Basic Electrics

[clogsParticipant @clogs]

this is for a home workshop.…..

I have several machine at 3HP and 1x 5hHP, all 3 phase and they all have a plug……..

correct for 3phase and size of power used……….

3 reasons,

1, it's a pain when I need to move machines in the workshop when tied to the wall…..

2, have an inate fear of the power being switched on by mistake when moving or working within/around the machines…..

3, In France the fixed to the wall type isolater was almost €125 each x the number of machines….expensive….

so the plug n play method saved me 2/3rds of the cost……..

Also in France LeGrand is the only supplier of H/D electrical gear….and they have u by the short and curley's…..

so in my opinion there's nothing wrong with plugs n sockets provided they are QUALITY components….and within the amperage usage……

BUT

if running near max power for long periods then a dedicated supply must be used…..say a large comp, arc welder etc….

whilst on the subject of elec……..

with exceptions I prefered the old fashioned wired fuse board……esp around the arc welder etc…..

where I used to live we got a lot of electrical storms, many a times I've had to replace an RCD or what ever they are called due to a close lightning strikes……once the house took a direct hit and it welded the 3 phase RCD main isolater together……that was €240 to replace, about 1/2 that in the UK…….

it seems to me most elec problems in the home workshop is nobody wants to spend the money to get a DEDICATED supply instaled…..a 2.5mm extension lead just cant hack it……

keep the electrical questions comming………

[larry phelan 1Participant @larryphelan1]

I remember using a Desoutter ? drill many moons ago where I worked. It was silver and green, Ali, I suppose, and very powerful. Never saw them on sale anywhere, but years later I came across a drill stand to suit one of them and bought it for £7, then altered it to suit my Makita 1/2" drill and used it for years until I got rich and bought a floor standing 16 speed machine.. Still have the stand, now changed to suit another make. That stand was built like a battleship, no tinny bits there, cast iron base like a mill table, 1 1/2" upright.

Had a small Millers Falls 1/4" too, never see those around either

In those days drills had nothing fancy about them A drill was a drill was a drill full stop !

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Posted by Maurice Taylor on 13/07/2020 23:13:36:

Please explain why a small machine say 1HP or less shouldn’t use a plug .

What is wrong with 4 low power items plugged in 4 way socket ?

I can only conclude that for he purists it then does not need PAT testing.

regards Martin (Electrical and Electronics Engineer)

[Len Morris 2Participant @lenmorris2]

Hi Maurice.

The description of your profession makes my point exactly. There is a word of difference 'Electrical' and 'Electronics'.

Stepper motors, VFD's, digital tachometers, DRO's, Arduino micro-controls etc are a world away from repairing a 40 year old Siemens control board.

There is nothing wrong with running things on plugs or 4 way sockets. It's just a case of matching the supply capability to the current draw of the maximum load and sizing the plugs/wires/fuses correctly.

Easy to do for resistive equipment. A bit harder with motors. They have a momentary start current much higher than the running current. I'm sure you know this.

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Posted by Steve Neighbour on 13/07/2020 23:02:24:

<SNIP>

There are, I'm sure many of us who undertake 'home electrical work' and I suspect that a lot is not even close to meeting the requirements of the Institute of Electrical Engineers 17th edition Regulations.

If there are folk on here who can offer qualified and SAFE advice, then in my mind that has to be a good thing, and if the advice offered is dubious, then knowing how forums work, it will be corrected PDQ by someone who knows better !

Steve

Or even the 18th editon of BS7671(the curent one)

Also BS7671 does not cover the wiring of equipment, just the fixed installation.
Most questions would be about equipment.
Nothing wrong with putting a small machine tool on a 13A plug. It has the advantage of easy nd 100% isolation for starters.

Robert G8RPI.

[Adam MaraParticipant @adammara]

On the subject of extension leads..

Possible trip hazard as well !

(Brugge market 2005)

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, I doubt many people would get concerned about using their electric kettle being used frequently with a 13A plug, or if you prefer a BS1363/ BS1363/A plug. Most kettles will draw 2000w plus and I don't think many people would hesitate to re-boil a kettle a second time almost immediately after it's emptied. As far as I'm aware, a 13A plug can carry 13amps continuously, certainly for rewireable ones, however, non rewireable types are only rated by the manufacturer and the fuse must not exceed that stated on the plug and the fuse is only rated to protect the flex between the plug and the appliance it is connected too, whether it is a rewireable type or not, therefore if you have a flex rated at 3 amps with a 13A plug, it should have no more than a 3 amp fuse fitted. The fuse is not considered to protect the appliance or to prevent an overload.

Regards Nick.

Edited By Nicholas Farr on 14/07/2020 15:52:00

[Steve NeighbourParticipant @steveneighbour43428]

Posted by Maurice Taylor on 13/07/2020 23:13:36:

Please explain why a small machine say 1HP or less shouldn’t use a plug .

