Bitcoin crashes…

[martin perman 1Participant @martinperman1]

I self educate myself every day but the bitcoin to me is still in the void of internet space and unless it is placed in my hand to me it doesn't exist so has no real use, it could vanish electronically tomorrow and I would be none the wiser but regardless of value if our monetary system collapsed I would still have something tangible to barter with.

Martin P

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

I know Bitcoin takes some effort to grasp, but once Mrs May explained there was no "Magic Money Tree", there was no way I could understand where the Bank of England got its money from.

Martin.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Gordon W on 16/10/2017 14:09:40:

Be aware that reading this forum entry will generate spam re bitcoin. I've had 3 in 2 days, despite having only passing interest.

.

Strangely … since following Martin's link this lunchtime:

[quote] Really? See here for just one way that Bitcoin benefits humanity. [/quote]

I too have started receiving Bitcoin Spam/Scam eMails.

I would, of course, prefer to think that this is pure coincidence.

MichaelG.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 06/11/2017 17:27:10

[SamsarandaParticipant @samsaranda]

Michael G , I am convinced that nowadays you only have to think of a subject, not even speak about it, and subsequently spam emails come flooding in from the web. How do they do it? We all know that Amazon track our web movements to bombard us but have they developed the ability to read our thoughts before we even express them. There is evidence that certain internet companies are actually listening to our conversations through software that they implant somehow on our mobile phones and eaves drop on our private conversations when we are face to face without using our phones, somehow the software switches our phones to transmit, makes the prospect of Big Brother more real than we think.

Dave

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

For what it's worth; both messages were spoofed to look like they were sent from my account, but appear to actually come from Russia.

MichaelG.

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

Posted by Mike Poole on 06/11/2017 10:57:33:

From now on, the pound abroad is worth 14 per cent or so less in terms of other currencies. That doesn't mean, of course, that the Pound here in Britain, in your pocket or purse or in your bank, has been devalued.
Harold Wilson

Inflation is slow motion theft, government debts are spirited away by having interest rates lower than inflation so eventually your multi million pound debt is worth a Mars bar. Who pays? Old guys like us who have saved for our retirement.

Edited By duncan webster on 06/11/2017 22:00:03

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Inflation is slow motion theft

It's actually quite clever.

Inflation forces you to make your money work to keep up, you must risk your money in the big bad world or its value erodes over time

Even the rich can't simply sit back on their bums and smile contentedly, unless they are willing to watch their wealth drain steadily away over time

We're all in it together, rich and poor, and no-one gets a get out of jail free card

Edited By Ady1 on 07/11/2017 09:39:57

[David Standing 1Participant @davidstanding1]

I worked in the City of London for 41 years.

I remain a Trustee of a Defined Benefit pension Scheme with £100 million of funds invested.

The Trustee work involves an understanding of pensions law, involved investment knowledge, and much other legislative involvement such as the Pensions Regulator.

So, I have a background in finance.

Despite this, I cannot get my head round Bitcoin, because I always come back to the point that it appears to be a solution to a problem that didn't really exist.

I have always had a rule that you shouldn't invest in something you do not understand.

 

Wiki has some interesting comments:

 

Various journalists, economists, and the central bank of Estonia have voiced concerns that bitcoin is a Ponzi scheme. In 2013, Eric Posner, a law professor at the University of Chicago, stated that "a real Ponzi scheme takes fraud; bitcoin, by contrast, seems more like a collective delusion." In 2014 reports by both the World Bank and the Swiss Federal Council examined the concerns and came to the conclusion that bitcoin is not a Ponzi scheme. In July 2017, billionaire Howard Marks referred to bitcoin as a pyramid scheme.

 

On 12 September 2017, Jamie Dimon, CEO of JP Morgan Chase, called bitcoin a "fraud" and said he would fire anyone in his firm caught trading it. Zero Hedge claimed that the same day Dimon made his statement, JP Morgan also purchased a large amount of bitcoins for its clients. On 13 September 2017, Dimon followed up and compared bitcoin to a bubble, saying it was only useful for drug dealers and countries like North Korea. On 22 September 2017, hedge fund Blockswater subsequently accused JP Morgan of market manipulation and filed a market abuse complaint with Swedish Financial Supervisory Authority.

 

 

Until history proves otherwise, I am going with the 'collective delusion' view.

 

 

 

Edite

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Posted by David Standing 1 on 07/11/2017 10:27:06:

I worked in the City of London for 41 years.

