Amateurs

[Donald WittmannParticipant @donaldwittmann92536]

Thanks, Stewart and Ian,

I am not a model engineer. It certainly looks like I have put the ball up on the slates people on here seem to have a problem understanding that I am not

trying to belittle model engineers but I must be missing some point here. And for another poster YES I am familiar with the work of Ms Hill, that is my point I could not imagine her giving out crap advice could you? unlike many others, not just here but on other forums.

I have certainly no need to ask advice from any forum but if I myself was asked then I would certainly give the best I could [even if it did mean causing the fur to fly]

Regards,

Donald.

PS to the other Donald, it’s Wittman

[Gordon WParticipant @gordonw]

Mr. D Wittman;- it must be good to know everything, and never need to ask advice. I was an apprentice eng. many years ago, then a design draughtsman. My chinese lathe is pretty good, but I am constantly having to invent non standard m/cing methods, and asking questions, often on this forum. When designing it is as well to keep in mind how it will be made, and if necessary, redesign so it can be made with what you’ve got. My postings often finish the thread, I hope this one does.

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Posted by Donald Wittman on 24/03/2011 10:25:05:

John Stevenson,

If you read my post I said MORSE TAPER not a steep taper like your photo.

Donald.

 

 

Nice sidestep

 

John S. Who’s not Chinese

[chris stephensParticipant @chrisstephens63393]

Hi Donald,

I am beginning to think that you are not the to$$er that I first took you to be, I am coming around to the thought that you are merely being a mischievous little imp. I find it hard to believe that someone with such a limited attitude, as you profess to have, was found to be useful in industry.

Logically then, you must be taking the p*ss at our expense, this is unfair and unjustified. An amateur has many more skills than a production turner could dream off and if he works to tighter tolerances, than a professional, it is because he can. In industry tolerances are sloppy to make sure that the part fits with another one made by some other bored clock watcher. Also, as we know precision takes more time than hammer and bodge’m methods. An amateur should not be compared with a production turner but more should be compared to, say, a Master Gunsmith, where every part he makes is custom made and hand finished to the highest level of fit and finish. The difference is hand-crafted against production line, “London Best” versus cheap Russian, or for car version, Rolls v. Mini. Or at least when “Rolls” meant something.

 

If there is only one way to do a job, that way must be the most efficient way. As for your example of Morse taper turning, in industry the most efficient, and might even in fact be the only way, would be CNC. Off setting the tailstock way is far too slow. Taper turning attachment comes second best to CNC, but let us not forget the Skiving tool.

 

To take you up on the dual DTI device on another forum, if it the one I am thinking of, I believe the chap to be a very competent and experienced machinist, I seem to recall he is former RR but I could be wrong. He is always looking for a better way to do things than the way he was taught. If you regard your teachers to be infallible, you are heading down the path to fanaticism, just look where it got us with suicide bombers. Open your eyes and try to take in advice for more experienced, yes even amateurs, you don’t have to slavishly follow but you might just learn something! Unless of course you are the Imp in the first paragraph, in which case just sit back and continue your laughing fit.

 

To paraphrase an old saying “those that can do, those that can’t complain” Prove me wrong!

chriStephens

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Posted by chris stephens on 24/03/2011 12:07:54:

 

To paraphrase an old saying “those that can do, those that can’t complain” Prove me wrong!

chriStephens

 

 

It actually “If you can do it, then do it, if you can’t do it, then throw chalk at it ”

 

John S.

[Tony JeffreeParticipant @tonyjeffree56510]

Posted by Donald Wittman on 24/03/2011 10:25:05:

If you read my post I said MORSE TAPER not a steep taper like your photo.

I have never had a problem finding a centre lathe job although I am equally at ease with CNC. as for bulls**t well you would know more about that than me.

I only joined the forum yesterday and have been constantly bombarded with flak.

If that’s what you get for speaking your mind then bring it on.

by the way your not Chinese are you?

Donald.

 

Donald –

 

If you are “equally at ease with CNC” then I’m sure you will be aware that commercial tooling with Morse tapers (or any other tapers for that matter) are not machined by offsetting the tailstock these days, and have not been manufactured that way for many years. So if the only “proper” way to machine a MT is by ofsetting the tailstock, I presume you must believe the manufacturers have all got it wrong moving to CNC & should immediately revert to using manual machines with offset tailstocks?

 

You don’t have an ancestor by the name of Ludd by any chance?

 

Regards,

Tony

[Geoff TheasbyParticipant @geofftheasby]

Mr Wittman,

 

I am happy to describe myself as an amateur, I took up model engineering when I retired, having wanted to do it for decades, having been a mere clerical worker.

I bought a second-hand Unimat 3, which appears to be capable of much more accurate work than I can produce on it, with my self-taught skills.

I can’t afford a new Myford, and I haven’t the space for one anyway, so I am contemplating buying a Chinese Mini-Lathe which should last me until I die, plus a similar milling machine. I expect to have loads of fun with them, making rattly little models whilst improving my machining skills over the years.

