Anyone bought a new Myford

[pa4c pa4cParticipant @pa4cpa4c85075]

It's the Scot in me. I just cannot see north of 8k in a new Myford. In fairness I am looking at it from a work perspective, I have summararily dismissed something that I cannot get inch bar up the spindle, I will sit in the corner for an hour or two.

It's a bit like Linux and Windows I suppose. Linux is only free if you place no value on your time OR it is a hobby. Which is where the Myfords are positioned, the hobby market. Yes, a Myford could well be useful to a Clock maker, but he isn't exactly producing a thousand off, I wouldn't have thought.

As for accessories, the way I see it, most of these accessories are in lieu of other machines, such as a mill for instance or have been developed as a project in their own right, One thing is for certain, if you have a grand in an S7 you are likely to get your money back (or your heirs are) when it gets sold. Most second hand machinery has depreciated to it's current market value and stayed there. If you think you have a bargain, I am happy for you and if you think you can make a bit buying and selling machines on an "upgrade" path good luck to you. Personally I don't need the upheaval and I dread a move that is coming my way in a couple of years.

It's a bit like the non stop knocking of far eastern machinery, it is built to a price. Not everyone can throw 3 or 4 grand at a used lathe complete with tooling so the mini lathe has it's place, look how many there are out there. And with every conceivable accessory available or the plans therefore. They don't depreciate that much either, not from what I can see anyway. This style of thread will always polarise people and it's the way it is, will always be. What works for one may not work for another. As they say, beauty is in the eye of the beholder and a long bed Harrison 450 is a beautiful thing. I could probably get a Myford between centres, I must try that one day.

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

IIRC from "Watchmaking" George Daniels mainly used the Myford for making cases. Would need to check to see which lathes he used for most of the watch parts.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

The question was 'Anyone bought a new Myford?'. The answer appears to be 'No'! The people have spoken.

Actually I find the lack of response a little odd. Is it possible the sort of Model Engineer who prepared to post on the forum isn't representative of Model Engineers as a whole? I know I'm a bit odd, but are the rest of you normal?

In MEW 275, Neil's editorial on Engineering and other Hobbies includes the sentence 'From our forum at http://www.model-engineer.co.uk my impression is that as much time is spent in our workshops on projects other than models or making tools.' That's my experience too.

Perhaps In addition to their qualities as machine tools, Myford have become the last symbol of the golden age of Model Engineering. Engineers should beware of emotional responses. Times have changed. LBSC, Edgar Westbury and the other giants are all dead. Imperial measure is fading into history. In the West low-end and most labour intensive manufacturing has shifted abroad. Many once highly valued skills have been made redundant by technology.

In some ways I find this decline sad BUT surely 'the king is dead long live the king! ' New technology calls for new skills. There is plenty of interest to be had from microcontrollers, CNC, 3D-printing, and other technical hobbies. These are where a living is to be had, not capstan lathe operating. Grandad made steam engines, grandson is more likely into robots, digital, geo-caching, electronics, and quad-copters. The good thing is that lathes and milling machines remain at the core of engineering. For the type of machining I do, a new Myford lathe isn't 'value for money'. For others,I'm certain the same machine would be a good buy.

Dave

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Just stepping back a little. Consider the success of the Super7 as a commercial product.

First launched in 1952 of the back of the ML7 it has been continuously in production and development for 66 years. It acheived a global sales reach and the spares market alone was and probably is of lasting commercial value. When the original Myford Company was wound up due to the death of the main man (it didn't go bust) it was seen as valuable enough to buy as a going concern with the new owners re-establiching production of initially gearboxes and laterly new Connoiseurs the final iteration of the Super7. In my opinion the success of the Super7 lies in identifiying a gap in the market for a toolroom (1950's parameters) quality lathe and building it at the right price and size. It suited model engineers, schools and training establishments. Because of this Myfords established an enormous market presence which coupled with tooling that suited the Myford and the fact that they didn't wear out quickly (and when they did refurbishment was simple and offered by the company) gave the lathe a persistance beyond many if not most other models.

So whilst it's not surprising that the design does have something of an outdated feel to it due to it's very success I must rank as an outstanding product from a commercial perspective.

You will guess I'm a fan but I would be the last to argue that there are not much better more modern lathes around of the same size. However when I bought my first one (second hand on a budget) knowing that there was going to be spares available far into the future was a big draw. How many newish but obsolete far eastern machines are out there. ?

regards Martin

 

 

Edited By Martin Kyte on 28/11/2018 11:21:36

Edited By Martin Kyte on 28/11/2018 11:22:34

[ronan walshParticipant @ronanwalsh98054]

Posted by thaiguzzi on 28/11/2018 04:21:44:

Posted by ronan walsh on 27/11/2018 15:53:40:

Posted by pa4c pa4c on 26/11/2018 19:29:47:

I have never met anyone who regrets buying a Colchester or a Harrison.