I remain a Trustee of a Defined Benefit pension Scheme with £100 million of funds invested.

The Trustee work involves an understanding of pensions law, involved investment knowledge, and much other legislative involvement such as the Pensions Regulator.

So, I have a background in finance.

Despite this, I cannot get my head round Bitcoin, because I always come back to the point that it appears to be a solution to a problem that didn't really exist.

I have always had a rule that you shouldn't invest in something you do not understand.

Wiki has some interesting comments:..

…On 12 September 2017, Jamie Dimon, CEO of JP Morgan Chase, called bitcoin a "fraud" and said he would fire anyone in his firm caught trading it. Zero Hedge claimed that the same day Dimon made his statement, JP Morgan also purchased a large amount of bitcoins for its clients. On 13 September 2017, Dimon followed up and compared bitcoin to a bubble, saying it was only useful for drug dealers and countries like North Korea. On 22 September 2017, hedge fund Blockswater subsequently accused JP Morgan of market manipulation and filed a market abuse complaint with Swedish Financial Supervisory Authority.

Until history proves otherwise, I am going with the 'collective delusion' view.

Edite

With your background it sounds like you could explain what a £ is and how one is created and why it isn't a "collective delusion".

Meanwhile, I include this link JP Morgan's Fines To Date: A Brief History (JPM) and is of course led by the great Jamie Dimon.

This link shows how many times Bitcoin has so far died Bitcoin Obituaries.

Martin.

[BWParticipant @bw]

I get the impression that a spinoff from bitcoin is distributed ledger technology or distributed databases, these things look like they could be useful.

There is a very good TED talk on this, that I liked. https://youtu.be/k53LUZxUF50

Some of the share tipsters in Australia are going nuts and sending out lots of teasers about bitcoin and the cryptocurrency market, something significant happening this month with bitcoin splitting in two ?

Must admit I dont understand bitcoin, but I am also puzzled that my retirement savings and house ownership are also only 1's and 0's in various computers.

Bill

[David Standing 1Participant @davidstanding1]

Posted by blowlamp on 07/11/2017 11:02:46:

With your background it sounds like you could explain what a £ is and how one is created and why it isn't a "collective delusion".

Meanwhile, I include this link JP Morgan's Fines To Date: A Brief History (JPM) and is of course led by the great Jamie Dimon.

This link shows how many times Bitcoin has so far died Bitcoin Obituaries.

Martin.

Martin

I deliberately left the latter part of the Wiki quote on JPM/Jamie Dimon in, in order not to mislead. Just because of what JPM has done, and none of the financial institutions' track record is squeaky clean, it doesn't take away his quote on Bitcoin.

Regarding Bitcoin obituaries, history suggests that greed will always overcome common sense – it has been a fact since the South Sea Bubble in 1720, and in reality there are also plenty of recorded cases prior to that. Whilst there is still a suggestion of money to allegedly be made out of Bitcoin, people will still continue to pile in headless, regardless of the warnings.

Since £ (and in reality you mean the concept of a currency, not just sterling) and Bitcoin have pretty much nothing in common, and this thread is about Bitcoin, I couldn't see the point of having a discussion about currencies, even if I had the time or inclination, of which I have neither. If you need to understand the concept of currencies, there are plenty of far better qualified economists than me (which I am not) around.

if you just want to have a meaningless discussion about currencies and global economies, I will skip that one thanks – I've drunk my coffee whilst typing this, I need to go back to insulating my workshop.

I know enough to know world economies are built on a model of growth, which is a deck of cards waiting to collapse, and it is a one way street with a big hole at the end of it

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Posted by David Standing 1 on 07/11/2017 13:23:31:

Posted by blowlamp on 07/11/2017 11:02:46:

With your background it sounds like you could explain what a £ is and how one is created and why it isn't a "collective delusion".

Meanwhile, I include this link JP Morgan's Fines To Date: A Brief History (JPM) and is of course led by the great Jamie Dimon.

This link shows how many times Bitcoin has so far died Bitcoin Obituaries.

Martin.

Martin

I deliberately left the latter part of the Wiki quote on JPM/Jamie Dimon in, in order not to mislead. Just because of what JPM has done, and none of the financial institutions' track record is squeaky clean, it doesn't take away his quote on Bitcoin.

