CE marking and Brexit

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

I'm just basing what I said on what you posted Neil. No more than that and feel you are reading more than intended into it. Common problem with legal speak.

After a fashion in a very odd way this link mentions laws and the impact of the EU and the 2nd one expands on why they are likely to remain as they are. More legal speak I am afraid.

**LINK**

Afraid this one is rather long but it does get to directives etc eventually. It's mostly on costs but explains why things like this will remain.

**LINK**

John

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[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Anna 1 on 04/08/2016 16:52:14:

…

However, It strikes me unless we get rid of the British disease whereby 10 men with clipboards tell the one poor little worker / business how to do/ not to do the job, and in essence just get in the way and cause unwanted problems, this country is going nowhere. It is no wonder this countrys productivity is so low.

…

Kind regards

Anna

Unfortunately the reason for low productivity in Britain isn't really "10 men with clipboards". If it were really that simple the problem would have been nailed long ago.

Hard to fix causes of British low productivity compared with similar economies include: persistent 10% – 30% lower investment in equipment, transport, infrastructure and R&D; chronic mid-range skills shortages; decision making in business and government that tends to favour quick returns rather than long-term improvements.

Historically the shortage of mid-range skills shortages in Britain has been alleviated by immigration. It will be interesting to see how Brexit squares that circle! Heavy investment in appropriate education and training will be needed to upgrade our workforce and it might take a decade or so before the benefits appear.

Regards,

Dave

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

Well summarised Dave.

On a vaguely engineering-related slant to the theme, you may have noticed that apprenticeships became very passe a decade ago. Many employers realised that they could save money by giving their apprentices the heave-ho. I recall it very well and was horrified at the time. It doesn't help when you are trying to find a skilled workforce to compete with other countries. I guess we were "living within our means".

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Traditional real apprenticeships that were not at least in part a method of getting cheap labour started disappearing a long long time ago. Too expensive when it was possible to get some one who could do the job. Time off for further education etc as well. This sort of relates to a rather odd one too – say you had a number of people who you might get another 10 or 20 years out of and there are certain levels of unemployment in a particular area – why bother training more?

I get the impression that graduates often have problems getting their first job in there chosen field. Having interviewed some I can well understand why. There is a job to be done and it needs some one who can definitely do it. And will do it when they find out what the job really involves. In some areas it's a fact that they are unlikely to contribute seriously for a fairly long time. There was a time when the sort of field I work in might have had 2 or 3 people about like that – if there were 10 or more doing the real work. More often than not now there will be just enough. Too many and somebody goes. So much for education. Companies did effectively do that themselves. These days suitable people have to grow on trees.

There is an education problem. Employers see them as a re assurance in terms of general levels of intelligence. Say O's and A's and expect people to have the basic skills that these imply. Seems they don't sometimes but as standards increase so do the job requirements so if someone hasn't got much in that line they can't expect much. This wasn't the case quiet a few years ago. If people could show the ability they could progress.

John

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[Sam Longley 1Participant @samlongley1]

Our family had apprentices for years but quite honestly the standard of Yoof coming forward became so poor that it became difficult to find any that could complete the training. So finally we gave up on apprentice training

When i sold my business & became a consultant i was asked by one company if I would like to undertake some training for them & I found some of the trainees so useless that I just had to reject 50% of those given to me

For example a degree student who thought 10% of £ 100-00 was £ 3-00. Another who could not work out the length of a centre line of a rectangular garage wall

As an aside I was later asked to sit in on a couple of interviews & they decided that I should start doing their interviews for them . The jobs were for quantity surveyors,- up to managing level, in the salary ranges £40-80K. On 35-40 interviews I found that 90% could not actually read a ruler – not knowing the difference between 90mm & 900mm. No one had ever actually thought of producing a tape to these people -who were supposed to be involved in measurement- at an interview. Over 50% could not measure the door to the office they were being interviewed in.

Mind you  even our MD was stuck on – if a cubic metre of earth weighs 2 tonnes how many lorries of 18 tonne carrying capacity are needed to cart away a million cubic millimetres of earth?            & one feels entitled to stick that into an interview for an £80K job just to get the bloke unsettled to see how he reacts to further questions

The education & training we give these people is so dumbed down to achieve a pass for the "tick sheets" that one wonders if we will ever be able to compete on the world stage

Edited By Sam Longley 1 on 05/08/2016 07:10:44

Edited By Sam Longley 1 on 05/08/2016 07:23:39

Edited By Sam Longley 1 on 05/08/2016 07:33:11

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

This discussion isn't political or offensive and despite heated opinions it isn't abusive.

