Cheap 3 in 1 tig welder – any one used one?

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

I just fitted a plug had some sparks out of it.

The plug proved interesting. They had fitted a nice neat shrink wrap type thing where the outer cable had been stripped off. I removed it as it makes wiring a UK plug as I do difficult also to check if the cables had been nicked during stripping. It hadn't. The leads they had left were way to long so trimmed them up cutting the live so that this will always pull out first if tugged too hard. I also didn't twist the copper to get it into the plug prongs – bad idea as they loosen after a time and need retightening. They don't if the copper isn't twisted up.

As there has been an "electric" thread thought I should mention that. Same goes when using wires in any screw type connection.

Anyway – bad news after a fashion. No idea what country does this but the earth cable was a lot lighter than live and neutral. Might be 1.5mm^2. I think I will change the mains lead. The live and neutral are probably 2.5mm maybe more. I suspect this explains the comment about adding another earth lead.

I just tried stick briefly. 30 amps and 1/16 electrode on a bit of 6mm mild steel. It strikes fairly easily, problems me as I haven't used one for a long time. It stuck on twice but the torch holds well enough to pull them off. I then managed 2 short wavy beads. Need to be steadier but kneeling on the floor didn't help. Really that thickness of plate would need a lot more current and a larger diameter rod but small rods can be used if they are run along slowly making sure that the parent metal is really melting. It probably reaches the lower needs of 4mm rods using ordinary electrodes.

One thing for sure striking the arc is a lot easier than my hobby level transformer one. Lots of people bought the same model as it stated a striking voltage and it was higher than many. Not sure if it matches an industrial transformer unit though.

One thing I don't like. The auto welding helmet I bought. While the see through bit looks large in the photo it isn't in practice. A bit too slot like for my tastes but usable.

John

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Edited By Ajohnw on 20/12/2016 13:20:34

[TobyParticipant @toby]

Posted by Ajohnw on 20/12/2016 13:18:15:

Anyway – bad news after a fashion. No idea what country does this but the earth cable was a lot lighter than live and neutral. Might be 1.5mm^2. I think I will change the mains lead. The live and neutral are probably 2.5mm maybe more. I suspect this explains the comment about adding another earth lead.

John

Err, that would be the UK that does that John

Ok, that isn't quite fair but it is true of fixed wiring – your ring final circuit is probably wired in 2.5mm2 L/N and 1.5mm E, assuming it is fairly modern. Some older circuits are closer to 3mm2 L/N and closer to 1mm2 earth in practice. I know, I am sad but have a vernier in my tool box when I am doing electrical work

The earth does not need to be as large as the L/N as it only takes fault currents for short duration, rather than full load continuously. So it is the let through energy that is important, not the continuous rating.

Unfortunately, for "mobile" wiring it is not possible to guarantee the fixed circuit it will plug into so it is safe to make the earth the same size as the line and neutral. However, if you know you are plugging it into a known circuit (like the aforementioned ring final circuit) then you might consider it overkill to change a cable to higher rating than the circuit it will be plugged in to

Of course I would not be saying you should not change the cable, Just that I would not lose any sleep over it if I was in your shoes.

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Interesting Toby. I rewired two houses many years ago and did some work in factories and never noticed that.

It did strike me that the earth wire is more than man enough to blow a 13amp fuse. That probably would prevent me from taking it apart.

Anyway it's an interesting piece of kit and so far looks promising. No guarantees given or implied.

Next thing is do I try tig for sparks without any gas? The power feed looks to be the same as stick but that is via some sort of inductor that may well be air cored and may have some sort of feedback. I didn't look that closely but it could be a form of current transformer.

John

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[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

John, I don't really think you're getting it. If you don't mention and ask for the Volkszone deal, you will indeed pay the professional prices. They aren't on the published price list and only apply to hobby users. You need to fill out a form that presumably allows you to declare that you are a hobby user. There are 2 gases – pure argon and argon-CO2 mix (the former for TIG, the latter for MIG, technically MAG in fact).

Rather than downloading price lists and fuming at the wrong prices, check out the prices several of us have posted in the thread above. You can take a horse to water but you can't make it drink…..

Murray

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

I will phone them Murray. I've too much on at the moment and don't expect to sort gasses out until past Xmas. Sorting odd bits and pieces has already taken me away from the kitchen work too often really.

I may have found a compressor for cutting. They claim 105 l/min at 4 bar. Stand on end type by Einhell. The motor rating sounds rather hobby but that's what I am. A rather high output for an oilless of this style.

John

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[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Posted by Ajohnw on 20/12/2016 16:51:31:

I will phone them Murray. I've too much on at the moment and don't expect to sort gasses out until past Xmas. Sorting odd bits and pieces has already taken me away from the kitchen work too often really.

