CE mark

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Given the minimal impact of the huge 'red tape challenge' initiative together with the potential impact on trade I doubt that we will see any noticeable changes whatsoever.

Why have UK standards that are not compliant with our trading partner's? That just means you can only sell in teh UK unless you invest in twice as much certification.

The impact of 'Brexit' on our hobby and trade/engineering in general is a valid topic for discussion as the referendum is now done and dusted, but please keep away from wider polly-ticks

Neil

[Brian OldfordParticipant @brianoldford70365]

Given that it will take several years for the legal boffins to untangle our laws from that of the EU many of us may never have to worry about any likely changes as we'll be pushing up daisies by the time they are implemented.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

As the pound lost 10% of it's value overnight this might be a very good time to buy some new kit and spares. Imports will be more expensive until the pound recovers. I hope that doesn't take too long.

[Roderick JenkinsParticipant @roderickjenkins93242]

Posted by Simon Collier 1 on 24/06/2016 10:32:47:

I read my July EIM today. There was a very interesting add about why model engineers should vote to leave. It concentrated on the EU rules for boilers and the switch to more expensive, poorer performing 55% silver solder. I was surprised and delighted to see it. I doubt Neil would have allowed it in MEW.

Can anybody make an authoritative comment on " there is a risk of a new directive ordering that non CE marked legacy pressure vessels are to be banned. That is your loco boiler…" which was mentioned in the above advert. 'Cos if it is true it will be implemented long before the UK negotiates its exit.

Rod

[Brian GParticipant @briang]

To export to the rest of Europe, all UK businesses will still have to comply with EU standards, all Brexit will do is remove Britain's representation in the setting of those standards. Even that won't necessarily save the country money, as instead of paying for expert representation we will be paying parliamentary draftsmen to copy EU legislation into British law.

Personally, I would think that having a second set of lower quality or safety standards for UK products which couldn't then be exported, would finish off what is left of the reputation and profitability of British manufacturing.

Brian

[Jon GibbsParticipant @jongibbs59756]

Standards are a red herring here IMHO.

Once we leave the EU, obviously we can set lower standards for our own imports and homegrown products if we so desire, and even expand BSI again with the money we're saving from our EU dues, but our manufacturers will still need to meet whatever standards are needed in the countries they export to.

I think that if we're smart we ought to continue to abide by Euro Norms so that imports to our market remain as similar to products intended for the European market – certainly no tougher otherwise we can look forward to much more expensive goods. It goes without saying that we need to continue to participate as much as we can in CENELEC, CEN, ETSI, ITU, IEC and ISO – the standards making bodies.

My fear is that, contrary to what Gove et al said prior to the vote, the EU will seek to dissuade further "exiters" by penalizing the UK through trade tarrifs – it seems only natural IMHO for them to try to stop the rot.

Jon

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Roderick Jenkins on 24/06/2016 15:26:44:

Posted by Simon Collier 1 on 24/06/2016 10:32:47:

I read my July EIM today. There was a very interesting add about why model engineers should vote to leave. It concentrated on the EU rules for boilers and the switch to more expensive, poorer performing 55% silver solder. I was surprised and delighted to see it. I doubt Neil would have allowed it in MEW.

Can anybody make an authoritative comment on " there is a risk of a new directive ordering that non CE marked legacy pressure vessels are to be banned. That is your loco boiler…" which was mentioned in the above advert. 'Cos if it is true it will be implemented long before the UK negotiates its exit.

Rod

"there is a risk" – those are weasel words! there is a risk of a meteorite hitting your club track, but I don't suggest that makes it worth taking out asteroid insurance. Strange how no-one else seems to have heard of this 'risk'?

Please someone PM me the details of the advertiser and I will ask them to write a short note detailing this proposed new directive so I can publish the details in MEW.

Neil

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

Posted by mechman48 on 24/06/2016 13:23:11:

We used to have the BS Kite mark; this ensured that all items were all tested to the highest BS compliance requirements before it was usurped by the CE logo, it was more than good enough then so why not return to the same standards, & put our Kite mark back on items.

