Buying a Lathe Advice

[BowberParticipant @bowber]

Don't be led down the HP path, my old Harrison was fitted with a 2HP single phase motor and could take 3mm + cuts no problem and do it all day, and I did when making some big parts. But you don't need anything like that for bike parts.

If your looking at Toolco's 1130V (the same as the Warco 280V but bigger spindle) it is fitted with a 1.5kw motor, also these motors have a separate fan so they are still fully cooled while running slowly, I'd have no hesitation doing any part in my 280V be it bike related or just general turning, you might have to take a bit longer to do the job but it'll still do it.

If I was looking for a lathe again and having had an old British industrial lathe and now a new Chinese lathe I'd be going for the new Chinese lathe again unless I found that holy Grail of a little used Boxford/Harrison/Colchester with full tooling 2 miles down the road going for a song. There is no way the Warco is as good as a new industrial lathe but it was a 1/4 the price and still at the limit of what I could afford.

At the end of the day it's all about what's available. New lathe delivered with warranty and spares backup or spend weeks looking through classifieds/Ebay etc and going to check them out and then when you've finally found the right machine moving the 3/4 tonne machine into your workshop. I think you can guess which way I'd prefer

By the way I'm/was a time served engineer and I've had my own workshop at home since I moved out from my parents and even then I used my dads lathes since I was a kid, I've been using lathes and other machinery for 35+ years so I've got a reasonable understanding of the difference between hobby and industrial use. I've also built, maintained and raced bikes all my life.

Steve

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Maybe another warning in used 3 phase machines would be worth mentioning. Lathes generally have all sorts of interlocks fitted on them. When driven via an inverter these usually have to be junked as nothing should be between the inverter and the motor. Some people have "fun" sorting this out. Often for home use people make no use of them at all other than a prominent stop button added by themselves. Business type people who might get health and safety visits do not have such a simple life.

Noticing metric / imperial mention. Depends what the bikes you wish to work on use. If metric maybe a metric lathe would be a decent idea. Metric Boxfords should come with a type of screw cutting indicator that allows most pitches to be cut without reversing the lathe etc. Not sure what the Chinese metric lathes have on them. Metric on imperially lathes need conversion gears. People usually insist on having a 100 / 127 compound gear to do this with and the lathes have to be reversed but close approximations are generally more than adequate. Lots of screw cutting in practice is done with taps and dies as it's quicker anyway.

John

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[Carl Wilson 4Participant @carlwilson4]

Just my two'pennorth…probably better looking for a good quality second hand British machine than a Chinese new one. A Harrison M250 would probably be a good bet for you. I have got one and they are tidy, capable machines. There are plenty of good examples of them about.

I work in engineering and onboard a ship. This place is the ultimate testing ground for tools of all types. In one workshop here there is a Warco lathe. It is 5 years old and completely knackered to the extent that bits fall off it when you want to use it. Meanwhile, the Harrison M series machine in another workshop we have is the same age as the vessel (close to 30 years) and is an absolute joy to use.

Buy the best and cry once.

Carl.

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Posted by Jamie Jones on 06/07/2015 10:51:33:As others have suggested I will need a 38mm spindle bore…

But it would seem that the motors in the lathes I have been looking at might be underpowered at 1hp… Told that I would really need a 3hp machine for working on bike parts… Told to have a look for a Myford or Colchester or Harrison…

Anyone know which models would fit the bill?

I think you have been given some conflicting advise there. The Myford has a spindle bore of just 15 mm and the recommended motor size is 1/2 hp three phase or 3/4 hp two phase.

You need to consider carefully what you will be doing on your lathe. What might you want to turn that will have to go through the spindle and be 38 mm diameter? I don't know much about motor bikes but I have restored a number of vintage cars and the times that my 19 mm spindle bore has been a limiting factor were few and far between. Centre height was more often a problem.

