Can we have a really clear distinction between Silver Soldering and Brazing

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Clive India on 21/01/2020 13:08:25:

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 21/01/2020 12:30:19:

So … The answer to the question posed by Chris is NO. MichaelG.

I agree – but it was good to watch the willie-waving!

Well, I disagree. Reading the submissions I see a good consensus about the main differences between soldering and brazing, with examples, and contributions usefully explaining how and why the terminology is a bit wobbly. I didn't spot any competition between answers, let alone willy waving.

Is this a theory vs practical thing? Some technicians lose interest as soon as an answer allows them to get results, even if it's inaccurate. After that, I suppose any extra information might be considered boastful. Fair enough, but engineering progress depends on building understanding, not just repeating old tricks, however effective they are! And over-simplifying is dodgy on a forum like this because members come from so many different fields. In this thread for example we learn the Silver Solder used in electronics is completely different from the Silver Solder used in Brazing.

Dave

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

They are both exactly the same technique just using different fillers and in consequence different temperatures.

Martin

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 21/01/2020 14:44:31:

Posted by Clive India on 21/01/2020 13:08:25:

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 21/01/2020 12:30:19:

So … The answer to the question posed by Chris is NO. MichaelG.

I agree – but it was good to watch the willie-waving!

Well, I disagree. Reading the submissions I see a good consensus about the main differences between soldering and brazing, […]

.

Dave … The question wasn’t about the difference between soldering and brazing; it was about the distinction [if any] between ‘silver soldering’ and ‘brazing’.

Years ago it was simple; because the emphasis was on the composition of the filler/solder …
Things have changed, and the emphasis is now on temperature [and the term ‘silver soldering’ seems to have been deprecated]

Personally, I find this counter-intuitive; because if I solder something using silver alloys [and do not use a brazier for heating] I can see no logic in calling this brazing. … But those ‘in power’ have decided differently, and so be it.

MichaelG.

[Keith HaleParticipant @keithhale68713]

Hi folks

Words fail.

There's an expression involving a horse and water but I can't recall it at the moment.

Perhaps I should just keep my thoughts to myself. Is that the bugler playing "The Last Post"?

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

. . . . like you can take a horse to water but a pencil must be lead.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

I put my effort into making sound joints rather than counting angels on pins.

Neil

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 21/01/2020 16:16:04:

I put my effort into making sound joints rather than counting angels on pins.

Neil

.

Very noble of you, Neil … but have you actually tried to answer the question that Chris asked us ?

… My recent answer was an explicit NO

MichaelG.

 

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 21/01/2020 17:05:01

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

and do not use a brazier for heating

Who knows? Perhaps they found they had to put the item in a brazier to get to a suitable temperature. Or perhaps ‘brazing’ is a term introduced instead of ‘brassing’. One thing is evident – (manual) soft soldering often entails the use of a soldering iron. Perhaps ‘brassing’ did, too, when it was first adopted for connecting together brass items. Anybody know?

Martin summed it up quite well, I thought.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by CuP Alloys 1 on 21/01/2020 16:04:09:

Hi folks

Words fail.

There's an expression involving a horse and water but I can't recall it at the moment.

Perhaps I should just keep my thoughts to myself. Is that the bugler playing "The Last Post"?

Perhaps it's me, but I still don't get what's so offensive about this thread? A tendency to wander around subjects and develop ideas isn't exactly unusual on this Forum. No-one is counting angels on pins.

I normally read Cup Alloys posts with considerable interest but today's contribution has zero value. It doesn't address the question or explain what's wrong with the answers. Worse, the Horse and Water comment suggests the writer has a low opinion of forum intelligence: is that the official view of Cup Alloys the business, or just an individual's unfortunate choice of words? Hard to accept the latter given it's followed by 'The Last Post' gibe.

Dave

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 21/01/2020 15:24:46:

[…]

I can see no logic in calling this brazing. … But those ‘in power’ have decided differently, and so be it.

.

For those still in possession of some curiosity …

Those ‘in power’ would appear to be the American Welding Society, whose ‘ruling’ is given here:

**LINK**

https://www.esabna.com/euweb/oxy_handbook/589oxy19_1.htm

MichaelG.

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 21/01/2020 10:28:23:

The most common silver solder melting point divisions are:

• IT: The highest melting temperature, used on fine silver when enameling (melting point: 1490 degrees Fahrenheit)
• Hard: Used for bezels and as a first step when doing multiple soldering (melting point: 1425 degrees Fahrenheit)
• Medium: Used mostly when only one or two steps will be done (melting point: 1390 degrees Fahrenheit)
• Easy: Used as a final solder or when soldering on findings (melting point: 1325 degrees F)
• Extra Easy: Used primarily for repairs and is distinctly yellow in color- (melting point: 1270 degrees Fahrenheit)

[/quote]

.