George.

so what relevance would a Kite mark have to someone from outside the UK? And why would it be cheaper to apply a kite mark showing compliance with all relevant standards than to apply a CE mark?

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

Why on eartn is EIM printing political stuff? Most irresponsible. And as for legacy boilers being banned, that would be every preserved loco in Europe, and many power stations, including a lot of the French nuclear fleet. I can really see that happening.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by mechman48 on 24/06/2016 13:23:11:

We used to have the BS Kite mark; this ensured that all items were all tested to the highest BS compliance requirements before it was usurped by the CE logo, it was more than good enough then so why not return to the same standards, & put our Kite mark back on items.

.

Basically … Because it is the Customer, not the Supplier, that dictates the 'Acceptance Standard'.

EU Customers will continue to expect the CE marking.

MichaelG.

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

The whole idea of the EU is to establish a trading block that will impose tariffs on the things that come from outside of it. So when it happens no one can say it wasn't expected or that they are dissuading others from doing the same.

As far as the hobby goes there are one or two things that currently I can buy without paying UK VAT and import duties but fortunately there plenty of time to get them. Or maybe there isn't.

One of my private concerns is if a whole system of roads in Wales doesn't get finished.

John

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[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by duncan webster on 24/06/2016 16:27:45:

Why on eartn is EIM printing political stuff? Most irresponsible.

….

 

Not just EIM it seems. Which recent ME article contains the phrases:

"It must be admitted however that the vast amount of money we are spending on wind turbines does somewhat reduce fossil fuel use when they are working. Sadly, the only 'wind of change' likely to blow through this industry is the wind produced by the verbal output of delegates at Global Warming Conferences."

"The psychology of solar panel owners is interesting. I once told a friend that, with his solar power output, it would take thirty years to repay the debt. He then said that he really didn't mind, because it made him feel so much better."

"British Governments have been so convinced that carbon dioxide emissions were damaging the world's climate and that they agreed to unrealistic emission targets."

"So much for the ever closer union in Europe"

"May I make a plea that we seriously think about the advantages – and not only the disadvantages – of the changes that may be encountered"

It might be me being grumpy again, but I distrust anything that mixes good facts with un-evidenced opinion. All too often it turns out to be propaganda!

Cheers,

Dave

 

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 24/06/2016 17:13:12

[Phil WhitleyParticipant @philwhitley94135]

Posted by not done it yet on 24/06/2016 12:54:55:

The big joke is often that CE marks on chinese products simply stand for 'China Export' and nothing to do with european safety standards. Sure, there are good Chinese products, but there are also some really dodgy items which still need to be weeded out on arrival for sale.

The fact that the (genuine) EC marked products are up to, and often beyond, the old BSI kitemak system is to be lauded.

Ah, if only it were a big joke. Careful examination will reveal two very similar CE marks, one the genuine article, and the other, very slightly different, known as the China Export mark. To all intents and purposes, these marks are identical, and the EU has been swamped for years with good, bad, ugly and counterfeit goods, all CE marked There are even well known British electrical fittings that have been copied and CE marked right down to the two letter name (hint hint). Long story short, the CE mark on most things is worthless, and only claims that you have adhered to a set of paper standards, unlike the old BSI, nothing is actually tested.

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Nothing tested ? I'm always amazed about the amount of miss information about. This is one of several companies that will test items for compliance.

**LINK**

On many things it's best to add TUV approval as well.

John

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[MWParticipant @mw27036]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 24/06/2016 16:34:07:

Posted by mechman48 on 24/06/2016 13:23:11:

We used to have the BS Kite mark; this ensured that all items were all tested to the highest BS compliance requirements before it was usurped by the CE logo, it was more than good enough then so why not return to the same standards, & put our Kite mark back on items.

.

Basically … Because it is the Customer, not the Supplier, that dictates the 'Acceptance Standard'.

EU Customers will continue to expect the CE marking.

MichaelG.