I have received nothing but help and understanding from my fellow forum users, plus a good-natured attitude, and the same from the members of the model engineering club I joined, despite my often silly questions.

 

I will never achieve the standards of fine engineering that I see all the time, but I am willing to learn, and that is the crux of the matter.

 

Regards

Geoff Theasby

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mgjParticipant @mgj]

Well God bless the Chinese – and I never thought to hear myself say that.

 

I have a Myford – its a lovely machine, but it is quite small. For the cost of a darned good second hand Myford I was able to buy a 6×36 Harrison chinese copy, and a big (by modelling standards) Warco mill. So where before I would have been forced into making 2″ traction engines or 5″ locos, now I can build 3 and 4″ engines for a fraction of the capital cost of such a set up say 7-10 years ago.

 

The chinamen have limitations, that I accept, – they are not professional grade production equipment. However they are both very accurate, and will see me out .

 

Sure when I win the lottery it will be a brand new Harrison and a brand new Bridgeport too, and the 3 phase to run them.

 

But until then the Chinese have transformed model engineering for all of us. With their lathes, mills and good enough tooling.

Edited By mgj on 24/03/2011 13:06:45

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Hi All,

 

The last MT3 taper I made was by using Harold Halls method of offsetting the top slide and using that to cut the taper. I had to move the cross slide on each cut as I could only get about 2/3 sf the necessary movement of the toolpost.

 

It didn’t really take very long to do on my old Boxford. When thought it finished I applied engineers blue and tested it in the Milling Machine spindle. I had to use the drawbar and a tap from a copper hammer to remove it and most of the blue was gone, indicating a good fit. In fact I tested it using a 12mm nd mill side cutting steel with drawbar slightly loose and there was not problem with it coming loose. It’s a real pain to know that I now have to go and make a new MT3 because I didn’t use the correct method. Doh!

 

When I finally moved into engineering design I was always told that it was the end product that mattered, not the path to get there. Now I know better, thanks Donald.

________________________________________________________________

Hi John,

 

I may be annoying, and sometimes I set out to be controversial to raise debate, but at least I’m, often positive and helpful as many of the members know. If I can offer advice and help I always offer, otherwise I shut up and read. By the way Geoff I wasn’t trying to be rude to you on an earlier post it was just my clumsy way of trying to say something and was not aimed at you personally, if it caused any offence I apologise.

 

Best regards,

 

Terry

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Hi All,

 

Is it just me or is it possible that Mr Wittman (what a misnomer) can hand out unwarranted, vitriolic and unnecessary criticism, but can’t take it. What does he expect after the rubbish he wrote in his initial posting?

 

As secveral of us have asked, show us some of your work please Mr Wittman.

 

Best regards

 

T

[chris stephensParticipant @chrisstephens63393]

Hi Terry,

Would it be very very childish and immature to put an extra “T” at the beginning of his name?

chriStephens

Edited By chris stephens on 24/03/2011 15:15:51

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Posted by chris stephens on 24/03/2011 15:15:09:

Hi Terry,

Would it be very very childish and immature to put an extra “T” at the beginning of his name?

chriStephens

Edited By chris stephens on 24/03/2011 15:15:51

Hi Chris,

 

Yes very, but fair.  Some might even go as far as exchanging the first vowel for the first one of the alphabet at the same time, but I certainly wouldn’t, Far too adolescent.

 

regards

 

T 

Edited By Terryd on 24/03/2011 16:04:48

[GoCreateParticipant @gocreate]

This post has been an education, what have I learnt?

1. There are several correct ways to turn a morse taper dependent upon your equipment to hand (or maybe even just whatever method you fancy having a go at to develop your skills).

2. This (maybe not all) production turner has such a narrow breadth of experience and narrow mindedness he has little to offer the broader challenges of the amateur model engineer who seeks alternatives and innovations. I think Harold Hall must be a man who seeks alternatives and innovations to the so called correct way and does it very successfully.

3. Never ask for the correct way, it’s too limiting, Ask what ways are there.

Thanks for the education
Nigel

Edited By tractionengine42 on 24/03/2011 16:29:51

Edited By tractionengine42 on 24/03/2011 16:40:02

[chris stephensParticipant @chrisstephens63393]

Hi Guys,

What we have learnt, but some of us knew already, there is no correct way only the best way. The “best” way is the one that can be used with the equipment to hand and the skill level achieved. Remembering also that the most important tool/asset any of us have is the one between of ears and it should not be used just to store rules.

 

Some of us (perhaps the majority of us) are of the “make do and mend” generation, not the go out and buy generation. Perhaps we could add to that another make so it becomes Make or make-do and mend. To make the above relevant, if we haven’t got CNC, a taper turning attachment or a skiving tool, we will just have to make do with the top slide if we want to make a taper.

chriStephens

PS (edit) Isn’t this all jolly fun? 