I may have found a compressor for cutting. They claim 105 l/min at 4 bar. Stand on end type by Einhell. The motor rating sounds rather hobby but that's what I am. A rather high output for an oilless of this style.

John

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As mentioned – if on this scheme they charge for collect I doubt if I will have any dealings with them on principle but that's me. I wont be buying a bottle a week by any means. I will probably do what I did with propane. Choose a size that is well above my needs so that there is very likely to be some there if I need it. Also a size that I can move around easily.

The propane bottle is some what over 3ft tall. It doesn't get refilled very often. I was tempted to go for the next size up but have found that I don't need it. Argon will be much the same. My main reason for buying the welder is a dog cage – one dog cage. I have a wide range of tooling of all sorts for similar reasons. I would have to pay some one else to do the work without them. In this case that charge would not cover the welder cost but will pay for more than 1/2 of it. After that it's there to use. There is also a fun aspect. Good value for money really.

John

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Edited By Ajohnw on 20/12/2016 17:14:18

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Hope my last post didn't sound to terse Murray. Suppose I often do. This horse drinks from where it likes to. I just examine the options, Anyway.

I just tried tig with no gas. Not good for the ceramics on the end. Glowing red hot and I haven't look to see what has happened to the electrode and collet.

It was interesting. The unit makes a higher pitch buzz until the arc starts making that aspect easy. As the "manual" mentions it stops as soon as the arc starts. Think it deserves a better torch that takes standard parts. There is no collet holder as such which probably interferes with heat transfer and other things.

I burnt away the end of the ceramic and the electrode.

John

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Edited By Ajohnw on 21/12/2016 11:04:25

[Nick HughesParticipant @nickhughes97026]

You CANNOT TIG weld WITHOUT a shielding gas. This gas will usually be either PURE ARGON, ARGON/HELIUM mix, or PURE HELIUIM and just for the record (before you ask and ignore the answers), the ARGON/CABON DIOXIDE mixes, used for MIG, WILL NOT WORK.

As you appear to be ignoring all the advice, information and pointers given to you, good luck.

Edited By Nick Hughes on 21/12/2016 11:59:45

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Should add that I put 50amps through a 1/16 electrode. Suspect that is way too much ?

Also I probably have a stick welder user problem. I usually use the rod at an angle. As I burnt away one side of the ceramic I'd guess tig needs using square on.

Cutting will have to wait. I wont try that without something to hold the torch the correct distance from the work. Also a compressor will be needed. I've decided to trust the Einhell spec. Worrying as experience suggests that I shouldn't do that with German products. Some air fittings will be needed as well. The arrangement it comes with isn't too good really. It would work but be somewhat inconvenient if things need to be unplugged. The Einhell comes with a euro bayonet but it's easy to make an adapter to convert to pcl. I can buy odd pcl bits from down the road but they don't sell much in the line of fittings with tail ends. The ones that come with the unit are 1/4" bsp.

The prices for bent bits of wire to hold the cutting torch off seem to be excessive.

John

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[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Posted by Nick Hughes on 21/12/2016 11:51:27:

You CANNOT TIG weld WITHOUT a shielding gas. This gas will usually be either PURE ARGON, ARGON/HELIUM mix, or PURE HELIUIM and just for the record (before you ask and ignore the answers), the ARGON/CABON DIOXIDE mixes, used for MIG, WILL NOT WORK.

As you appear to be ignoring all the advice, information and pointers given to you, good luck.

Edited By Nick Hughes on 21/12/2016 11:59:45

I'm tempted to say get knotted. Do you really think that I don't know that tig needs a shielding gas? Did you notice that I did it without because I wanted to make sure sparks came out of it in tig mode and that gas wont be available for a while? Did you notice how many time I mentioned pure argon. I also want a decent regulator and flow meter before I even try using argon.That still hasn't arrived.

Like I said I will phone BOC when I am ready. Advice on the machine itself is pretty pointless really as I had decided to buy it and try it. Actually the machine is looking pretty promising. Given leak problems some have mentioned on cheap chinese units the answer is simple – fix or send back. No sparks would also cause me to send it back so I have checked that sparks do come out of it.

In short if you want to be rude get your facts right.