As for needing 3 hp it again depends on what you are doing. Is it a business where time is money or is it a hobby? More power enables you to go faster but for one offs the set-up time is often greater than the turning time. In any case, the WM250 V you were looking at is about 1.5 hp and the bigger brother the 280 V is 2 hp so both somewhere between the Myford and the Colchester/Harrison.

Hope that helps a bit.

Russell.

[Jamie JonesParticipant @jamiejones42723]

Hmmm I have single phase to the workshop already for the welder….. If I remember correctly I don't think I can get three phase so that could rule out any three phase machines…

….

Posted by Russell Eberhardt on 06/07/2015 14:36:10:

Posted by Jamie Jones on 06/07/2015 10:51:33:As others have suggested I will need a 38mm spindle bore…

.

As for needing 3 hp it again depends on what you are doing. Is it a business where time is money or is it a hobby? More power enables you to go faster but for one offs the set-up time is often greater than the turning time. In any case, the WM250 V you were looking at is about 1.5 hp and the bigger brother the 280 V is 2 hp so both somewhere between the Myford and the Colchester/Harrison.

Hope that helps a bit.

Russell

The reality is that at this stage it is not a business…. But once I have made bits for my motorcycle it would be nice to sell some of it on to recover my own costs at least, anything more than that is small change on top… But I don't want to spend three house making a £14 part as that is not time efficant and you would have to ask why you are doing it in the first place… Imho

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

I feel I have to say something about buying something like a used Harrison. The lathe on the ship might have been brand new or scarcely used when it was fitted. I doubt if a lathe on a ship is used for long periods daily either. It's probably well maintained as well. Reminds me of a conversation directly with Myford who couldn't understand why there are so many of their really well worn machines about as they have them 30 odd years old in use and still fine. They know how badly they can wear as they get some back for reconditioning.

Basically the older a traditional make of lathe is the more likely it is that it's seen extensive use at some point in it's life and one persons view of a lathe in working order may not match others. Take true toolrooms for instance. They have grinders of all sorts about and a lot of work finishes up being hardened and ground so taper and finish on work that comes of the lathe doesn't really matter. It will at some point for some sorts of jobs so out goes the lathe and it's replaced.

Past something like the 50's or 60's I don't think which main make matters that much. There are some rolls royce brands but even a rolls royce wont run well with loose big ends, worn out steering gear and a burnt out valve or two. One of the worst catches with 2nd hand machines is makes like Schaublin. One that still deserves the name is likely to cost a lot of money also even if it doesn't any more. DSG is another also Lang but both of those are likely to be a lot bigger than the Schaublin and ideally need a machine shop floor. A bit thicker than a typical garage.

I'm time served too.

i feel some could buy a used main brand and finish up with something worse than a lower end Chines lathe – very easily if they can't test it properly before they buy. But an excellent example of one of the main makes is a better option if available and people are ;prepared to pay the price.. Sadly some dealers will be perfectly happy to sell machines which are past it really. On the other hand how bad a machine can be before it's a problem depends on what is going to be done with it.

John

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[BowberParticipant @bowber]

Posted by Jamie Jones on 06/07/2015 15:47:52:

But I don't want to spend three house making a £14 part as that is not time efficant and you would have to ask why you are doing it in the first place… Imho

You'll find yourself spending far more than 3 hours making parts that were cheap when available, I've spent days making parts that if available probably cost less than the materials I end up using never mind the time.

Steve

Edited By Bowber on 06/07/2015 16:39:07

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by Jamie Jones on 06/07/2015 11:20:03:

Both the bikes I have are modern.. Not sure what projects I will have in the future.. (I am a metric person, but guess I might have to learn imperial mind sets)

Well, if you have a modern bike you are unlikely to ever have any projects. A typical Honda these days will give you 200,000 miles without much more than routine servicing. Then you buy a complete engine out of a low-mileage crashed bike at the wreckers, stuff it in your bike and carry on for another 200,000 miles.