Well you have met me now. I took a colchester home from work, and regret taking it for free ! Another grossly overrated brand, like landrover, barbour etc. Trading on a history of a name, when their products are often middle of the road at best, and downright junk at worst.

WASH YOUR MOUTH out with a bar of soap & water!!!

LOL, show me where i am wrong though ? Its not all bad though, Triumph and norton are making bikes for example, that are better than ever.

[Jon LawesParticipant @jonlawes51698]

There is something quite nice about using a machine that looks like it would be operated by someone in a dustcoat and a flat-cap… The new posh stuff looks far too nice to look at home in my workshop!

[Chris TriceParticipant @christrice43267]

As with any arguments about value, market forces are the final arbitrator. Something either sells or it doesn't and as Martin points out, the Myford Super 7 is a strong and successful product for more than 70 years. The ONLY real update/modification that one could argue should have happened sooner was a bigger spindle bore. In all other respects it has clearly met the needs of seventy years worth of home based model engineers which is the market it aims at. Serious industry wouldn't look at a Myford nowadays anymore than it would a "traditional" Harrison or Colchester because serious industry has already moved onto CNC. Manual lathes suit the smaller cheaper workshop manned by an artisan rather than a mass manufacturer and the size of that manual lathe is totally dependent of the class of work the artisan wishes to produce. Hobbyists in the main dabble in model engineering. They make what they like or produce stuff for a bit of pocket money but they also like the idea of expanding their skill set with a lathe that can expand with them. Again, a Super 7 does that.

[Roger Williams 2Participant @rogerwilliams2]

Ronan, yes, Triumph are supplying the engines for Moto 2 next year, they sound lovely .Something to look forward too !.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Martin Kyte on 28/11/2018 11:20:51:

You will guess I'm a fan but I would be the last to argue that there are not much better more modern lathes around of the same size. However when I bought my first one (second hand on a budget) knowing that there was going to be spares available far into the future was a big draw. How many newish but obsolete far eastern machines are out there. ?

The S7 was produced for 52 years.

My mini lathe is 20 years old and they are now around 25 years or so in production, with spares readily available. That's half as long as the S7 with no sign of mini lathe sales drying up.

No mini lathes lathes are featured on the Lathes.co.uk website, although vastly more of them have been sold than most or possibly all of the machines listed there.

Does make you wonder whether, in the grand scheme of things, mini lathes have got more people into the hobby?

Neil

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 28/11/2018 18:30:57:

Does make you wonder whether, in the grand scheme of things, mini lathes have got more people into the hobby?

Neil

That answer has to be yes (but what hobby? &nbsp Most people do not want machines that require lifting gear to move, nor spend thousands on something

[egaParticipant @ega]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 28/11/2018 18:30:57:

…

No mini lathes lathes are featured on the Lathes.co.uk website, although vastly more of them have been sold than most or possibly all of the machines listed there.

…

There is a very long list of "other makes" on that website which Tony Griffiths does not cover in detail; Sieg (however spelled) does not seem to be on it.

I agree that there is a case for a representative minilathe to be included and I expect TG would be happy to do so if you write and illustrate the entry.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by ega on 29/11/2018 15:11:35:

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 28/11/2018 18:30:57:

…

No mini lathes lathes are featured on the Lathes.co.uk website, although vastly more of them have been sold than most or possibly all of the machines listed there.

…

There is a very long list of "other makes" on that website which Tony Griffiths does not cover in detail; Sieg (however spelled) does not seem to be on it.

I agree that there is a case for a representative minilathe to be included and I expect TG would be happy to do so if you write and illustrate the entry.