Anyone uninterested can ignore it, but we won't pull the plug on it.

Neil

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Sam Longley 1 on 05/08/2016 07:07:06:

Mind you even our MD was stuck on – if a cubic metre of earth weighs 2 tonnes how many lorries of 18 tonne carrying capacity are needed to cart away a million cubic millimetres of earth? & one feels entitled to stick that into an interview for an £80K job just to get the bloke unsettled to see how he reacts to further questions

Lol! A brilliant question

Send for Tonka…

Neil

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Last year I was amazed to see a question sheet for tech apprentices that was 10 maths questions like 6+12 +9 on an A4 paper sheet. Apparently this level of test had been found to be necessary. Then the examiner came in with a pile of tablets (computers) with their answers on . That's right tablets supplied not pencils.

[Sam Longley 1Participant @samlongley1]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 05/08/2016 12:48:49:

Posted by Sam Longley 1 on 05/08/2016 07:07:06:

Mind you even our MD was stuck on – if a cubic metre of earth weighs 2 tonnes how many lorries of 18 tonne carrying capacity are needed to cart away a million cubic millimetres of earth? & one feels entitled to stick that into an interview for an £80K job just to get the bloke unsettled to see how he reacts to further questions

Lol! A brilliant question

Send for Tonka…

Neil

Your answer suggest that you might be in the running for an £ 80 K job !!!!

Or is that just a fluke

Edited By Sam Longley 1 on 05/08/2016 13:15:33

[Jon GibbsParticipant @jongibbs59756]

Perhaps he used one of these flukes…

**LINK**

Edited By Jon Gibbs on 05/08/2016 13:25:27

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

The demise of apprenticeships was a combination of removal of subsidy for them in the eighties and quadrupling of university places by converting the tech colleges providing the day release part of (some) apprenticeships into universities. People with the intelligence to do an HNC while getting the training in an apprentice programme instead went to university for 3 years and came out with little interest or capability to do the practical work but were not really up to the intellectual work. So they became mediocre pseudo managers.

[Anna 1Participant @anna1]

Hi, Dave, Sorry for not replying sooner ,( shopping day today.) I agree with all you have to say regarding our miserable recent industrial history however we have now reached the stage where we have few major indigenous engineering companies left because of the reasons you have given ( I can only think of two). Most of those that remain are small companies with employees numbering in tens rather than100s or even thousands, Therefore any rules created, usually apply equally across the board but have, unfortunately, a disproportionate effect on the smaller companies. I have no way of knowing but I wouldn't be suprised if more than ten percent of a businesses time is devoted to this. and this must have an effect on profitability

Whilst the foreign car manufacturers who have set up here are very welcome not least because they supply well paid reliable jobs any profits they make will understandably be repatriated to their home country so this money isn't reinvested in this country.

Kind regards

Anna

[nigel jones 5Participant @nigeljones5]

Let me lighten the tone with a couple of recent apprentice related tales…On instructing a science lab apprentice to record a GC level figure of 1600 she enquired "is that the same as a one with six hundred written behind it", Same person "If a man mated with a dog would it come out half man, half dog, and which would be at which end?". I can honestly say that the person in question is probably the best weve got and is a real asset to the company, but I question what on earth kids do at school these days!

[Jon GibbsParticipant @jongibbs59756]

I've been a member of the IET (and the IEE before that) for 30 odd years and throughout that time I've become bored with their mantra that engineers and scientists are undervalued in the UK – but I'm sorry to say that it is true.

Human nature being what it is has led countless cohorts of able home grown teenage talent to do the sensible thing and seek jobs and employment prospects where there is status, as judged by society at large, and salaries to go with it – and that's everywhere other than engineering, science and practical skills.

Brexit won't change this fact of life one jot unless there's a sea-change in attitudes to science and engineering to go with it.

If there is a British disease it's a lack of appreciation for engineering, science and practical skills.

Jon

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Brexit will not change ANYTHING at grass roots level. Fact. Learn to live with it and get someone to get a gas axe to remove you from that armchair and bloody well get something practical done.

One armchair warrior with a keyboard that has verbal diarrhoea is enough for one forum

[JonParticipant @jon]

Posted by Sam Longley 1 on 04/08/2016 20:09:37:

Posted by speelwerk on 04/08/2016 14:50:12:

as the UK standards have always been much better? Niko.

Do you actually have hard evidence to back that statement— !!!