Of course if your "modern" bike is a Harley or Royal Oilfield the story may be a little different. Some special tooling and small parts may be needed along the way.

If you are a metric "modern" person, then a metric Chinese lathe might be your best option.

I can't imagine anything on a motorcycle that would require a lathe with more than 1hp motor. Even my old 1937 banger of a lathe will take a .100" (2.5mm) cut with a 3/4hp motor.

[Jamie JonesParticipant @jamiejones42723]

On projects I am already creating a bullet fairing for a Thruxton which is bespoke including all the brackets… I also have other ideas that I would like to do as well….

[Carl Wilson 4Participant @carlwilson4]

With regard to the lathes on my ship – yes, the Harrison was likely put in when she was built or at the very least converted which would be 25 years ago. The Warco is about 5 years old. So if the Warco was well maintained then why has it only lasted 5 years?

Lathes might be well maintained on a cruise liner or container ship where there is nothing to do for 3 months. I'm on an offshore construction vessel where solutions are required last week. The lathes get no maintenance whatsoever because nobody has any time to do any and no department wants to claim responsibility. So they get a good going over every time I use them, which is not that often. They are more likely to be used by someone who sees them in the same light as a black and decker hand drill. The Harrison has withstood 30 years of abuse and is still a lovely machine to use. The Warco has stood 5. It is bloody awful.

Of course, as with any purchase it is caveat emptor, but I would still say a second hand UK made machine is a better investment than a Chinese new one. If it is 3 phase then a VFD can be had these days for reasonably modest outlay.

[John CoatesParticipant @johncoates48577]

Posted by Hopper on 07/07/2015 09:36:40:

Well, if you have a modern bike you are unlikely to ever have any projects. A typical Honda these days will give you 200,000 miles without much more than routine servicing. Then you buy a complete engine out of a low-mileage crashed bike at the wreckers, stuff it in your bike and carry on for another 200,000 miles.

Of course if your "modern" bike is a Harley or Royal Oilfield the story may be a little different. Some special tooling and small parts may be needed along the way.

If you are a metric "modern" person, then a metric Chinese lathe might be your best option.

I can't imagine anything on a motorcycle that would require a lathe with more than 1hp motor. Even my old 1937 banger of a lathe will take a .100" (2.5mm) cut with a 3/4hp motor.

Well on my 1999 Kawasaki ZX7R I want to swap the whole front end (yokes, forks, brakes) for a 2008 ZZR1400 so that's a new spindle and brake caliper spacers there. And the swingarm is going to be from a 2006 ZX10R so that's more spacers. And generally tinkering to move things about. Which is why I bought a 1947 Barker (my choice, not a recommendation, I just liked what I read about them and wanted to preserve an old unique British lathe)

John

[BowberParticipant @bowber]

Posted by Carl Wilson 4 on 07/07/2015 12:16:20:

The Harrison has withstood 30 years of abuse and is still a lovely machine to use. The Warco has stood 5. It is bloody awful.

That's the problem with ex industrial lathes, your buying an old abused lathe and while some might be still accurate they usually aren't, headstock bearings that have been run in the same oil for the last 20 years, bed wear in the most used area and cross slide and compound slide wear along with their lead screws being worn out all add up to a machine that the new owner may end up spending more time correcting rather than using. Plus the prices of these used machines is not cheap, I've not seen a used M300 or M250 for less than £2k on ebay these days.

My friend runs a machine shop and he is in the process of renovating some of their lathes, some of the prices he's paying for Colchester parts is mad, £140+ for a compound lead screw, more for new taper gibs and the price of some of the bearings is eye watering and he still has a reasonably worn lathe at the end of it.

There is no doubt they are a much better machine than a hobby Chinese lathe but you pay for it.

Steve

[Carl Wilson 4Participant @carlwilson4]

Your argument proves, rather than disproves, my point. After 30 years of unsympathetic handling the machine I referred to doesn't have worn bearings and is still in good condition, albeit dirty.