I wrote the book

Neil

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

lathes.co.uk does cover Chinese lathes. They are given stick in the Beginners Guide. It says:

As in other fields, the market is now awash with cheaply-built machines from China – that country having largely displaced the former leaders, Korea and Taiwan, in the manufacture of these products. Machine tools from all these countries offer a lot of “metal for the money”, however, although they often look the part, a cursory examination will reveal that the smaller ones, intended for amateur use, still lack several vital elements amongst which the most important general ones are quality of materials; care in assembly and set up and, more specifically, tumble reverse; slow-speed backgear and a wide range of spindle speeds. While, in recent years, many of these imported machines have been considerably improved, unfortunately there are still many examples that fall woefully short of an acceptable standard. Proper British and American small lathes (but not most modern "European" or Far Eastern examples) normally include all or most of these essential features. However, they are expensive to provide and, by including them, the makers reduce their competitive edge on price. However – and this cannot be overstated – these features do make an enormous difference to the usability and functionality of any lathe. The result is that a second-hand but properly-specified British, American or European machine can be worth as much as, and sometimes more, than a new Far-Eastern example. The well-known maxim: "Regrets about the low-quality last far, far longer than the celebrations over the low price" applies especially well to machine tools. An expensive, well-made lathe will far more pleasant to use, have increased versatility and eventually prove much easier to sell – while also recouping a greater percentage of its purchase price. Surprisingly, spares and accessories for the older English machines are often easier to find as well: many are still supported by their makers, there are third-party companies specialising in their manufacture and lots of bits on eBay. Incidentally, in years gone by, makers and distributors would prepare special "show-finish" machines to attract the more gullible buyer’s attention in showrooms, trade fairs, exhibitions and model-engineering shows. Fortunately, the present incumbents of the trade appear not to appreciate this little trick, or perhaps they lack the energy to do it; but just in case they wise-up, beware.

I'm not convinced this is an unbiased and up-to-date analysis. Certainly, for what I do and need, Chinese equipment, warts and all, has proved entirely serviceable. Should be no surprise that Chinese kit costing less than 80% of a new western equivalent won't be as well finished or specified.

Worse, it is a mistake in engineering to pursue quality rather than value for money and fitness for purpose. "Regrets about the low-quality last far, far longer than the celebrations over the low price" is the sort of advice that's bankrupted many a company. Ask any accountant what he thinks of certain engineers and their tendency to gold-plate requirements!

I don't mind people spending money how they like. But I do object to people telling beginners that Far Eastern machines are seriously inferior. Doing so puts newcomers off joining the hobby when there's a good chance they'd do well enough with foreign kit, or at least learn to make their own minds up.

Dave

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 29/11/2018 17:50:51:

lathes.co.uk does cover Chinese lathes. They are given stick in the Beginners Guide. It says:

The essence of that was written in 2000…

web.archive.org/web/20000304173329/http://www.lathes.co.uk/page2.html

 

Edited By Neil Wyatt on 29/11/2018 18:13:03

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 29/11/2018 17:50:51:

…

I don't mind people spending money how they like. But I do object to people telling beginners that Far Eastern machines are seriously inferior. Doing so puts newcomers off joining the hobby when there's a good chance they'd do well enough with foreign kit, or at least learn to make their own minds up.

Dave

Agreed. There might have been a time when there was some truth in it, but it has now become a tired and increasingly false nostalgic and nationalistic mantra.

Many of the Far Eastern machines work well and accurately, permit inventiveness in their use, and allow the building of very successful and attractive projects.

Edited By Mick B1 on 29/11/2018 22:21:40

[Nick Taylor 2Participant @nicktaylor2]

The problem with the Chinese imports is that the quality is so inconsistent, the domestic importers are to blame for this as well as the manufacturers. You’re kidding yourselves if you think the UK importers really open up the crates and check every single machine. Also I bet they DO re-sell returned machines, because China certainly won’t take them back.

A friend of mine returned 2 mills to a certain purveyor of imported green machinery before he gave up and asked for a refund. However, I bought a small mill from the same place for work and it’s excellent, a tweak of the gibs and a clean and oil and it’s turning out good parts.

As for a new Myford, I would buy a new connoisseur today… if they were more reasonably priced, say in the £3k range. I don’t think you can buy a finer 7-inch lathe, however you can buy import or used domestic machines with considerably more capacity for the same money which will turn out as good parts as the Myford. You just have to roll the dice and hope you get a good one (the thread about the Warco cross slide from the other day comes to mind; no two faces square to each other and the T-slots different sizes and so close to the edge of the casting it made me cringe looking at it).

Also consider the footprint of a Myford on a stand, it takes up considerably more space than a mini-lathe. In fact, my super7 on the makers stand took up as much space as my Chipmaster… but weighs 500kg less and only has 1/4 of the HP. This is why the stand got sold and the Myford is now on a bench.

In all I think the Chinese machines are to be commended for introducing so many people into the hobby, there must be thousands of these machines in use everyday turning out great models. I’m looking at a mill from Warco, hopefully early next year, but if I could fit a Bridgeport in the garage…

Edited By Nick Taylor 2 on 30/11/2018 09:46:23

[Malcolm HarwoodParticipant @malcolmharwood97364]

Don't know if I am a bit late joining this conversation but I purchased a fully refurbished Myford Super 7 from Myford at Mytholmroyd about 18 months ago.