If you want an example of sub standard Britishness just start with motorbikes & work your way through cars whilst comparing them with Japanese ones then tell me UK standards have always been better

Mostly the Unions that killed it not only in strikes but undermining the workers they represented thinking could get away with anything and they did.
One engineering place used to work every strike taken what ever the reason, directors heads rolled. Shop floor rates were less than staff and ended up after 10 years 600% more.

Ana hit upon something but that's mostly the public sector though still see it in large companies charging public sector rates for local authorities.
Private sector couldnt stand for that as they are accountable or out of a job.

Decisions made the people have spoken right or wrong, next 10 years may be pretty tough. Theres already no UK goods on EU countries shelves dare say will have an impact in next years figures.

My take is we don't produce anything in this country any more think sub 4% manufacturing and have only ourselves to blame for buying in foreign imports the last 30 odd years doing away with UK jobs, passion and know how now lost forever which ever way you look at it.
Nice graph last 60 years **LINK**

CE marking think should keep to stand any chance of selling products where its required and recognised.

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

"My take is we don't produce anything in this country any more"

What planet are you on Jon and why does a balance of payments tell you anything directly about manufacturing.

Just doing a brief web search comes up with this.

Manufacturing contributes £6.7tr to the global economy. Contrary to common belief, UK manufacturing is strong with the UK currently the 11th largest manufacturing nation in the world. Manufacturing makes up 11% of UK GVA and 54% of UK exports and directly employs 2.6 million people.

UK Manufacturing Statistics

Martin

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Jon Gibbs on 05/08/2016 13:24:34:

Perhaps he used one of these flukes…

**LINK**

Sussed!

Neil

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Lucas had an interesting ways of sorting apprentices. Qualifications came first to get an interview. The interview had 3 sections one to check on that. Part of another consisted of having some drawings of linkages on a board and some one standing in front moving one of them about behind a board so that only the resulting action could be seen. Had to state which linkage it was. There were some that were not used. Some that couldn't work. Then came a dis assembled bicycle bell. Not like any I have seen before – put it together. Other similar things. Then came a chat type interview for 20min or so, the only one where some one could knock a person unfairly if they had the inclination. The 2nd test was called mechanical aptitude.

Then came up to 2 years in a dedicated training school and 20mins a day of physical exercise plus an hour or so one evening in a gym. Compulsory. They also had a separate school for drafting skills. That was mostly drawing things from drawing that made visualising the entire object rather difficult. Also jet black lines etc. Some people might get sent on outward bound etc. I spent time once a week in the evening learning technical German. They were going to send me on an exchange with Bosch but I left the school. Also day release and 2 evenings at college. What came next varied. I had 4 completely different jobs in the remaining time all changed by my request. Some just stuck with the first one. I was offered a position in all of them, Post apprenticeship I got put on the personal development plan. Courses of one sort or another every now and again. The last one I went on explained why Lucas was doing and what it eventually did. I'll never forgive them for doing what they did. I "escaped", sold to some one else. Lots didn't. Must admit though that they did try to train some people for fields where they might be able to get a job. Often these were ex apprentices.

It took me many years to realise why they took such care and expense in training people.

John

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[Sam Longley 1Participant @samlongley1]

Posted by Jon on 05/08/2016 14:42:27:

Posted by Sam Longley 1 on 04/08/2016 20:09:37:

Posted by speelwerk on 04/08/2016 14:50:12:

as the UK standards have always been much better? Niko.

Do you actually have hard evidence to back that statement— !!!

If you want an example of sub standard Britishness just start with motorbikes & work your way through cars whilst comparing them with Japanese ones then tell me UK standards have always been better

 

Mostly the Unions that killed it not only in strikes but undermining the workers they represented thinking could get away with anything and they did.
One engineering place used to work every strike taken what ever the reason, directors heads rolled. Shop floor rates were less than staff and ended up after 10 years 600% more.

Ana hit upon something but that's mostly the public sector though still see it in large companies charging public sector rates for local authorities.
Private sector couldnt stand for that as they are accountable or out of a job.

Decisions made the people have spoken right or wrong, next 10 years may be pretty tough. Theres already no UK goods on EU countries shelves dare say will have an impact in next years figures.

My take is we don't produce anything in this country any more think sub 4% manufacturing and have only ourselves to blame for buying in foreign imports the last 30 odd years doing away with UK jobs, passion and know how now lost forever which ever way you look at it.
Nice graph last 60 years **LINK**

CE marking think should keep to stand any chance of selling products where its required and recognised.