What is wrong with 4 low power items plugged in 4 way socket ?

1HP (or less is fine) on a 13A plug, but the starting current (typically 4x running current) will be getting near to the plug rating, albeit for a short time, so plugged into a socket with nothing else will be fine, but it is often shared with other appliances and equipment and this is not so good.

Depends what you mean by 'low power' . . .the issue is that it is far too easy to overload the adapter and socket, plug using too many items at the same time, maybe not so much in a work shop enviroment, but we have all seen a TV, Video recorder, Lamp, and even a electric heater all plugged into one 13A socket – its a recipe for disaster !

[Steve NeighbourParticipant @steveneighbour43428]

Posted by Adam Mara on 14/07/2020 15:27:09:

On the subject of extension leads..

Possible trip hazard as well !

(Brugge market 2005)

Possible ?? I'd say a definite trip hazard !!

Looking at the plugs which are Blue, would suggest this is all running at 220/230 volts, and the trailing cables have no cover protection – a disaster waiting to happen

In the UK, electricity still claims on average 25-30 lives every year, the most common 'accident' is electrocution from Electric Lawn mowers and Hedge Trimmers (being used without a RCD protective device) and the user inadvertantly cuts the cable, and then 'fiddles' with the damaged part of the cable without isolating from the supply

These fatalities are so so easily avoided !!!

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

Evolution at work….

[Maurice TaylorParticipant @mauricetaylor82093]

Posted by Steve Neighbour on 14/07/2020 19:50:10:

Posted by Maurice Taylor on 13/07/2020 23:13:36:

Please explain why a small machine say 1HP or less shouldn’t use a plug .

What is wrong with 4 low power items plugged in 4 way socket ?

1HP (or less is fine) on a 13A plug, but the starting current (typically 4x running current) will be getting near to the plug rating, albeit for a short time, so plugged into a socket with nothing else will be fine, but it is often shared with other appliances and equipment and this is not so good.

Depends what you mean by 'low power' . . .the issue is that it is far too easy to overload the adapter and socket, plug using too many items at the same time, maybe not so much in a work shop enviroment, but we have all seen a TV, Video recorder, Lamp, and even a electric heater all plugged into one 13A socket – its a recipe for disaster !

Thanks for replying to my post.

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Posted by Steve Neighbour on 14/07/2020 19:50:10:

Posted by Maurice Taylor on 13/07/2020 23:13:36:

Please explain why a small machine say 1HP or less shouldn’t use a plug .

What is wrong with 4 low power items plugged in 4 way socket ?

1HP (or less is fine) on a 13A plug, but the starting current (typically 4x running current) will be getting near to the plug rating, albeit for a short time, so plugged into a socket with nothing else will be fine, but it is often shared with other appliances and equipment and this is not so good.

Depends what you mean by 'low power' . . .the issue is that it is far too easy to overload the adapter and socket, plug using too many items at the same time, maybe not so much in a work shop enviroment, but we have all seen a TV, Video recorder, Lamp, and even a electric heater all plugged into one 13A socket – its a recipe for disaster !

Hi, this is one reason people should know some basic electrics, as some adapters may contain a 13 amp fuse and the fuse does not just blow the moment more than 13 amps is drawn and of course those adapters without a fuse will deliver as much current that circuit will allow, i.e. a ring main with a 32 amp MCB and therefore you could get 32 amps plus flowing through your adapter rated only for a maximum current of 13 amps, that's just about two and a half times it's rated value and would more than likely to get extremely hot and even burn. Of course the same thing about overloading will apply to multi gang extension leads.

Regards Nick.

[J HancockParticipant @jhancock95746]

There's a Nikola Tesla in waiting in all of us , HSE would have done for him, imagine no ac.

[File HandleParticipant @filehandle]

I remember when it was common to plug electric irons into lighting circuits via adapters. Don't remember there ever being an issue with this. Is perhaps the fear of things going wrong greater than the reality. have had to rectify some very dubious wiring in some of the houses we have bought, e.g. lighting cable with legnths with no insulation, a 13 amp socket wired with 2 core orange cable. Clearly the previous occupants had lived with this with no consequences.

[J HancockParticipant @jhancock95746]

For basic electricity, best remember never to do any DiY whilst in the bath , after that, never forget to light the gas if you turn it on. No-one ever seems to worry about gas anymore despite some pretty impressive gaps in houses when mistakes occur.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by J Hancock on 15/07/2020 11:31:29:

There's a Nikola Tesla in waiting in all of us , HSE would have done for him, imagine no ac.

It's said that Edison promoted his electric chair partly to discredit Tesla's AC.

Neil

[ChrisHParticipant @chrish]

" needs a sparky and a certificate of conformity now" – to wire in a 13 amp plug? Surely not!