I specified a 3 phase variable speed motor and control panel but no screw cutting gearbox. I do have the full set of standard change gears if I want it to cut screw threads.

I am very pleased with it. Only reservations would be the very small spindle internal diameter and although you can use as a milling machine it is not best suited to this.

in comparison with the experience i had from the purchase of a Chinese look alike Bridgeport vertical miller ( which was horrendous to start with) I would stick to UK machines anytime.

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

My point was that there are two ways of assessing Myford.

The first is that because they are still around they must be far better than everything else.

The second, which was my point, is that they are still around because they were much better then everything else 40 to 50 years ago, mainly due to a niche market and they multiplied to become the goto lathe for model engineers around the world. The longevity of the brand is because they last well and spares sales could then support the manufacture and sales of mew machines. Put simply if they were not so popular way back when they would probably have stopped production years ago or brought out something new.

My assesment is that the longevity gives a false impression of their standing compared to the rest of the current options. I like them but I would not suggest neccesarily they were the best option or value for someone starting out.

Just an anecdote. Two of us got out Super7's reground back in 2000 ish and delivered them to the works at Nottingham. It happened to be pay day and we couldn't beleive that the workforce were still actually being payed in real money in paper pay packets. It was like stepping back in time.

regards Martin

 

Edited By Martin Kyte on 03/12/2018 13:35:22

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Posted by Martin Kyte on 03/12/2018 13:34:28:

My point was that there are two ways of assessing Myford.

The first is that because they are still around they must be far better than everything else.

The second, which was my point, is that they are still around because they were much better then everything else 40 to 50 years ago, mainly due to a niche market and they multiplied to become the goto lathe for model engineers around the world. The longevity of the brand is because they last well and spares sales could then support the manufacture and sales of mew machines. Put simply if they were not so popular way back when they would probably have stopped production years ago or brought out something new.

My assesment is that the longevity gives a false impression of their standing compared to the rest of the current options. I like them but I would not suggest neccesarily they were the best option or value for someone starting out.

Just an anecdote. Two of us got out Super7's reground back in 2000 ish and delivered them to the works at Nottingham. It happened to be pay day and we couldn't beleive that the workforce were still actually being payed in real money in paper pay packets. It was like stepping back in time.

regards Martin

Edited By Martin Kyte on 03/12/2018 13:35:22

Why's that hard to believe – they'd done the work hadn't they?

Martin.

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Of course they had, but they must have been one of the only blokes still payed in cash. In one sense it was quite nice but it maybe did say something about Myfords as a company. They never really got to grips with a web based spares ordering system either.

regards Martin

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

I went to a Myford open day that coincided with the Midlands show one year. I was shocked at the poor quality of the workplace.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

I last had cash in a brown paper pay packet in 1987!

Neil

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

I'm glad you added the word 'pay'

;o)

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Just shows how we've been conditioned into thinking that paying the bank is the same as paying the person that did the work.

Martin.

[Chris TriceParticipant @christrice43267]

Morgan Cars are still doing healthy business, and couldn't be described as state of the art. Ladder chassis (flexible), not very weather proof, plywood floors etc. Myford are no different. They'll keep being made all the time there's a demand. Why buy a Caterham 7 when there's a more reliable, practical 4 seat Honda saloon available for half the price? Or a Harley Davidson when practically any Japanese bike will knock spots off them? People desire what they desire and as an advertising exec will tell you, the decision to buy a personal toy is 90% emotional. Unless Myford then or now were planning on becoming an industrial giant in the machinery world (which would take as much investment as starting from scratch), there is nothing wrong with continuing to produce lathes at a rate that their current manufacturing capacity allows. Sometimes it's OK for an acorn to grow into a small healthy oak rather than grow bigger than the environs will support. As much as some people might like to take a dig at Myford, I doubt there were many people "happy" to see them close and let a well known brand name be assigned to history. I like my Super 7. It's a high end spec machine with DRO and all the other bits and pieces that make it a pleasure to use. Do I skim eBay looking at Boxfords, Schaublins, Maximats and even (horror of horrors) fat eastern machines? Yes, but there is also something comforting about the simplicity of the Myford. Anything and everything is easy to get to. There is nothing overly daunting for a new owner to attempt to fix or adjust. Confidence in its construction quality and spares is high. At a cost maybe, but some value that more highly than stories of gritty casting sand in evidence, distorted cross slides, iffy speed control boards, misaligned headstocks, plastic gears, X Y Z axis not square etc.

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