Cheaper boring tooling suitability

[choochoo_balooParticipant @choochoo_baloo]

[choochoo_balooParticipant @choochoo_baloo]

I now wish to progress onto boring and want to buy an indexable boring tool. Whilst looking through arceurotrade, I realise that I can either go fro the cheapaer Chinese ~£17, or the quality Japanese tools ~£90.

I am a very firm believer in buying the most expensive tools one can afford, but have read on here and elsewhere that others achieve excellent results with the former (non-Japanese).

So my question is: for a commited newcomer looking to built up a quality tool kit over time, are the unbranded/cheaper indexable boring tools and inserts actually more than good enough (I am using a Myford ML7)?

Any advice gratefully received.

Edited By choochoo_baloo on 20/06/2017 14:42:17

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Holders are good enough, put a brand name tip on it to make it even better.

Edited By JasonB on 20/06/2017 15:04:03

[Tony Pratt 1Participant @tonypratt1]

I would give the budget boring tools a go, yes try a named tip also the screws aren't always the best in cheapo tooling.

Tony

[richardandtracyParticipant @richardandtracy]

Well, I don't know what size you're going for, but I got this tiny one: **LINK** in April and have found it perfect for working with pens. 10 inserts + holder for £6.99, if the holder dies on me before the inserts are worn out, I still reckon I'm quids in as it has let me do a job with the money I have, as opposed to putting the job off for years while I try to justify £90 or some other silly price needed to get a branded item.

Regards,

Richard.

[Clive Brown 1Participant @clivebrown1]

I'm interested in this thread. I recently purchased an Arceurotrade indexable boring bar, the low-cost Chinese type with a standard tip. This was to supplement the collection of mainly HSS boring tools used on my Boxford ME10. The attraction was the compact dimensions of the "sharp end" and the avoidance of what can be extensive grinding of HSS to make a shaped tool.

I can only say that I'm badly disillusioned. The surface finish is terrible in mild steel, En3, a bit better, but still poor in some tougher stuff, possibly EN8. I've tried ramping up the speed, as seems to be advised in places, but with little improvement. I now see this tool as little better than useless except for the most crude roughing cuts.

OK, I must be doing it wrong, would an expensive tip transform things? The bar itself seems reasonably well made and it's held rigidly. I should say that I sometimes use carbide tipped tools for external turning with no real problems.

Any advice appreciated!

Clive

[Tony Pratt 1Participant @tonypratt1]

Posted by richardandtracy on 20/06/2017 15:32:54:

Well, I don't know what size you're going for, but I got this tiny one: **LINK** in April and have found it perfect for working with pens. 10 inserts + holder for £6.99, if the holder dies on me before the inserts are worn out, I still reckon I'm quids in as it has let me do a job with the money I have, as opposed to putting the job off for years while I try to justify £90 or some other silly price needed to get a branded item.

Regards,

Richard.

How in gods name are they turning these out for £6.99?

Tony

[richardandtracyParticipant @richardandtracy]

I have no idea, and it includes postage. I can't send a parcel half way across the world for less than £3.60.

Regards,

Richard

[mickParticipant @mick65121]

The boring bar is just to hold the insert, its the insert that needs to be a reasonable quality. I've bought a set of eight boring bars from Alidirect for around £40.0 and I can't fault them, even with the inserts that came with them, but you can buy a packet of named inserts from the same source a whole lot cheaper than in the UK. If there is a draw back you may have to wait two to three weeks for delivery.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by choochoo_baloo on 20/06/2017 14:41:56:

I … want to buy an indexable boring tool. … I realise that I can either go fro the cheapaer Chinese ~£17, or the quality Japanese tools ~£90.

I am a very firm believer in buying the most expensive tools one can afford,

…

Any advice gratefully received.

Edited By choochoo_baloo on 20/06/2017 14:42:17

I'd say the answer depends enormously on why you are 'a very firm believer in buying the most expensive tools one can afford'.

I feel the 'buy expensive, buy once' advice is rather out-of-date. It made good sense up until about 1970 but after that competition in the tool market has been forcing prices down. In the old days quite a lot of stuff was either good or bad. Now there's a lot more choice in the middle.

Many years ago I was sent on a Budget Holder course. It advised that anyone using 'quality' to justify a purchase should be re-educated promptly with a baseball bat! The reason is that 'quality' is meaningless in engineering, and that chaps who simply want expensive goods are likely to be lazy or ignorant. Instead, the justification for buying anything should be framed in terms of being 'fit for purpose' and 'value for money'. Both of these have to be defined in advance and depend on what the tools are for. By applying that discipline to purchases you get more goodies for your money.

