Act 1979 (as amended)’.

 

In the UK this is a very powerful piece of legislation meant to protect the rights of a buyer.  Under this law when you buy a product the process is defined as a contract and there are certain conditions that the product must fulfil. They must be:-

 

• satisfactory,
• as described, and
• fit for their purpose.

It is the responsibility of the seller to ensure these conditions and any problems are also their responsibility, not the manufacturers.  This is because your contract is with the seller not the manufacturer.  Depending on the product, if these faults appear in the first 6 months and you inform the seller in this time you can demand a refund, after this period you have up to 6 years to claim (Scotland 5 years) and can ask for compensation, usually a repair, replacement or cash compensation depending on the use you have had.  Of course the time scales vary according to the perishable nature of the goods.  Don’t expect to claim for stale bread after 6 months

 

In the examples in this thread I would have said that legally the lathe with sand in crucial places and rusty components was neither ‘satisfactory, ‘as described’ (“superb quality”) or ‘fit for it’s purpose’.

 

The same could be said for an incomplete ‘set’ of BA taps or a marking gauge that would not clamp or a brazed on carbide tip which ‘fell off”.

 

The actions taken should be to inform the supplier and ask for action under this act.  If they refuse to act you can use the Small Claims procedure to take a supplier to court and claim both the cost of the purchase or repair and the court costs.  Most suppliers will not let the actions go that far.  There are sample letters on Trading Standards web sites that can act as a template. See here for Leicestershire’s T.S. examples

 

What you should not do is to try to fix the faults yourself and then moan on a forum like Victor Meldrew, That gets no-one anywhere except high blood pressure.  Only if we all complain properly and use the law, if necessary, will sellers get the message and get these things put right at the manufacturers.

 

Phew

 

Terry

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Before you all say he should have contacted Warco first etc why not read the captions under the photos, it would seen Warco have already supplied this lathe as a replacement.

 

“But we get what we pay for, even though this machine and the even worse one it replaced is advertised as ‘Superb quality’.”

 

Hopefully Lathejack will comment otherwise its all just speculation.

 

If it were returned as unfit for purpose what would he replace it with in the same price bracket which is what JS was saying either pay the low price and get what you pay for or pay a lot more and have it work out of the box.

 

Jason

Edited By JasonB on 22/11/2010 16:47:01

[Peter G. ShawParticipant @peterg-shaw75338]

Sam Stones,

 

Many thanks for pointing out how to find the photos and captions.

 

John S,

 

Not asking for PC, but am asking for politeness. If you re-read what I said, you will see that I said something like “By all means tell people they are wrong, but do it politely.” By all means call a spade a shovel, but not a bloody shovel! It’s demeaning when done in print and in public.

 

Regards,

 

Peter G. Shaw

[Billy MillsParticipant @billymills]

It seems to be common knowlege that many  Chinese lathes and mills contain sand and swarf when puchased and are so unfit for use – as supplied-  because that use could result in self destruction.

 

However every warrenty I have seen has a “do not dismantle or modify ” clause. If you open the box and take it apart then  put it back together – without a real workshop manual- then how can the supplier then be held liable?

 

So you might think that there is a Catch 22 , how do you know it is safe to use your new machine without taking it apart and invalidating the warrenty?

 

The way out is for the UK distributors to insist that the machines they buy  are fit for use from the packing as that is the legal need  within the UK. If they want to continue to sell products that may be defective as supplied then they need to inspect and re-work to get the machines to the required UK standard. Arc seem to be the only supplier who do admit to the sand issue and describe what needs to be done. Come on Suppliers, it is not fair to supply nice people who may be on a last time purchase with machines that may be self destructive. It also happens to be illegal.

 

Regards

Alan.

 

 

[Tony Pratt 1Participant @tonypratt1]

You obviously get plenty of metal for your money and as an owner of an old Super 7 with all it’s size limitations I am tempted by the shiny offerings of Warco etc but as a Toolmaker I don’t know if I could accept their shortcomings albeit at a very reasonable price.

I really can’t get my head around the mentality of manufacturers who allow sand and swarf etc to contaminate what is meant to be a precision machine tool, I suppose they are trying to shave every extra penny off the cost.

Tony

[Steve GarnettParticipant @stevegarnett62550]

Posted by Tony Pratt 1 on 22/11/2010 17:47:48:

I really can’t get my head around the mentality of manufacturers who allow sand and swarf etc to contaminate what is meant to be a precision machine tool, I suppose they are trying to shave every extra penny off the cost.