Edited By chris stephens on 24/03/2011 17:01:29

[mgjParticipant @mgj]

Well – I don’t know that there is a correct way to turn a morse taper. I have never yet, and I did do a batch of soft tapers for tooling in both 2 and 3 MT. Yes they were good enough, yes they were darned close, yes they were set up on a taper turning attachment all calcuated up with trigonometry and DTIs. They should have been the bees knees.

 

But no they were not exact. Some seemed exact because they were slightly to large at thee front, but if one actually measured very carefuly they were not dead right – which is unfortunate with a taper, because it won’t lock that well and you only get line contact at one point. OK for say a tapping guide, but if you want a mandrell for mounitng tE gear blanks its a bit of dead loss.

So my answer to morse tapers – buy them from Chronos, Arc Trade etc. . They work properly and they aren’t expensive and my time is more valuable than the hassle. I suppose I could have lapped then in a hardend 1″ capstan cartridge, but by then i had learned the error of my ways and plastic had come to the rescue..

So much for morse tapers. And professionalism.

[Jeff DaymanParticipant @jeffdayman43397]

Glad to see some constructive discussion about MT’s and how to make or buy them, rather than running down amateurism as troll OP started with.

 

JD

[Raymond AndersonParticipant @raymondanderson34407]

Donald,

With me not being a machinist [I’m a bricklayer] I find these forums very useful

in pursuit of my hobby note that I used the word hobby, Although my brother [who incidentally is a foreman turner] he usually keeps me right. In fact if you would give people a chance then you would see that guys with more experience than me really have a lot to offer. Having said that there was a couple of posts on some other like forum that advocated adjusting the camlok studs on a chuck to get it to run true [slacken some and tighten the others I asked the brother about that and he informed me that such a move was a no,no Then there was another that turned the register on his backplate about 0.5mmØ less than his chuck register and used it as a sort of settrue again I was informed no,no.

In regard to the Chinese lathes that you so evidently dislike I purchased from new in 2000or 2001 a Warco GH750 centre lathe and it is still working a treat I have only ever had to replace a light bulb and print out new markings for the front panel as coolant had taken it’s toll on them. I did straight away replace the 240v single phase motor with a 240v 3 phase 3Hp Siemens unit and a Eurotherm 650vfd drive. and the machine is still a treat to use and far more accurate than me. I also could not resist the purchase of a lathe that you would surely approve of a Dean Smith and Grace 17t

Sorry for going on a bit but you really must give folks a chance.

Raymond.

[chris stephensParticipant @chrisstephens63393]

Hi MGJ,

Of course you go out and buy Morse tapers, I reckon I have bought over 200 of them so far, life is indeed too short, but for a one off special I will make one.

 

Hi Raymond,

On the subject of making the register slightly small and “bump truing” the chuck, I quote none better than GHT as my example of it being OK to do. So if you want to, go ahead and do it. It may not be “correct” in Donald’s eyes either but expediency, and GHT, out-ranks him. I would however agree with your brother on playing around with the tension on cam locks, thereby leads the way to ruin.

chriStephens

[Raymond AndersonParticipant @raymondanderson34407]

Thanks Chris, The brother has heard of bump true but has never had to do it and I have both my chucks 1 on the chinaman lathe and, the other much heavier chuck on the DSG running bang on but it is good to know about bump true for future reference.

God knows what would happen if a chuck flew off because of messing about with the camloks my guess is it would not be a pretty sight., the part would probably be ruined!

Regards,

Raymond.

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

He’s got this place buzzin’ !!

 

Martin.

[Donald WittmannParticipant @donaldwittmann92536]

Tony,

No I do not have a relation called Ludd but I did have one called Michael [before my time]who was quite famous but no Nedd i’m afraid. I stick with my observations and nothing on here has changed my view.

Raymond, DSG is a superb machine and at least you have brother who is qualified to advise you. And it does not surprise me about the fool with the camloks. Thats the whole point of my argument about bad advise. If someone followed that advise and an accident happened where would we be then? although some on these forums would have you believe such an occurence would not happen.

Such people should stick to making toys they would be far less dangerous.

Donald.

[Jeff DaymanParticipant @jeffdayman43397]

Was your relation Michael Wittman by any chance a tank commander in the mid 1940’s?

 

JD

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, well if someone gave a bad or dangerous advice on here, I dare say there would be enough postings to correct that advice to the persons giving it and to those it was given to.

 

I does not matter how “perfect” or now correct we may think we are, in the end we will all be exactly on the same level. We are all only here for a brief time and we will all get recycled one way or another, no matter what you believe.

 

For someone who will never needs advice, may never be asked to give it. I could go on but that would involve politics, which I don’t wish to do on here.

 

Regards Nick.

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Lets not beat about the bush, I don’t do this PC crap.

  

John S.

 

PS

20:45 and counting

Edited By John Stevenson on 24/03/2011 20:46:39

Edited By David Clark 1 on 25/03/2011 11:30:22

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi John,

 

Regards Nick

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