Tools that are 'fit for purpose' in the Duffer Workshop may not be 'fit for purpose' in yours. I'm an amateur, I'm not working to a target, and my tools don't get a hard life. That means I can risk using inexpensive tooling. If a tool breaks or becomes unsatisfactory I buy a new one and don't mind waiting for the replacement to turn up. With patience the tools produce good results. A 'buy cheap' policy works very well for me; for example 20 years ago I bought a cheap mitre saw for a DIY job needing about 100 cuts. Not only did the nasty saw do the job, it's coped with all my other woodwork requirements ever since. The saw is both fit for purpose and excellent value for money. I could have bought a much more expensive example. Had I done so the nice saw wouldn't have been used often enough to be value for money: I'd have wasted cash that I was able to spend usefully elsewhere. The saw isn't an isolated example, most of my tools have been bought after thinking about their value. Consequently I don't really have any favourites or anything to boast about.

My attitude would be very different if I earned a living from tools. Then reliability matters much more. So does the need for the tool to finish the job as quickly and neatly as possible, preferably requiring no skill whatever to use it. People who own tools to earn money are rarely nostalgic about them. As soon as something more profitable comes on the market, the old favourite ends up in a skip.

There's another valid reason for buying expensive. I have a couple of car/motorbike friends who get their kicks out of owning expensive tools. It makes them more confident and they enjoy using their kit. Nothing wrong with that, even if one of them does over-indulge his bragging rights! They do tend to get their legs pulled and it pays to be wealthy if pleasure in ownership is your motive.

In conclusion, you may have to make up your own mind about which boring bar you want. Mine are inexpensive and they work fine in a lathe more powerful than a ML7.

Whatever you decide, have fun.

Dave

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Tony Pratt 1 on 20/06/2017 16:08:55:

Posted by richardandtracy on 20/06/2017 15:32:54:

Well, I don't know what size you're going for, but I got this tiny one: **LINK** in April and have found it perfect for working with pens. 10 inserts + holder for £6.99, if the holder dies on me before the inserts are worn out, I still reckon I'm quids in as it has let me do a job with the money I have, as opposed to putting the job off for years while I try to justify £90 or some other silly price needed to get a branded item.

Regards,

Richard.

 

How in gods name are they turning these out for £6.99?

Tony

A. Bankrupt stock

B. Back door stolen stock/rejects, but still okay for hobby guys

C. Money laundry for black money

Pick one of the above, as ARC cannot even buy it at the price you see on ebay link, from the Chinese manufacturers it works with, nor could/would it be able to consider the said route. Still, if it works for the user, it works.

Ketan at ARC.

Edited By Ketan Swali on 20/06/2017 17:31:23

Edited By Ketan Swali on 20/06/2017 17:31:43

Edited By Ketan Swali on 20/06/2017 17:43:15

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Clive Brown 1 on 20/06/2017 15:53:58:

I'm interested in this thread. I recently purchased an Arceurotrade indexable boring bar, the low-cost Chinese type with a standard tip. This was to supplement the collection of mainly HSS boring tools used on my Boxford ME10. The attraction was the compact dimensions of the "sharp end" and the avoidance of what can be extensive grinding of HSS to make a shaped tool.

I can only say that I'm badly disillusioned. The surface finish is terrible in mild steel, En3, a bit better, but still poor in some tougher stuff, possibly EN8. I've tried ramping up the speed, as seems to be advised in places, but with little improvement. I now see this tool as little better than useless except for the most crude roughing cuts.

OK, I must be doing it wrong, would an expensive tip transform things? The bar itself seems reasonably well made and it's held rigidly. I should say that I sometimes use carbide tipped tools for external turning with no real problems.

Any advice appreciated!

Clive

Hi Clive,

Can't comment on your predicament, as there are too many variables.. what i can say is that we are happily selling both the Chinese and Sumitomo types in reasonable volume without difficulty.

Ketan at ARC.

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by choochoo_baloo on 20/06/2017 14:41:56:

I now wish to progress onto boring and want to buy an indexable boring tool. Whilst looking through arceurotrade, I realise that I can either go fro the cheapaer Chinese ~£17, or the quality Japanese tools ~£90.

I am a very firm believer in buying the most expensive tools one can afford, but have read on here and elsewhere that others achieve excellent results with the former (non-Japanese).

So my question is: for a commited newcomer looking to built up a quality tool kit over time, are the unbranded/cheaper indexable boring tools and inserts actually more than good enough (I am using a Myford ML7)?

Any advice gratefully received.

Edited By choochoo_baloo on 20/06/2017 14:42:17

If you are looking at general hobby work, the Chinese one should do you fine. I am also happy with the Chinese inserts which we sell for it as well as other applications by the bucket load, and we purchase these from a known factory, for its consistency. If you feel doubt, then consider the Sumitomo inserts, as necessary.