Alot of it is that but i wouldn't call it a customer dictatorship, it's a collaborative process between all areas of activity whether that's legal, enviromental or even agreements made between suppliers.

The last time i checked we are still using both the kite mark and CE.

As i wrote earlier, the B.S.I were among the first to actually set and inspect places of manufacture to adhered standards and definitely under appreciated in terms of the scientific merit it brought to the business of making. It still exists today, though mainly to provide updates to the older standards.

Michael W  

Edited By Michael Walters on 25/06/2016 01:48:44

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Michael Walters on 25/06/2016 01:39:31:

Basically … Because it is the Customer, not the Supplier, that dictates the 'Acceptance Standard'.

EU Customers will continue to expect the CE marking.

MichaelG.

Alot of it is that but i wouldn't call it a customer dictatorship …

.

Nor would I …

If you need to avoid political overtones: Please feel free to replace the word 'dictates' with 'prescribes' or 'specifies' or 'selects'.

All I meant was that if the EU requires its member states to comply with the CE marking scheme, then it is expedient for an EU customer to purchase products carrying the [legitimate] CE mark. The [prohibitively expensive] alternative would be for the customer to get the product tested and certificated.

Note: I was thinking in terms of 'Business to Business' deals, with a negotiated contract.

MichaelG.

.

Edit: quite a good summary on Wikipedia

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 25/06/2016 08:14:59

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

For info. … Here is the bsi brochure about CE

**LINK**

MichaelG.

.

Footnote, for pedants: My use of 'bsi' is deliberate … See the ee cummings inspired logo.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 25/06/2016 08:43:08

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

The "law" has always dictated a number of requirements placed on various products Michael. I'd hazard a guess that the vast majority of directives issued by the EU fall in this area. There has been ever increasing standards / requirements being placed on things for a very long time. Some might say for instance in the automotive area that it all got going when type approval was the buzz word which caused manufactures to put a lot more thought into the vehicles they manufactured. In fact it took a lot of designs and cars of the road. Much of this originated in the USA also early emissions work. These days I suspect that the EU is a major driving force. Some might say there are way too many of them. Only problem is that many are introduced with good reason All in fact really if risk is close to being eliminated.

Quality standards are an entirely different area.

John

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[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Not directly related to CE marking but I thought this might happen

**LINK**

John

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[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Ajohnw on 25/06/2016 17:03:50:

Not directly related to CE marking but I thought this might happen

**LINK**

.

Astonishing, John

I've just checked, and it's standing at 2,226,765 signatures … By morning, there will probably be more than 3 million people who think they can change the rules retrospectively.

MichaelG.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 25/06/2016 20:25:01

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Pah !! … I found him, and the Express had already beaten me to it.

**LINK**

MichaelG.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 25/06/2016 21:15:39

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Ajohnw on 25/06/2016 17:03:50:

Not directly related to CE marking but I thought this might happen

**LINK**

John

Without being judgemental… horse – stable door.

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

It was started before the referendum Michael. Not sure but I think that something along these lines may have been part of the Scottish one. I'd guess that if more people knew about it it really will reach a massive number but suspect it will just get closed.

If your interested in flat news it's interesting to have a nose around Reuters UK news pages. I've not had the need to do that for a long long time.

One CE marks etc there is an EU page that explains what all of the various things they put out are – Regulations, Directives and etc and most of each category can be found on the wiki.

The different "things" are here.

http://europa.eu/eu-law/decision-making/legal-acts/index_en.htm

In English at the moment.

John

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Edited By Ajohnw on 25/06/2016 21:29:49

Edited By Ajohnw on 25/06/2016 21:30:39

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Ajohnw on 25/06/2016 21:26:59:

It was started before the referendum Michael.

.

Yes, John … That much is obvious from the end date.

It's the crass stupidity of so many people signing it now that I was trying to highlight.

MichaelG.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 25/06/2016 21:38:15

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

There is a lot of ill feeling about both ways Michael so people sign it and will probably continue to sign it. Actually if people knew about it soon enough I would suspect it would get a lot of votes. Probably cica 50% of the turn out.

John

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