Regarding Bitcoin obituaries, history suggests that greed will always overcome common sense – it has been a fact since the South Sea Bubble in 1720, and in reality there are also plenty of recorded cases prior to that. Whilst there is still a suggestion of money to allegedly be made out of Bitcoin, people will still continue to pile in headless, regardless of the warnings.

Since £ (and in reality you mean the concept of a currency, not just sterling) and Bitcoin have pretty much nothing in common, and this thread is about Bitcoin, I couldn't see the point of having a discussion about currencies, even if I had the time or inclination, of which I have neither. If you need to understand the concept of currencies, there are plenty of far better qualified economists than me (which I am not) around.

if you just want to have a meaningless discussion about currencies and global economies, I will skip that one thanks – I've drunk my coffee whilst typing this, I need to go back to insulating my workshop.

I know enough to know world economies are built on a model of growth, which is a deck of cards waiting to collapse, and it is a one way street with a big hole at the end of it

David.

A quote from the JP Morgan article I linked to: "All in all, JP Morgan was fined $35,241,500,000 in a three-and-a-half year period".

So for you to respond by saying "Just because of what JPM has done, and none of the financial institutions' track record is squeaky clean, it doesn't take away his quote on Bitcoin." gave me a really good laugh and the penny dropped that you were just teasing me. You little devil

Martin.

[David Standing 1Participant @davidstanding1]

Posted by blowlamp on 07/11/2017 14:20:09:

Posted by David Standing 1 on 07/11/2017 13:23:31:

Posted by blowlamp on 07/11/2017 11:02:46:

With your background it sounds like you could explain what a £ is and how one is created and why it isn't a "collective delusion".

Meanwhile, I include this link JP Morgan's Fines To Date: A Brief History (JPM) and is of course led by the great Jamie Dimon.

This link shows how many times Bitcoin has so far died Bitcoin Obituaries.

Martin.

Martin

I deliberately left the latter part of the Wiki quote on JPM/Jamie Dimon in, in order not to mislead. Just because of what JPM has done, and none of the financial institutions' track record is squeaky clean, it doesn't take away his quote on Bitcoin.

Regarding Bitcoin obituaries, history suggests that greed will always overcome common sense – it has been a fact since the South Sea Bubble in 1720, and in reality there are also plenty of recorded cases prior to that. Whilst there is still a suggestion of money to allegedly be made out of Bitcoin, people will still continue to pile in headless, regardless of the warnings.

Since £ (and in reality you mean the concept of a currency, not just sterling) and Bitcoin have pretty much nothing in common, and this thread is about Bitcoin, I couldn't see the point of having a discussion about currencies, even if I had the time or inclination, of which I have neither. If you need to understand the concept of currencies, there are plenty of far better qualified economists than me (which I am not) around.

if you just want to have a meaningless discussion about currencies and global economies, I will skip that one thanks – I've drunk my coffee whilst typing this, I need to go back to insulating my workshop.

I know enough to know world economies are built on a model of growth, which is a deck of cards waiting to collapse, and it is a one way street with a big hole at the end of it

David.

A quote from the JP Morgan article I linked to: "All in all, JP Morgan was fined $35,241,500,000 in a three-and-a-half year period".

So for you to respond by saying "Just because of what JPM has done, and none of the financial institutions' track record is squeaky clean, it doesn't take away his quote on Bitcoin." gave me a really good laugh and the penny dropped that you were just teasing me. You little devil

Martin.

Martin

I meant the quote 'Bitcoin is just a bubble'.

So, I'm afraid you totally misread me.

I will conclude my part in this discussion here, because I don't want to waste any more of my time on it.

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Posted by David Standing 1 on 07/11/2017 16:31:53:

Posted by blowlamp on 07/11/2017 14:20:09:

Posted by David Standing 1 on 07/11/2017 13:23:31:

Posted by blowlamp on 07/11/2017 11:02:46:

With your background it sounds like you could explain what a £ is and how one is created and why it isn't a "collective delusion".

Meanwhile, I include this link JP Morgan's Fines To Date: A Brief History (JPM) and is of course led by the great Jamie Dimon.

This link shows how many times Bitcoin has so far died Bitcoin Obituaries.

Martin.

Martin

I deliberately left the latter part of the Wiki quote on JPM/Jamie Dimon in, in order not to mislead. Just because of what JPM has done, and none of the financial institutions' track record is squeaky clean, it doesn't take away his quote on Bitcoin.