For jewellery fabrication I use all of those except the enamelling solder.

The good thing that many newcomers to jewellery soldering don't realise is that solder can be quite forgiving, and if you're careful and have an appropriate torch/burner you can do multiple successive solder joints even when very close together using a single "hardness" of solder.

For example the cluster and collet settings shown in the images were made using twenty-four and ten successive solder joints respectively, and hard solder was used in all cases. The only time I switched to easy solder was to solder the completed collet into the fabricated ring shank.

Someone recently asked somewhere why solders come in different thicknesses. I don't know whether this has been answered yet, but my reply would be to say that apart from the obvious fact that different sized workpieces need solder fillets in proportion to their size, and a choice of solder thickness makes achieving this more convenient, there is also the identification issue: fortunately extra easy, easy, medium and hard all have their own specific dimensions, so unless you are careless and pick up the wrong solder you never ruin a fabricated collet, for example, by inadvertently creating it with easy and then trying to join it to your shank with hard. I've said solder can be forgiving, but it's not that forgiving.

 

Edited By Bill Phinn on 21/01/2020 18:09:19

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 21/01/2020 17:02:56:

Very noble of you, Neil … but have you actually tried to answer the question that Chris asked us ?

… My recent answer was an explicit NO

MichaelG.

Swiftly followed by a post attempting to demolish your own position, I thought

The whole argument is built on ignorance of the actual etymology of 'braze/'brazing' which has nothing to do with brass, but comes from an old French word for (wait for it) – soldering, that itself evolved from words relating to exposure to heat. So it's closer to braising steak than brass.

The word 'brass' itself' is an English-only word that may have it's origins by different routes, perhaps Swedish brasa (fire) so possibly shared roots are the reason for the similarity.

Neil

[StueeeeParticipant @stueeee]

Posted by Dave Wootton on 21/01/2020 07:59:58:

Just to add to the confusion where I served my time brazing was referred to as bronze welding!, was this a regional thing or is there a difference between bronze welding and brazing?

One of the differences is that so-called Bronze Welding traditionally uses a rod with 9-10% of Nickel in it. I use Sifbronze No. 3 for this process. As well as motorcycle and bicycle frames, this process is the traditional jointing method on racing car spaceframes. My space framed Avatar car is largely put together with Nickel Bronze.

As another poster noted earlier, Bronze Welding lays a bead around a joint. The process involves heating the joint with an OA torch with a big slightly carburising flame, laying a blob of Nickel Bronze, moving the torch slightly to 'sweat' the existing blob forward at the root and then depositing another blob -rinse and repeat; the key thing is not to overheat the joint and cause the bronze to run. There's a video of an expert piece of work here.

[url]**LINK**[/url]

BTW, not all brazing rods contain Zinc. For TIG brazing, I use Sifbronze No. 8 which is Zinc free. using any Zinc bearing rods with TIG contaminate the electrode with nasty white gunk.

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

Posted by Bill Phinn on 21/01/2020 18:01:25:

different sized workpieces need solder fillets in proportion to their size

This is misleadingly put. What I should have said is different sized workpieces need different amounts of solder to achieve adequate penetration of the joint, and having a choice of solder thickness makes achieving this more convenient.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 21/01/2020 19:21:50:

[…]

The whole argument is built on ignorance of the actual etymology of 'braze/'brazing' which has nothing to do with brass, but comes from an old French word for (wait for it) – soldering, that itself evolved from words relating to exposure to heat. So it's closer to braising steak than brass.

The word 'brass' itself' is an English-only word that may have it's origins by different routes, perhaps Swedish brasa (fire) so possibly shared roots are the reason for the similarity.

Neil

.

I stand corrected [and thus informed] … except for the inconvenient point that if brazing means soldering; where does the high temperature distinction in the AWS definition come from ?

MichaelG.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 21/01/2020 21:02:12

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 21/01/2020 19:21:50:

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 21/01/2020 17:02:56:

 

Very noble of you, Neil … but have you actually tried to answer the question that Chris asked us ?

… My recent answer was an explicit NO

MichaelG.

Swiftly followed by a post attempting to demolish your own position, I thought

 

.

Sorry, Neil … I really can’t see that.

I had answered Chris’s question … and then expressed a personal opinion, with the clear acknowledgement that it was outwith current terminology.