John

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[Ex contributorParticipant @mgnbuk]

An oil-free compressor may not be your best bet – they can only be operated on a very intermittent basis or they die quickly. Duty cycle for the Einhell vertical from their manual :

S3 25%: Intermittent mode, no start-up, no braking
(cycle duration 10 minutes). In intermittent
mode, the percentage load factor (25%) is always
quoted so that the heat generated during this period
can be dissipated during breaks in operation
by convective cooling. Intermittent mode consists
of the on time and the cooling breaks, known as
the duty cycle.
The period of consideration is 10 minutes. 25%
load factor means that the electric tool can be
operated for 2.5 minutes at the rated performance,
followed by a cooling phase of 7.5 minutes

An inexpensive oil type would be more reliable for periods of operation exceeding a few minutes. Oil free types are great if you want to blow up a tyre occasionally, but little else. Noisey too, but the same goes for the oil type single cylinder direct drive types.

Nigel B

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

I did notice the spec Nigel. It's pretty disgusting really but they do quote a flow rate. Many don't and the figures a lot give are meaningless in practice. I've been down into this area before. It leaves me wondering why some one doesn't make a cheap belt drive one. What they do instead is run it at 2,800 rpm which makes the things inefficient. I have wondered if it's possible to buy a likely candidate and convert one. Scheppach provide good info on compressors as they all should really. These could give people an idea of what to expect from others but other aspects can change the efficiency. There tends to be a jump to 100l / min at 4 bar. Few will reach it. None at the really cheap end as far as I can see.

I wouldn't advice any one else to risk it but feel it's worth a go. I am prepared to take a hit as they do have a good spares outlet. It's 10 bar. I need less than 4 – I hope. That should help somewhat but maybe not enough. The other aspect is how long am I likely to take during a cut. Might need to walk round the garden between cuts.

It's a facility that comes as an extra really. I only wanted stick and tig. I suspect

They do guarantee the tank for 10 years. Pity about the motor. As it is Gernan I will really wonder if it will actually provide the flow rate. However in other areas they do seem to be a decent company. It will however be the first product I will be buying off them.

On bottles a Y looks the best option for my use. Not because of a lot of use but so that it doesn't need refilling often. Another option might be a Genie bottle from BOC. Sort of in between. I have ordered a 300bar regulator. I believe that fits in with certain other BOC bottles. Hence phone calls to discuss costs etc. I really wont like paying a collection charge though.

John

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[Nick HulmeParticipant @nickhulme30114]

Single stage reg for Argon?

Nice one!

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Posted by Nick Hulme on 21/12/2016 23:37:43:

Single stage reg for Argon?

Nice one!

Perhaps I should expand on that a bit. Regulators vary usually based on price. I didn't like the look of the twin gauge ones that I could see and would buy. I wouldn't be able to buy a single stage one that I would be pretty sure would work really well with up to 300 bar capability so bought a preset which takes it down to 5 bar. I understand that can be adjusted if needed. This brings the pressure down to a level where I wont have much of a problem finding a decent regulator to add to it – if needed. In fact the one that comes with it may be ok. That would save disconnecting at the back of the welder. Changing that on the welder wouldn't be straight forwards so it's best to use the tail end that is fitted to it. There are several possible arrangements.

As it stands I'd expect to have to tweak the flow regulation each time I have a welding session. I wont be welding all day.

One thing I wouldn't do is buy a good quality twin gauge that would cost nearly as much as the welder. Probably more going on regulators that I have bought – at work.

John

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[Mark CParticipant @markc]

For the enlightenment of anyone reading this; two gauges does not equal two stage…. it just means you can read the bottle pressure and outlet pressure. Two stage regulators have a high pressure regulator on the bottle side and a second low pressure regulator fed off it for more accuracy. The flow regulators are simply a needle valve with flow measurement on the outlet side. This is most often a bob in a tapered tube which indicates the gas flow rate rather than the gas pressure. The flow rate (volume per unit of time) is important for welding methods relying on shield gas (MIG & TIG) as it becomes very important to control when you get into "proper" welding rather than DIY "sticking together".

I think there may be some qualified/experienced welders on here that may provide more detail rather than the normal bull that gets spouted if people ask?

Mark

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Thanks Mark – some reckon I type to much. Something i do pretty quickly but I only have so much time and full explanations would mean even more typing.

As I saw it in order to be fairly certain of flow levels as low as tig needs a combined flow meter and needle valve is a good idea. They don't cost much. Some outlets only stock ones that go to over 14 L/min I assume these are really for mig. Some stock both types. Without the gauge I wouldn't have any idea how much I was using or if the welder had a leak but I do have some leak detector spray – we had a gas leak. Then comes the over run on the control valve. Not that I could do anything about that if it's stupid.

The problem with regulators is getting one where the output remains constant as the pressure on the input changes. Using 2 in series helps but perfection is still costly.

John

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[bodgeParticipant @bodge]

Posted by Ajohnw on 22/12/2016 11:46:55:

Thanks Mark – some reckon I type to much. Something i do pretty quickly but I only have so much time and full explanations would mean even more typing.