[Bob Brown 1Participant @bobbrown1]

I think with any used machine there are going to be ones that have been well used and also ones that have little use, it's just a case of waiting for the right machine to come up. To me it's a bit like buying a used car, there are indications as to the amount of miles the car has done and indicators to damage IF you know what you are looking for, same with machine tools, just painting a used machine does nothing for me in fact just makes me suspect as to its condition.

During my time at sea most of the lathes on ships had been well used and I do not think they were new when the ship was built rather one lifted out the shipyard even so accurate work is possible you just have to make allowances.

Bob

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

It all depends on the use it has had Carl what ever make of lathe. As to Warco which range of lathes? To get near Harrison etc it would have to be from this range. Maybe some loose screws needed tightening

**LINK**

At least the gears on these are hardened and ground. I have had the gears in the cheaper range. They aren't up to industrial use and some seem to have gone plastic to kill noise. That aspect is disgusting on machines I have heard. Even worse that correctly adjusted change wheels. Frankly if I was buying I'd rather they did pure belt drive. There is always the question of how well ground though. I'm reminded of a hand scraped tail stock. It was but that doesn't mean it was aligned.

Then to be fair some one would need to do a price comparison with the same off say Colchester but even a Boxford is 10k plus. I am assuming some are cheaper than their high spec one.

The other point is I very much doubt if a truly decent Harrison of the size mentioned could be found for under £3k or even more especially with the kit that is needed is with them. Then comes the question does it have a hardened bed. That all on it's own can make a huge difference to wear rates. That's why I mentioned a Boxford VSL, it will be.

There was another ilk of Chinese industrial machines coming over some years ago. I saw some at Excel. They were selling a lot of them round Coventry. Much more traditional looking, big head stock and also advertised as precision. I ask how much precision and was told that there was something in them to take care of spindle alignment. They sounded right, looked right but way too big and heavy for me as small as some were. Then there was cost. There was even a 1in bore spindle all belt driven one with a reasonable speed range about elsewhere too. Not for long though.

John

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Edited By John W1 on 07/07/2015 15:19:19

[Steve PaveyParticipant @stevepavey65865]

I've used all sorts of machines in a few different environments. In industry, all the machinists I met and worked with were very fussy about how they treated their machines. A different story in schools, where lathes did suffer abuse – mainly tools crashing into chucks, but also lack of basic maintenance.

A reasonably competent machinist can produce accurate work on an older worn machine – it might take a bit longer to set things up and measure the job as it progresses to get the results but it's not difficult. Look at Adam Booth (Abom79 on Youtube) to see what he achieves on a Monarch that has seen many years of daily use. My elderly Boxford (1955 model) is still capable of producing work to within a thou with no problem.

My vote is definitely to go for a secondhand British machine – which is in fact exactly what I have done – I bought a Harrison. After a clean up, a dti on the headstock spindle shows a run-out of around 0.001mm. A bit of brass bar in the three jaw chuck shows a run out of 0.002mm. Would a new import lathe be as good? Probably, but I wonder if it would last as long.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

> A reasonably competent machinist can produce accurate work on an older worn machine

Equally true about a modest imported machine built to a price.

I'm increasingly of the opinion that the real deciding factor has to be personal preference than anything else.

Neil

[Bob Brown 1Participant @bobbrown1]

Posted by Steve Pavey on 08/07/2015 20:57:04:

A different story in schools, where lathes did suffer abuse – mainly tools crashing into chucks, but also lack of basic maintenance.

That was not the case with the metalwork class room I attended plus night classes, before the end of the class if you had been using a machine it was your job to clean the machine down and lubricate the slides and bed. It was not a good idea to bang tools into the chuck either else the slipper came out threat was enough the first time!

Kids these days have it far too easy and they know it.