The two posts are entirely consistent.

MichaelG.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 21/01/2020 21:17:42

[Anonymous]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 21/01/2020 19:21:50:

The whole argument is built on ignorance of the actual etymology of 'braze/'brazing' which has nothing to do with brass, but comes from an old French word for (wait for it) – soldering,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

According to my dictionary braze is from the old French word for burn. I'm not a fan of burnt steak!

Andrew

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Looks like Braze might be quite a versatile word: **LINK**

http://www.weldinghistory.org/whfolder/common/etymology-braze.html

MichaelG.

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, I think it's a shop floor definition thing that spread throughout industry, in that, when you were instructed to braze something up, you knew that you had to use brass filler wires and if it was to be silver soldered, you would choose a wire that you considered right for the job in hand or one that you were instructed to use. Either way you would understand the nature of the actual process required and do the correct preparation and use the correct flux and heating etc.

Regards Nick.

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

It's amazing how technology has moved on. We are talking about soldering & brazing to stick metal parts together. In the car industry they now stick (bond) car chassis to body components using glue. Stronger than welding. I have a fairly new car that is pretty much glued together. The whole body & chassis are made from alloy. Putting out 575 hp through the wheels & it's glued together. Forgot it has lots of plastic too. Not like my 1st Morris minor traveller. R.I.P.

[nigel jones 5Participant @nigeljones5]

Indeed Steviegtr, eventually this technonogy will filter down to home use. Not sure how strong the glue will be in 100 years though

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, I used glue back in 1987 or there about, to fix four stainless steel patches on the wings of an Avenger to get it through the MOT, although the wings were not in there own right subject to any structural issues, but rusty jagged holes in a position where they would cause additional injury to persons if they were struck by ones car, are.

The photo above shows one of the patches. When I took it for the MOT, the examiner was intrigued by my simple solution to the problem and passed it OK. The next year he told me that Vauxhall were gluing the wings on their new builds.

Maybe this could be low temperature brazing, as there is a small temperature rise during the curing of the glue I used.

Regards Nick.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Wow. It still goes on. So I guess Michael G's answer of "No" is definitive.

Here is what the industry experts at CupAlloy say on their site:

"The brazing process, of which silver soldering is a part, has been used successfully for thousands of years to produce strong leaktight, ductile joints …

…One definition in British Standards defines brazing as : "a process of joining generally applied to metals in which, during or after heating, molten filler is drawn into or retained in the space between closely adjacent surfaces of the parts to be joined, by capillary attraction"

International Convention declares that brazed joints are made above the melting point of aluminium 610 degC. Below that temperature you are soldering. A brazed joint is identified by the temperature of the filer metal, not by the composition of the rod in the hand."

CupAlloy's full screed and lots of other interesting info on the topic is here **LINK**

But the above definition is, as discussed earlier, contrary to what many who did a machining or toolmaking apprenticeship in the days of yore was told on the shop floor, where "brazing" referred to the use of brass rod and "silver soldering" to the use of a silver-bearing wire filler.

Not sure how, when, where or why the discrepancy over the years.  Was it the British, ISO, or SAE Standards organisations getting in on the act and coming up with a standard definition in later years?

 

 

Edited By Hopper on 22/01/2020 09:04:53

[JourneymanParticipant @journeyman]

Well I wrote a bit about soldering, brazing and welding for my website. Not sure that it adds anything much to the discussion but there are pictures and links!

John

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Hopper on 22/01/2020 08:58:21:

Wow. It still goes on. So I guess Michael G's answer of "No" is definitive.

[…]

International Convention declares that brazed joints are made above the melting point of aluminium 610 degC. Below that temperature you are soldering. A brazed joint is identified by the temperature of the filer metal, not by the composition of the rod in the hand."

[…]

But the above definition is, as discussed earlier, contrary to what many who did a machining or toolmaking apprenticeship in the days of yore was told on the shop floor, where "brazing" referred to the use of brass rod and "silver soldering" to the use of a silver-bearing wire filler.

Not sure how, when, where or why the discrepancy over the years. Was it the British, ISO, or SAE Standards organisations getting in on the act and coming up with a standard definition in later years?

.

Thanks for the clear statements, Hopper

It appears that the ‘decree’ came from the American Welding Society [please see my link, posted yesterday], and that it has subsequently been adopted worldwide.

The fact that I personally find the definition counter-intuitive is of no consequence.

MichaelG.

.

P.S.

A fuller answer to the opening question would be :

No … because what was previously known as ‘Silver Soldering’ is now defined as Brazing.

[Author]

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