 

Not wishing to be disrespectful, but you have not actually answered my question. All you have done is indulge in a bit of a  rant

 

Edited By Sam Longley 1 on 05/08/2016 17:20:40

Edited By Sam Longley 1 on 05/08/2016 18:12:20

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

Posted by Martin Kyte on 05/08/2016 14:50:55:

"My take is we don't produce anything in this country any more"

What planet are you on Jon and why does a balance of payments tell you anything directly about manufacturing.

Just doing a brief web search comes up with this.

Manufacturing contributes £6.7tr to the global economy. Contrary to common belief, UK manufacturing is strong with the UK currently the 11th largest manufacturing nation in the world. Manufacturing makes up 11% of UK GVA and 54% of UK exports and directly employs 2.6 million people.

UK Manufacturing Statistics

Martin

Making and selling things is probably one of the cornerstones of commerce, regardless of where you live, it would be very hard to imagine having an economy of any sort without material goods being turned into all manner of things somewhere. I just don't believe it's possible, perhaps the way they interpret and gather the data is deceiving the truth

perhaps theres alot more indrect manufacture taking place now than traditional workplaces. People have earned enough money to be more footloose than years ago. This could skew the data. Maybe as much as 20% of the economy is involved in makery or assembly of some sort.

Perhaps thats a bit drastic but think about all those important jobs around transporting/shipping, admin, stock rooms, it all adds up, the people themselves aren't making anything but they are involved in a process built around making things. Even the very members and employees involved in MEW are not "producing" (i'm pretty sure it wouldn't register on "their" radar anyway)in the traditional sense but it's got an awful lot to do with it! 

Maybe I can't convey the emotion but i can't help but feel quite impressed by all the effort that goes on in that sense. 

Michael W

Edited By Michael Walters on 05/08/2016 17:54:37

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

John

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[Jon GibbsParticipant @jongibbs59756]

Posted by John Stevenson on 05/08/2016 14:35:17:
Brexit will not change ANYTHING at grass roots level. Fact. Learn to live with it and get someone to get a gas axe to remove you from that armchair and bloody well get something practical done.

One armchair warrior with a keyboard that has verbal diarrhoea is enough for one forum

Ouch! – I missed this because someone must have taken a gas axe to me

Not sure I saw that in the thread about the Moderators powers and duties

It might have been wordy but I was trying to address the points by Anna…

Posted by Anna 1 on 04/08/2016 16:52:14:

We have brexit, which could be a golden opportunity to but Britain on the map again. However, It strikes me unless we get rid of the British disease whereby 10 men with clipboards tell the one poor little worker / business how to do/ not to do the job, and in essence just get in the way and cause unwanted problems, this country is going nowhere. It is no wonder this countrys productivity is so low.

As an aside, a friends son is at university studying electronic engineering. I understand part of the course is a requirement to study "Corporate Speak", I will say no more.

and Bazyle

Posted by Bazyle on 05/08/2016 13:25:25 :

People with the intelligence to do an HNC while getting the training in an apprentice programme instead went to university for 3 years and came out with little interest or capability to do the practical work but were not really up to the intellectual work. So they became mediocre pseudo managers.

Not all our young folks are mediocre and poorly educated and I agree nothing will change post Brexit IMHO.

Jon

Edited By Jon Gibbs on 05/08/2016 20:12:45

[Sam Longley 1Participant @samlongley1]

What would be interesting is to know how much is actually produced in this country by BRITISH owned companies & conversely how much is produced in overseas countries by British owned companies

I make the second point because although we might not be producing it here we might be producing it somewhere. For example: as a yachtsman i know that Hyde sails ( A UK privately owned company) has a very large sail loft in the Philippines.

So it may be that we are a larger manufacturing nation than we know, but we do not actually do it here. Alternatively it may be much worse than the 11th largest in the world actually suggests because we do not own the companies that are producing the goods in the UK. We only supply some labour

In other words- How much is produced by British companies globally & how does that compare on the world stage

Edited By Sam Longley 1 on 05/08/2016 20:12:02

[Sam Longley 1Participant @samlongley1]

Posted by Jon Gibbs on 05/08/2016 20:09:45:

Not all our young folks are mediocre and poorly educated and I agree nothing will change post Brexit IMHO.

It could if Brexit created a mindset that we needed to become a manufacturing nation again with a will to produce goods for export &, therefore, need the skill sets to meet that demand. Then govt attitude & that of the educational establishments may change & indoctrinate a different ideal into the newer generations.

However, at the risk of being extremely controversial,( with no intention to racism) if one looks at some of the you tube videos re the the change of our society likely within the next 20 years due to the change in birth rates attributable to different sectors in our society that may not be the case & the whole intention of Brexit may be wasted.

[Author]

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