Bob

[jaCK HobsonParticipant @jackhobson50760]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 08/07/2015 21:04:59:

> I'm increasingly of the opinion that the real deciding factor has to be personal preference than anything else.

Neil

Agree.

Buying a used lathe is a gamble unless you know a lot about used lathes. I've always wanted a Myford and now I have one. Was it the £500 bargain I thought it was? Surface finish is not what I expect so something, somewhere is probably not right – can you _know_ if the headstock bearings are adjusted correctly if you have never seen or experienced proper adjustment? I think I've got the Myford thing out of my system now, but I needed to. I'd probably feel dirty and inferior if I'd bought Chinese, but I wouldn't feel that way if I bought one now.

Unless you enjoy restoration projects (to the extent that is almost a priority over getting a good tool) or really know what you are doing, buy something 'as good as new': no play or 'rocking' anywhere; all slides and handles turn smooth and sweet, absolutely no sign of wear on the important bits. It should be clean and polished. It is much easier and safer to buy new and you can be up and running fast.

I'd work with the assumption that this is your first lathe, not your last.

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Posted by Steve Pavey on 08/07/2015 20:57:04:

I've used all sorts of machines in a few different environments. In industry, all the machinists I met and worked with were very fussy about how they treated their machines. A different story in schools, where lathes did suffer abuse – mainly tools crashing into chucks, but also lack of basic maintenance.

A reasonably competent machinist can produce accurate work on an older worn machine – it might take a bit longer to set things up and measure the job as it progresses to get the results but it's not difficult. Look at Adam Booth (Abom79 on Youtube) to see what he achieves on a Monarch that has seen many years of daily use. My elderly Boxford (1955 model) is still capable of producing work to within a thou with no problem.

My vote is definitely to go for a secondhand British machine – which is in fact exactly what I have done – I bought a Harrison. After a clean up, a dti on the headstock spindle shows a run-out of around 0.001mm. A bit of brass bar in the three jaw chuck shows a run out of 0.002mm. Would a new import lathe be as good? Probably, but I wonder if it would last as long.

Sounds like a man from the yahoo boxford group that recently bought a Harrison. Curiously I have never used a Harrison. Many others but not that one. Maybe it's because I have only been around toolrooms.

Those video's mentioned are a good place to go to listen to what a slightly worn gearhead sounds like on the Monarch. Slight signs of stage 1 headstock bearing wear when he is testing it for rather deep cuts too. Recutting when it shouldn't but maybe the tool moved. It is often easy to see the early signs of bearing wear. Crops up when bright drawn is being lightly skimmed with a fine feed. Rings appear along the work due to variations in hardness from the drawing process. Heavier cuts or much coarser feeds overcome this but when the tool is run back down the work it will cut again and not just due to the bar bending as it's being cut.

Accurate work worn out? Depends what can be put up with. I had to use a Taig/Peatol to make a mandrel to fit the Thomas dividing head. Due to earlier abuse forming one side of a V pulley in one cut the head had bent so the mandrel had about 0.005in taper so I corrected that by playing with the cross slide as the tool was run along the work. Finished up parallel to better than 0.0002in, no joints to be seen and as the bearings in these lathes are very solid and it was virtually new a very high class finish. It can be done but I don't want this sort of bother. If the bearings had been loose bang goes the finish. Curiously the person who stuck a gear blank I also turned up on the end of the mandrel and cut it for me had a Harrison – he was very impressed with the finish – better than he could do.

It doesn't really matter what people buy there will be various shades of good and bad about.

Maybe the lack of noise from a gearhead machine is an indication of how hard it's been used and for how long.I heard one Colchester on ebay that personally I wouldn't touch with a barge pole but even that might do decent work if the right sort of cuts are put on at the right time. Sometimes very heavy chucks can help a bit. A new class machine will just make a subdued humming noise. In fact the motor is likely to be noisier under very heavy loads.