 

Well judging by the amount of casting sand they are giving away, you’d have thought that they might well have been wanting to save on that too…

 

The purchaser may have intended to buy a precision machine but it’s demonstrably true that this is not what the manufacturers are primarily interested in selling at all, is it? As to whether the supplier in this country would have any redress against a Chinese manufacturer (which is one of the issues here) is, to say the least, dubious. How many lathes and mills would Warco (or any of the other suppliers) sell at all if they were absolutely truthful in their product descriptions? Answer is probably just as many – simply because there is no alternative choice within the price bracket that the majority can afford. So where’s the incentive for anybody in the chain to do anything about this at all? I’d say it doesn’t exist. So what happens instead is that the few people who make massive complaints get something done about it, but the majority either invalidate warranties, or put up with it. And when the machines finally get beyond the pale, they either get another one or give up. That appears to be fine; the suppliers can afford to fall over backwards for a few people (and they clearly do), and the manufacturers have to do nothing that will actually cost them anything at all. Bogs made a point earlier that a few things have been changed because of complaints – I wonder how many of those things actually cost any real money to implement?

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

It’s worth noting that Arc sell their machines at two price points – one cheaper as imported, and one for a stripped, cleaned and adjusted machine. This is an honest and transparent way of dealing with the issues above.

 

When I bought my mill from Arc, I was told it had a mod that cured a problem, but not what the mod was (I’m guessing a steel gear to replace the plastic one?) A blown speed card (due to a loose screw shorting it) was replaced straight away, although I understand they have discontinued this model (X3) because of an unrelated conrtroller board issue.

 

Neil

[Keith Wardill 1Participant @keithwardill1]

There seems to a big difference between retailers of these machines – in these threads there are people strongly supporting Warco, and others condemning them. I have an identical machine to the one shown at the head of this thread right down to the colour, but it was bought from RC Machines in Trier, Luxembourg. The machine was in perfect condition when I bought it about 4 years ago – it was clean, no trace of sand, swarf etc – I don’t know if that was how it was supplied by the factory, or if RC had prepared it pre-sale, but I mention just to show that however these machines leave the factory, some suppliers do provide a good service.

 

I also have a version of the minilathe sold in England by Clarke (CM300), only I bought mine from Rotwerk in Stuttgart – again nothing but satisfaction – and it did run ‘straight from the box’ – I even got a calibration certificate with it.

 

So it seems to me that as someone here said – Let the buyer beware. It must be very confusing for beginners particularly when they ask for recommendations in these forums, and they end up with a long string of contradictory views – it seems to me that the only reliable way to make an assessment of these machines is to personally inspect the machine before buying, which is not always possible.

 

I hope John Stevensons earlier comments are not going to be the norm – some of the American engineering forums have been destroyed by abusive comments, bad language and off-thread content – Jens and others are entitled to their opinions, and if you don’t agree, by all means point them out – don’t start a fight.

[Jens Eirik Skogstad 1Participant @jenseirikskogstad1]

Posted by Steve Garnett on 22/11/2010 19:03:50:

 I wonder how many of those things actually cost any real money to implement?

 

  Exactly, it certainly costs time and money for the factory to clean parts before the parts are machined ready for assembly. Produce as many as possible in a short time and save costs for cleaning

Read about the plant’s claims about “HOW WE CONTROL QUALITY?” in the Brief :  http://www.weiss.com.cn/brief.htm

The Chinese box is full of surprises.  If you really want this machine tool you want in the workshop room, I would recommend taking the total cleaning and lubrication of machine tools to be sure they will last long. It is the best guarantee against future surprises by opening the machine tool for inspection when it really something wrong with them after a few hours of use in the tool room.

I think they make real nice machine tools for low cost, despite all the bad cleaning of parts free for sand and chip before assembly.

Edited By Jens Eirik Skogstad on 22/11/2010 19:49:33

[Steve GarnettParticipant @stevegarnett62550]

It may be like laptops – they all come out of the same few factories, but different manufacturers specify different builds. But Keith, if it’s the same machine then it has to be either RC Trier or the manufacturer, doesn’t it? And I would have thought that it’s far more likely to be the importer – can’t see the manufacturer being that willing to upset a production line. The variable price level structure certainly seems to be an acceptable way of getting around some of these problems, but clearly customers need to be well advised as to the extent of what they might have to do. And at that point, it really is a matter of Caveat Emptor.

[Gray62Participant @gray62]

I do not see the need for abusive or offensive comments in this or any other forum.

John Stevenson, you are bang out of order in your arrogant attitude and you have no place in this forum if you think that you can say just whatever you want. Remember, as David quite rightly pointed out, the deputy editor is a female as may may be other forum members, and we also encourage younger members to participate in these activities. If you are the older generation then I find it difficult to understand your attitude, if you are of the younger persuasion, then I may give some latitude considering the modern climate and attitudes, that said bad language, expletives etc are unnecessary and unwelcome. Cal a spade spade or a shovel or what ever you wenat, but do it with decorum and consideration for others. Arrogance does not endere you to anyone.

 

Now back to the subject… 

[Steve GarnettParticipant @stevegarnett62550]

Posted by Jens Eirik Skogstad on 22/11/2010 19:48:53: 

 
Read about the plant’s claims about “HOW WE CONTROL QUALITY?” in the Brief :  http://www.weiss.com.cn/brief.htm

The Chinese box is full of surprises.  If you really want this machine tool you want in the workshop room, I would recommend taking the total cleaning and lubrication of machine tools to be sure they will last long. It is the best guarantee against future surprises by opening the machine tool for inspection when it really something wrong with them after a few hours of use in the tool room.