The Sumitomo holders are designed for production work. They are more rigid, and can deal with deeper holes without flexing, which is more common 'issue' with the cheaper holders.

Ketan at ARC.

[John HinkleyParticipant @johnhinkley26699]

Thanks for the link, Richard ( and Tracy ) – I've just ordered two, mainly for the inserts. I needed a super small boring bar, too, anyway!

John

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Clive Brown 1 on 20/06/2017 15:53:58:

I'm interested in this thread. I recently purchased an Arceurotrade indexable boring bar, the low-cost Chinese type with a standard tip. This was to supplement the collection of mainly HSS boring tools used on my Boxford ME10. The attraction was the compact dimensions of the "sharp end" and the avoidance of what can be extensive grinding of HSS to make a shaped tool.

I can only say that I'm badly disillusioned. The surface finish is terrible in mild steel, En3, a bit better, but still poor in some tougher stuff, possibly EN8. I've tried ramping up the speed, as seems to be advised in places, but with little improvement. I now see this tool as little better than useless except for the most crude roughing cuts.

I've got a carbide-tipped boring bar (not ARC), it only works if you mount it so the centre of the bar is at centre height, rotate it to drop the tip to centre height. If you mount it low and flat so the tip is at centre height, it rubs and does not cut freely, even in a surprisingly large hole.

Neil

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

As Neil says most of these bars have a minimum hole size, the smaller the hole the more tilt they have on the tip so it does not rub. If you are using one in a smaller hole than it is meant for that may be your problem. Pic I took when the subject came up last time These all come with flats to set the right angle.

Edited By JasonB on 20/06/2017 20:01:26

[Andrew TinsleyParticipant @andrewtinsley63637]

Hello,

I recently purchased a Chinese external turning tool from Arc and I find it to be problematical. It gives a half decent finish when used to turn down a bar of mild steel, but the finish is awful when facing off.

Now I have the highest regard for Arc, especially Ketan, who has spent some considerable time on the phone, helping me out on another topic (and he was paying for the call!). I DO NOT believe that the tool and tip are rubbish! I suspect that I am doing something wrong and I cannot figure out what it is!

I am not a raw beginner and have used HSS tools for a long time, achieving very fine finishes when required. I really don't know what I am doing wrong with this tool! It is 6mm square and is being used in a good quality Dickson type tool holder on an ML10. The tip came with the tool. I just wanted to try a tipped tool to see how it faired.

Andrew

[Tony Pratt 1Participant @tonypratt1]

Andrew,

Mild steel is not always the easiest to get a good finish on at the best of times. Try a new tip on centre height & run the lathe at top rpm.

You can try cutting dry or with cutting oil or soluble oil, see how it goes.

Tony

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Tony Pratt 1 on 21/06/2017 10:42:47:

Andrew,

Mild steel is not always the easiest to get a good finish on at the best of times. Try a new tip on centre height & run the lathe at top rpm.

You can try cutting dry or with cutting oil or soluble oil, see how it goes.

Tony

+1 for Tonys suggestion. The holder is fitted with a 0.4 radius tip – insert. In your case, if you are intending to use a new insert, consider trying a 0.8 radius tip – insert CCMT060208. This was a suggestion from the Sumitomo man, but it applies to these Chinese inserts too.

Ketan at ARC.

Edited By Ketan Swali on 21/06/2017 10:54:47

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Interesting advice Ketan, I have a box of 0.8r tips and seldom use them, they only come out of the box if I want a small internal radius when turning to a shoulder. The rest of the time I tend to use 0.4 or 0.2, one reason s that on slender work I find the larger tip tends to push the work away and give a bad finish.

J

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by JasonB on 21/06/2017 11:56:03:

Interesting advice Ketan, I have a box of 0.8r tips and seldom use them, they only come out of the box if I want a small internal radius when turning to a shoulder. The rest of the time I tend to use 0.4 or 0.2, one reason s that on slender work I find the larger tip tends to push the work away and give a bad finish.

J

Hi Jason,

You are special

Joking aside, you have good experience of using indexable carbide tooling, on your machine, combined with a clear understanding of your machines ability and rigidity.

Before considering to sell any carbide insert based lathe tools, I had a list of questions for the technical sales guy from Sumitomo.

NOTE: I am a fan of HSS tooling over carbide for general use on hobby or manual machines in a hobby environment. High speeds experimenting or use with carbide on such machines scares me, but that would be due to lack of experience.