I saw mention of 38mm bore and 3hp earlier. Some of that relates to how long it's going to take to reduce the size of parts and how many drills will be needed to drill large holes in stages . It also relates to the material being cut. Some tool steels for instance do need power unless rather light slow cuts are taken. This may be why tool room lathes are often worn also the amount of work some do. Going on elderly machines I have used bearings get to be a problem before the gear head makes much noise.

If people add files and emery etc none of the above matters but jobs will take longer. My Boxford (ME10) is pretty good but I feel it would benefit from new bearings. Mostly because I suspect no one has bothered to adjust them when needed. It will still do accurate work though. Go to gear heads an it would be interesting if lathes co uk mentioned if they were adjustable. I know of one Colchester that definitely isn't. Chipmaster and the 3,000rpm isn't good for that spindle size bearing set up as good as it is.

John

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[jason spencerParticipant @jasonspencer41535]

What about a 'modern' boxford lathe. I bought a lovely sts250 with taper attachment for about £1.2k a few years ago. The best of both worlds, modern equipment, built to toolroom iso standards, sensible price. Something like this?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/boxford-lathe-ts-/191568812836?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item2c9a641b24

[John RuddParticipant @johnrudd16576]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 08/07/2015 21:04:59:

> A reasonably competent machinist can produce accurate work on an older worn machine

Equally true about a modest imported machine built to a price.

I'm increasingly of the opinion that the real deciding factor has to be personal preference than anything else.

Neil

Absolutely….

I have a Chester 9 x 20, a Sieg C3 Super and what looks to be a Warco 290 clone ( amongst others ) ….they all play their part……

I reckon the results achieved on a machine are down to the skill of the operator, although I'd agree that the machine does play a part…

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

A lot of valid comments on this. Now for a few more!

What lathe you choose depends on what you weant to do with it, (and looking to the future; because your horizons will expand as you gain confidence)

Years ago at the Worthing M E S Open Day, someone said "You can do small work on a big lathe, but you can't do big work on a small lathe"

An ex Industry lathe will have been worked hard for most of the time. It was bought to work and earn money for as much of the time, as possible.

An ex College/School lathe will not have seen as much use, but will have been abused. The Toolpost will probably have hit the chuck a few times, or the auto traverse abused and the shear pin been asked to do its job.

A new modern Eastern lathe may well have hardened bedways. Imperial dials/leadscrews may well be harder to find, but recent bikes will be metric anyway.

You may be able to find a fairly recent belt driven "Amateur" lathe in reasonable condition, not having been asked to take deep cuts at high feed rates, for days on end.

(Here, I am thinking terms of Warco BH600, Warco BH900, Chester Craftsman or possibly an Engineers ToolRoom BL12/24) All these are similar, with belt drive headstocks, with power cross feed from a Norton box, so less messing about with changewheels, to cut a wide variety of threads. These have a MT5 mandrel, so will pass upto 38mm. (One of the reasons, that I changed from a Myford ML7)

Geared Head models will be noisier than belt driven.

Older machines, even if mechanically good, may not have the speed range to get the best use from indexable carbide tools.

If you consider buying a second hand machine, with a three phase motor, it may be cheaper to buy an inverter than to a new single phase motor. Luxury, is to have a dual voltage three phase motor, with Variable Spee Drive via an Invertor. (My BL12/24 has a 1.5hp motor with VFD and I rarely find the need to take off more then 0.100" a side in one cut)

Belt drive has one advantage, the belt will slip if everything really jams. Plus belts are cheaper and quicker to replace than broken gears – if you can get them.

Ultimately, as Neil says, it is down to personal choice, and budget.

As an Apprentice, I fell in love with a 21" swing Dean Smith and Grace, but have not space or money for one, so my coat is cut according to my cloth.

Howard

[John RuddParticipant @johnrudd16576]

Wise words Howard and eloquently spoken….

Couldn't agree more..

[Author]

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