Not so many years ago, back in the day, every electrical appliance you bought necessitated you then going out and buying a 13 amp plug, plus 3A and/or 5A fuses, (because very little of what you bought required a 13 fuse but thats what all plugs came – still does I think) and then fitting that to said just bought electrical appliance. And everyone did it. Even those thick-as-two-freezer-doors dumbos could wire in a 13A plug back then, and without disasters – I cannot recall newspapers or radio news or TV news running stories about someone blowing themselves up wiring in a 13A plug every day, or ever even. Wiring in a 13A plug was the first DIY job you learned back then, you just had to know it, so people did it. And survived.

So why has Nanny now decided that we're all so stupid and incapable that we require a sparky and a certificate of conformity to wire in a 13A plug? Just because electrical stuff now comes with a plug fitted? Then how do we, us adults, do really tricky stuff like crossing a busy road safely, on our own, without a certificate of conformity or going on a compulsory two day training course first, or holding someones hand. The world is slowly going mad!

And you wonder why people just switch off. Not '1984' yet is it?

End of rant for the day

[Tony Pratt 1Participant @tonypratt1]

I believe you are getting your knickers in a twist over nothing as I’m sure the regs allow certain electrical jobs to be done by non qualified people or am I wrong? Tony

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi ChrisH, you could and still can get 13 amp plugs fitted with a 3 amp or 5 amp fuse 13A with 3A fuse 13A with 5A fuse the problem was/is not everyone stock them. As far as I'm aware, you can fit a plug yourself for your own use, but you may be restricted in a place of work.

Regards Nick.

Edited By Nicholas Farr on 16/07/2020 06:35:54

[derek hall 1Participant @derekhall1]

I am pretty sure that if you need to cut off the factory fitted moulded plug from a domestic appliance for any reason and fit a replacement plug you can invalidate any warranty …..

But I stand to be corrected

Regards to all

Derek

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi Dereck Hall 1, it is quite possible that if you cut off a factory fitted plug that is the moulded on type you may well invalidate any warranty, however if you do and fit a rewireable plug, you must ensure that the fuse rating that you fit in the rewireable plug, is no higher that fitted in the original plugs rating, this will be found somewhere on the plug, normally on the pin side, as in the photo below, with the max fuse rating above a line over the voltage with a sine wave sine to the right. In the photo below, it is 5/250 i.e. 5 amps 250 volts max.

Regards Nick.

[Harry WilkesParticipant @harrywilkes58467]

Posted by ChrisH on 15/07/2020 21:45:50:

" needs a sparky and a certificate of conformity now" – to wire in a 13 amp plug? Surely not!

Not so many years ago, back in the day, every electrical appliance you bought necessitated you then going out and buying a 13 amp plug, plus 3A and/or 5A fuses, (because very little of what you bought required a 13 fuse but thats what all plugs came – still does I think) and then fitting that to said just bought electrical appliance. And everyone did it. Even those thick-as-two-freezer-doors dumbos could wire in a 13A plug back then, and without disasters – I cannot recall newspapers or radio news or TV news running stories about someone blowing themselves up wiring in a 13A plug every day, or ever even. Wiring in a 13A plug was the first DIY job you learned back then, you just had to know it, so people did it. And survived.

So why has Nanny now decided that we're all so stupid and incapable that we require a sparky and a certificate of conformity to wire in a 13A plug? Just because electrical stuff now comes with a plug fitted? Then how do we, us adults, do really tricky stuff like crossing a busy road safely, on our own, without a certificate of conformity or going on a compulsory two day training course first, or holding someones hand. The world is slowly going mad!

And you wonder why people just switch off. Not '1984' yet is it?

End of rant for the day

"then how do we, us adults, do really tricky stuff like crossing a busy road safely,

Well Chris what can I add other than hope the link works link

H

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi Harry, beggar's belief, but went in doubt, better to be cautious I suppose.

Regards Nick.

[SamsarandaParticipant @samsaranda]

We always seem to be so hung up with fuses that we relate to protecting the appliance where in reality the fuse is there to protect the supply cable. If an appliance, e.g. a lighting appliance comes with a plug fitted with for instance a 5 amp fuse then you will find in reality the cable will be rated for 5 amps and to change the fuse for a higher rating, say 13 amp, will compromise the safety of the cable if the appliance develops a fault.
Dave W

[Nick Clarke 3Participant @nickclarke3]

Posted by derek hall 1 on 16/07/2020 07:34:51:

I am pretty sure that if you need to cut off the factory fitted moulded plug from a domestic appliance for any reason and fit a replacement plug you can invalidate any warranty …..

But I stand to be corrected

Regards to all

Derek

I don't know either, but I suspect if the plug failed for any reason and you claimed under warranty they would say it was a user replaceable item.

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