Regarding Bitcoin obituaries, history suggests that greed will always overcome common sense – it has been a fact since the South Sea Bubble in 1720, and in reality there are also plenty of recorded cases prior to that. Whilst there is still a suggestion of money to allegedly be made out of Bitcoin, people will still continue to pile in headless, regardless of the warnings.

Since £ (and in reality you mean the concept of a currency, not just sterling) and Bitcoin have pretty much nothing in common, and this thread is about Bitcoin, I couldn't see the point of having a discussion about currencies, even if I had the time or inclination, of which I have neither. If you need to understand the concept of currencies, there are plenty of far better qualified economists than me (which I am not) around.

if you just want to have a meaningless discussion about currencies and global economies, I will skip that one thanks – I've drunk my coffee whilst typing this, I need to go back to insulating my workshop.

I know enough to know world economies are built on a model of growth, which is a deck of cards waiting to collapse, and it is a one way street with a big hole at the end of it

David.

A quote from the JP Morgan article I linked to: "All in all, JP Morgan was fined $35,241,500,000 in a three-and-a-half year period".

So for you to respond by saying "Just because of what JPM has done, and none of the financial institutions' track record is squeaky clean, it doesn't take away his quote on Bitcoin." gave me a really good laugh and the penny dropped that you were just teasing me. You little devil

Martin.

Martin

I meant the quote 'Bitcoin is just a bubble'.

So, I'm afraid you totally misread me.

I will conclude my part in this discussion here, because I don't want to waste any more of my time on it.

…but, but you haven't told us what insulation you're using!

Cheers, Martin.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

One question.

The people who are making such gains on bitcoin… are they paying investment taxes?

Neil

[David Standing 1Participant @davidstanding1]

Posted by blowlamp on 07/11/2017 16:37:20:

Posted by David Standing 1 on 07/11/2017 16:31:53:

Posted by blowlamp on 07/11/2017 14:20:09:

Posted by David Standing 1 on 07/11/2017 13:23:31:

Posted by blowlamp on 07/11/2017 11:02:46:

With your background it sounds like you could explain what a £ is and how one is created and why it isn't a "collective delusion".

Meanwhile, I include this link JP Morgan's Fines To Date: A Brief History (JPM) and is of course led by the great Jamie Dimon.

This link shows how many times Bitcoin has so far died Bitcoin Obituaries.

Martin.

Martin

I deliberately left the latter part of the Wiki quote on JPM/Jamie Dimon in, in order not to mislead. Just because of what JPM has done, and none of the financial institutions' track record is squeaky clean, it doesn't take away his quote on Bitcoin.

Regarding Bitcoin obituaries, history suggests that greed will always overcome common sense – it has been a fact since the South Sea Bubble in 1720, and in reality there are also plenty of recorded cases prior to that. Whilst there is still a suggestion of money to allegedly be made out of Bitcoin, people will still continue to pile in headless, regardless of the warnings.

Since £ (and in reality you mean the concept of a currency, not just sterling) and Bitcoin have pretty much nothing in common, and this thread is about Bitcoin, I couldn't see the point of having a discussion about currencies, even if I had the time or inclination, of which I have neither. If you need to understand the concept of currencies, there are plenty of far better qualified economists than me (which I am not) around.

if you just want to have a meaningless discussion about currencies and global economies, I will skip that one thanks – I've drunk my coffee whilst typing this, I need to go back to insulating my workshop.

I know enough to know world economies are built on a model of growth, which is a deck of cards waiting to collapse, and it is a one way street with a big hole at the end of it

David.

A quote from the JP Morgan article I linked to: "All in all, JP Morgan was fined $35,241,500,000 in a three-and-a-half year period".

So for you to respond by saying "Just because of what JPM has done, and none of the financial institutions' track record is squeaky clean, it doesn't take away his quote on Bitcoin." gave me a really good laugh and the penny dropped that you were just teasing me. You little devil

Martin.

Martin

I meant the quote 'Bitcoin is just a bubble'.

So, I'm afraid you totally misread me.

I will conclude my part in this discussion here, because I don't want to waste any more of my time on it.

…but, but you haven't told us what insulation you're using!

Cheers, Martin.

Ah, that's different

I'm just doing the garage doors for now as the rest of the garage is fairly well insulated, apart from the loft space which I shall do next year.

There are two pairs of 2m wide ledged and braced timber doors, faced with 10mm T&G which has warped in places so daylight shows through, so a lot of heat gets lost through them.