The questions came out of observations at the shows we attended. At the shows, debates were had on HSS vs carbide. For carbide stuff, I used to direct enquirers to Jenni – JB Tools who I consider to be great for this stuff. However time and again, a certain percentage of users would come back to me with comments of disappointment after buying stuff from her. Something failed to add up. As far as I was concerned, JB Tools could not have been at fault.

I raised these points at that time with the Sumitomo guy some seven to eight years ago. This guy went on technical sales visits to factories around the U.K. offering solutions to the users. He explained:

1. Generally inserts are designed for use with CNC machines working at speeds which are much higher then the manual machines with which we work.

2. With manual machines, for general use, people buying stuff off Jennie may have purchased inserts less than 0.4r… If so, the probability of such inserts chipping or failing to give them a suitable result are high on manual machines, because most manual machines just don't have the rigidity to use fine radius inserts.

3. Combine point 2 with user ability and experience. He came across this during factory visits. Such users still wished to use carbide stuff. So, he suggested 0.4r for finer finishes, and 0.8r for general use, provided such machines were rigid enough, especially at higher speeds, be it the tool post or the headstock assembly.

4. For boring tools, i have put across what he told me. Also, he said that the fact that a boring tool holder is long, does not necessarily mean that it can extend out of the tool post at great length, without having a compromising effect – flex or vibration. Same comment applied to normal square holders.

So, I believe that the answer is more complex due to the variables involved. Having visited the factory where the inserts are made, they are 'state-of-the art' with Swiss machines, and so clean that you can eat off the floor!.

So variables: holder?, insert?, machine toolpost/headstock?, user ability?

Ketan at ARC.

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Although I have a couple of indexable-tip tools, and often use them, unless I've got quite a few similar components to make, I still find handgrinding HSS the most flexible method for tooling, whether turning, boring or flycutting.

I've just bought a new 3/8" boring bar that uses 1/8" square HSS bits. Very often I find I want to make an internal recess – for example to clear the thread runout from a plug tap in a flat-bottomed internal thread – so I'm quite likely to want some special shape. The only reason I bought a new bar is because the bit-clamp grubscrew thread on the old one gave up after I can't remember how many years.

I'm very glad of the time I spent in the past learning how to hand-grind HSS tools, and I think it would pay anyone to do so.

[Clive Brown 1Participant @clivebrown1]

Thanks Neil, Jason and Ketan for your interesting input. Since my post yesterday, I've spent some further time trying out my 10mm boring bar. On the piece of mild steel that I was using I didn't make much progress.

I have a 0.8mm tip as well as the 0.4mm supplied with the bar which I tried. There was possibly some improvement, but not a great deal.

I then tried some aluminium bar and 316 stainless with the 0.4mm tip. Finish was much better, so some satisfaction!

I used moderate speeds for all cuts, and around 0.003" – 0.015" depth and 0.003" – 0.006" feed.

I therefore subscribe to the view that mild steel isn't always easy with carbide, a pity, since it's a staple material and I can usually wangle a decent finish on it with HSS or even silver steel tool-bits.

Maybe free-cutting MS would help, I'll try to get hold of some.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

I oscillate between using HSS and Carbide. In my opinion they're both worth having but – as always – it depends on what you're doing and how you do it. HSS is easier to use, but it cuts slowly, isn't so good on hard stuff, doesn't last unless it's flood cooled, and you have to learn to grind. Carbide is easier to set up (no grinding or resetting tools) and – potentially – it lasts longer whilst removing metal much faster.

I dislike generalising about complex subjects but in my experience it's important to work carbide 2, 3 or 4 times faster than HSS, and to take deeper cuts, and – recent learning – to up the feed rate as well. Brutality is the order of the day and older kit may not be up to it. Myford lathes, for example, were designed to use HSS tooling decades before carbide inserts became widely available. Spindle speeds and motor power were decided with HSS in mind. On top of those restrictions an older lathe might be worn as well; if so, bad news – carbide needs rigidity.

My main problem with inserts is working out what to buy. I haven't found an easy explanation of what the different types are for. There are square, triangular, rhombic and circular inserts in a variety of rakes and geometries, with and without chip breakers. With luck CCMT060204 inserts are a good compromise for hobby work, but I don't really know.

Dave

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 21/06/2017 16:21:11:

My main problem with inserts is working out what to buy. I haven't found an easy explanation of what the different types are for. There are square, triangular, rhombic and circular inserts in a variety of rakes and geometries, with and without chip breakers. With luck CCMT060204 inserts are a good compromise for hobby work, but I don't really know.

Dave

That's only the half of it, what is written after that code can make a lot of difference too, each tip manufacturer may well have 10 or so different options for a CCMT 060204 insert. This is when they start to get specific for material, type of cut amount removed per cut etc. All good fun.

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