I think they make real nice machine tools for low cost, despite all the bad cleaning of parts free for sand and chip before assembly.

 

I read that…

 

“There are lots companies stating they have ‘quality control’ for their products but most only do an inspection when the goods are ready for shipment. At this stage it is hard to resolve a problem with the factory if you find something wrong! We are one of the few companies who can offer inspections not only when the machine is finished but also during the manufacturing. Our trained inspectors will stay in the factories to make sure that our standards are meet and after years of cooperation with these factories we can rely on their support, as they know they also will finish up with a more marketable product when all the checks are carried out. The inspector’s job is to follow the assembly of the machines through the different processes including painting and packing. All this can guarantee that the product will meets our specifications and quality standards before it is shipped to you. “

 

So this is either complete BS, or… not. Well perhaps not. Nowhere do they tell you exactly what these ‘standards’ are, do they? It’s a bit like BS9001 or whatever – if your firm’s book tells you that you have agreed to produce rubbish to a certain standard, then that’s exactly the standard you have to keep up! So perhaps the lathe factory has an inspector who makes sure that all the stuck casting sand remains in the lathe gearboxes, and they can’t leave without it…

[James fortinParticipant @jamesfortin46829]

even if i bought a new lathe that said “ready to run”. i would still want to strip it and rebuild it just so i can see for my self that everything has been adjusted right and will not wear prematurely.

 

though its probably just paranoia 

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Optimum also market this lathe and say it is made to DIN 8606 (toolmakers precision)

 

Anyone know what this DIN standard actually is?

 

J

[DustyParticipant @dusty]

Din 8606 is the standard for machine tools of normal accuracy (what is normal accuracy you might ask)  I suspect,but do not know, that it is less than the standard we would normally expect of a’ toolroom’ lathe. A toolroom lathe is only a lathe that is capable of maintained accuracy, most of our lathes are capable of the same sort of accuracy but require much tweeking to maintain it.

[James fortinParticipant @jamesfortin46829]

i emailed excel machine tools for a price for this machine and they quoted me nearly £3000 if this is almost twice the price of the warco model it must be of better build quality or someones getting a bigger paycheque:-]

[Steve GarnettParticipant @stevegarnett62550]

According to the only reference that makes sense that I could find without paying for it, 8606 isn’t the toolroom standard, but 8605 is. And in the same place (Tony’s lathes site) it is observed that the particular lathe referred to (not the one referred to in this thread) doesn’t make anything like a toolroom standard, simply because it isn’t heavy enough. So reading between the lines, it looks as though these standards don’t really mean much at all in terms of what we might think was applicable to lathe specifications. Perhaps somebody who actually has access to either of them could enlighten us?

[Jens Eirik Skogstad 1Participant @jenseirikskogstad1]

Posted by James fortin on 22/11/2010 20:14:28:

even if i bought a new lathe that said “ready to run”. i would still want to strip it and rebuild it just so i can see for my self that everything has been adjusted right and will not wear prematurely.

 

though its probably just paranoia 

 

 I am working as Peugeot car mechanic, and i can tell the new car are not “ready to run”. The car must be checked for the faults and defects and then the car are washed free for storing wax and interior of the car are cleaned. Then the customer are receiving the car with full warranty in 3 year + information how to learn out and use the new car (The car seller do it for the customer) before leaving the car shop as new car owner with a new car.

 

Also both car and lathe are familiar in situation and not “ready to run”, both need inspection and cleaning.

 

JasonB wrote this

Optimum also market this lathe and say it is made to DIN 8606 (toolmakers precision)

 

Anyone know what this DIN standard actually is?

 

DIN DIN 8606 Machine Tools; Lathes of Normal Accuracy; Swing up to 800 mm; Acceptance Conditions

 

Edited By Jens Eirik Skogstad on 22/11/2010 21:17:01

Edited By Jens Eirik Skogstad on 22/11/2010 21:23:51

[GoCreateParticipant @gocreate]

 

1. I am happy to buy from Arc Euro because there terms and condition of sale are upfront and honest, they don’t poetry there products to be anything other than what they are. Then they give me an upfront choice, dismantle, clean and rework parts myself or use there services. Does their advice to strip and clean invalidate the warranty?

2. Members of this hobby should be loyal to fellow modellers first and suppliers that poetry their products as something they are not second.

3. Suppliers have known about this problem of casting sand for years but seem to take the view of out of site out of mind, so long as it lasts the warranty period who cares? It’s a lack of respect for the customer.

4. Thanks lathejack, you have shown us the true storey of what to expect and how to protect our meagre investment and have a serviceable machine at the end of it, better that than run the machine to destruction.

5. Thanks Arc Euro for your up front and honest marketing policy.

6. I don’t believe it’s an expensive exercise for manufacturers to properly clean parts before assembly and not allow components to rust; it’s a minimum quality expectation what ever the price.

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