I have filled in the spaces between the ledges and braces on the inside of the doors with 25mm Xtratherm (Celotex by another name), and faced off the doors over the top of that with 5mm ply to tidy it up and hold the insulation in place.

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 07/11/2017 17:21:53:

One question.

The people who are making such gains on bitcoin… are they paying investment taxes?

Neil

Apparently not, in Paradise.

Martin.

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Posted by David Standing 1 on 07/11/2017 17:51:20:

Posted by blowlamp on 07/11/2017 16:37:20:

…but, but you haven't told us what insulation you're using!

Cheers, Martin.

Ah, that's different

I'm just doing the garage doors for now as the rest of the garage is fairly well insulated, apart from the loft space which I shall do next year.

There are two pairs of 2m wide ledged and braced timber doors, faced with 10mm T&G which has warped in places so daylight shows through, so a lot of heat gets lost through them.

I have filled in the spaces between the ledges and braces on the inside of the doors with 25mm Xtratherm (Celotex by another name), and faced off the doors over the top of that with 5mm ply to tidy it up and hold the insulation in place.

Is it fire retardent? That stuff needs treating with care after seeing what happened at Grenfell.

Martin.

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

To be honest i'm surprised people haven't got bigger problems to worry about than bitcoin, if people wanna throw their money at computerized data that's fine.

But it certainly isn't my thing. I'm more worried about real things.

Michael W

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Posted by Michael-w on 07/11/2017 22:43:04:

To be honest i'm surprised people haven't got bigger problems to worry about than bitcoin, if people wanna throw their money at computerized data that's fine.

But it certainly isn't my thing. I'm more worried about real things.

Michael W

Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies are the most important innovation of our lifetimes and will become ubiquitous.

It won't be too long before you can pay for your computerized data online magazine subscription in bitcoin and probably at a discount over an equivalent debit/credit card payment – in fact you could probably pay by the page, directly from the built-in wallet of your web browser.

Martin.

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

One question. The people who are making such gains on bitcoin… are they paying investment taxes?

They are like shares or gold, you pay when you cash them in, subject to capital gains tax rules

Cash in only a couple and your gain is tax free

Cash in a thousand and you pay 40% odd

The honesty of your dealings is up to you, just like with the rest of your life

(If the IRS catch you being naughty then they will tear you to pieces)

[Ian ParkinParticipant @ianparkin39383]

A few questions if anyone can answer them?

Where do the individual coins come from?

as they take a $1000 each to mine when a Crypto Currency (CC) starts where do the coins come from to sell on to people at $1 each…who stands to this loss?

Are Bitcoins(BC) limited to 21 million or are all individual CC's limited to that number each or indeed all CC's ever going to be limited to 21 million?

I can see that with BC at $6000 and rising its a good return on your $1000 energy cost to mine one but when they started they were only pennies each as new CC releases are

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

as they take a $1000 each to mine when a Crypto Currency (CC) starts where do the coins come from to sell on to people at $1 each…who stands to this loss?

It's like any business, early adopters stand to make the most gains or take the huge losses, (Like with Uber etc)

Cryptos are "Disruptive Technology" like Uber and driverless cars and robots

Bitcoin etc disrupts financial services as an alternative store of wealth

Anyone can do a startup but getting big and credible is a huge task which only a few will succeed at, it takes a lot of know-how and risk capital to get up to the dizzy heights of an established trading crypto

There are loads of cryptos around on the net but as with messaging apps only a few will be the big players with the necessary liquidity, all the moreso with cryptos because Bitcoin can buy and sell the lot of them with a few mouse clicks

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Ady1 on 08/11/2017 01:15:50:

One question. The people who are making such gains on bitcoin… are they paying investment taxes?

They are like shares or gold, you pay when you cash them in, subject to capital gains tax rules

Cash in only a couple and your gain is tax free

Cash in a thousand and you pay 40% odd

The honesty of your dealings is up to you, just like with the rest of your life

(If the IRS catch you being naughty then they will tear you to pieces)

How do you 'catch' someone who has bitcoins?

[David Standing 1Participant @davidstanding1]

Posted by blowlamp on 07/11/2017 22:27:33:

 

Is it fire retardent? That stuff needs treating with care after seeing what happened at Grenfell.

 

Martin.

 

 

Nope, but then it isn't Grenfell Tower.

 

 

Edited By David Standing 1 on 08/11/2017 10:15:15

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