The problem with regulators is getting one where the output remains constant as the pressure on the input changes. Using 2 in series helps but perfection is still costly.

John

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That is the reason for 2 stage regulator , makes for uniform output regardless of bottle pressure, basically two regulators in series , modern pcp air rifles use the same idea to get more shots per fill, and uniform pressure on each shot

As for too much typing, well it cant be said you were having Dirac moment…………..….b

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

I've got one for charging air riffles too but it's staying on the bottle. However I wouldn't expect that to charge to the same pressure as the air bottle runs down.

John

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[bodgeParticipant @bodge]

I think you have missed the point , the second regulator is fitted inside the air rifle in tandem to first regulator, never mind i"m sure you will work it out and do it your way

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

The regulator I used to charge the air rifles is 2 stage.

John

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[bodgeParticipant @bodge]

You have still missed the point, maybe your not reading my post properly ,Two regulators in series FITTED INSIDE the gun, IF your aware of the the two stage regulator for filling your air gun whats the problem to apply the same logic to welding bottle regulators……….Anyway i"m done cos as has been said before you are going to do it your way anyway.!

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Go search BOC for an argon regulator and see what comes up and what it's for.Like I said I didn't like the look of the twin guage ones that came up and sad but true I really do know something about the problems with regulators. People can make their own choice any way so why not post that way.

Eg Bodge wouldn't buy a single stage regulator so would by a dual and explain why. That would be useful to others.

Curiously if done correctly form 300 bar that will change rather a lot to some thing a lot lower a single regulator should have some compensation in it to account for pressure changes at the feed end. It wont be perfect. Few things in the real world are. Will it have, wont it have. I don't know. As mentioned if it turns out to be a problem I'll do something about it.

Wish the thing would arrive. I suspect they have sent it via a canal.

John

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[bodgeParticipant @bodge]

Posted by Ajohnw on 22/12/2016 15:53:39:

Go search BOC for an argon regulator and see what comes up and what it's for.Like I said I didn't like the look of the twin guage ones that came up and sad but true I really do know something about the problems with regulators. People can make their own choice any way so why not post that way.

Eg Bodge wouldn't buy a single stage regulator so would by a dual and explain why. That would be useful to others.

Curiously if done correctly form 300 bar that will change rather a lot to some thing a lot lower a single regulator should have some compensation in it to account for pressure changes at the feed end. It wont be perfect. Few things in the real world are. Will it have, wont it have. I don't know. As mentioned if it turns out to be a problem I'll do something about it.

Wish the thing would arrive. I suspect they have sent it via a canal.

John

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I have not stated i would not buy a single single stage regulator at any point in these post…..so there is nothing to explain, …………b ……As said in last post ….i"m done …even more so now i"m accused of writing or even implying what you have you have just stated,…..i would suggest to you to read the posts with little more attention to what is written…………b

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Sorry Bodge – I have been getting some silly flack from some and wrongly assumed your post was more of it.

What I did was look what BOC sold. Took note of some comments about dual gauge with one showing flow, which looked useless going on the scale shown in photo's anyway. I did use mig for a while and aren't keen on it. I did waste gas out of disposable on that so wanted a flow gauge anyway. Wondered about adapting that to a disposable bottle regulator and went of the idea due to gas usage. Then I ordered the stuff. After all how long am I likely to have a welder active ? Even if crap it may well regulate well enough for that sort of period of time.

More important really is how much excess pressure the regulator needs to function correctly 'cause that will set how low a bottle can be taken. Maybe BOC think 2 bars or maybe in practice it's over that. I did see a comment that presets can be adjusted. The ones I have seen at work can be anyway. Strongly suspect the one on order can be as well.

John

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[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

This what the 2 gauge units I have seen actually are. It can be confusing.

**LINK**

The 2nd gauge shows 0-30L/min. Some go higher. I've also read that some think that this style of regulator isn't terribly good at low flow rates. That wouldn't surprise me. They describe the other type as suitable for a laboratory use but some do use them.

**LINK**

I decided to go that way. In places parweld suggest using it with the 2 gauge one as well, Think people will see that if they search their site. Probably mentioned in the catalogue.

However real 2 stage ones can be bought and will show outlet pressure on the 2nd guage. I have one for air riffles. I wouldn't rely on it charging them correctly without twirling the knob until it shows the correct pressure for the gun so I always back it off before using it. Have to use a certain type of grease on the connections as well to make sure the gun doesn't explode – same stuff as divers use. Petroleum products would be bad news.

John

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Edited By Ajohnw on 22/12/2016 23:42:15

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