Hi Andy

I believe tool room machines are built to a high degree of precision with better bearings etc.

That's all well and good if it's not worn set up properly and used by someone capable of precision work (which I'm not).

I would not think it worth your while finding a toolroom lathe just for extra capacity.

And do you really need to turn items at that length? Just may be as a one off wouldn't justify me taking up shop room.

A decent lathe is supposedly the only machine capable of making another lathe. So capability of the machine isn't the issue, just like ne it's the capability if the operator.

Dobt fet me wrong I'd love taper turning, hydraulic copying, auto everything but they are just bells and whistles on the basics.

Just my opinion, other opinions are available,terms and conditions apply.

Mick

A really good high precision lathe will be a thing of which to be proud. But will the extra accessories that YOU may need (Faceplate, Steadies etc ) be available? No point in paying more for facilities that you will never need, and be short of ones that you do.

That IF it is still in good condition. If worn out and abused it will be a source of frustration and a black hole of time and money. An unreliable Bentley is less use than a new Ford Ka.

(A friend has just disposed of his lathe. In all the years that he had it, he never used the Collet set or the Taper Tuning Attachment that came with it! )

I rarely use the all extras that came with my lathe, which is a good machine, but not a Toolroom machine. It does all that i have wanted so far. Maybe i should widen my horizons?

Howard

Andy,

Given the slightest excuse I bang on endlessly about the need to look at condition rather than descriptions and brand-names. Smart & Brown made good lathes, but they can and do end up as scrap.

A new tool-room lathe would hold better tolerances than relatives destined for production. May include better materials, more expensive bearings, and other extras plus a certain delicacy. Designed for precision work, not hacking metal. Generally a desirable object but more than needed in the average workshop and likely to bump the price up.

BUT! Is a tool-room lathe still in tool-room condition? Before CNC caused large numbers of manual machines to be put on the market in good condition, the advice was to take great care buying ex-industrial machines. It was common for machines to be worked until they were 'Beyond Economic Repair', and tool-room equipment was far from immune:

Stage 1: new tool-room lathe installed in tool-room and carefully maintained.

Stage 2: tool-room lathe becomes slightly worn and is transferred to less demanding shop-floor work, and thrashed.

Stage 3: beaten up tool-room lathe can't meet production targets and is transferred to rough duty like removing rust in a lean-to out back.

Stage 4: Stored in a damp out-house for 20 years…

Today, the chance of getting an ex-industrial machine in good condition is much higher. If you find a good one, hurrah! If not, worry about the cost of spares compared with "lesser" machines like Harrison etc, themselves 'reassuringly expensive' in the parts department!

Your WM180 experience is valuable in that it gives you a good idea what to look for in a second-hand machine; Enough to see a tool-room lathe is functional, but probably not enough to prove it is working to tool-room specifications. Even so, if the very high standards of the tool-room don't matter and the price is right, go for it.

Dave

Andy, what Dave has just said is spot on.

I served my time and spent early years on toolroom lathes such as Harginge, Monarch, DSG, Lorch to name but a few. In those days very few lathes had DRO fitted so good accurate dials etc were a bonus and in the main expectation

When in good condition they ooze with quality and are a joy to use. They do achieve very high precision. As they wear then not so much. They however have their limitations in that not many have gap beds, tailstocks on lathes such as Hardinge and very heavy, the swing over bed is not usually great.

I thought about getting my own Hardinge as I loved them along with the Monarcs, but in the end settled for a good used example of the Harrisom M300. I am so glad i did as with or without the DRO I fitted it has great capacity, facilitated with the removable gap bed, has a great speed range supplented with the inverter if required ( but not act necessary ). It is as accurate as ever i would want.

Edited By MalcB on 18/03/2019 11:43:20

Edited By MalcB on 18/03/2019 11:57:51

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The once-lovely Habegger, that Karl is working to restore, being a clear demonstration: **LINK**

https://www.model-engineer.co.uk/albums/member_photo.asp?a=50107&p=824295

MichaelG.

Continuing SOD's list:
Stage 5: lathe bought off grieving widow for peanuts by garage trader and flogged on ebay as immaculate barn find.
Stage 6: bought by 'expert' who knows it was described as toolroom lathe on Tony's site. After asking for advice on this forum about why it has a lever on the front of the hanging down bit the current 'toolmaker' owner cleans off the rusty bed with an angle grinder and repaints it.
Stage 7: The fully restored reground toolroom lathe is back on ebay at the same price it was sold for 50 years ago.

Genuine tooroom lathes are not necessarily better equipped. For example the CVA QCGB still needs a gear train change halfway through the commonly used range ( 22tpi I think) because in a toolroom the extra time doesn't matter like it would in production. Meanwhile the M300 with its highly convenient dual metric /imperial QCGB cannot be described as toolroom because the metric threads are all approximations.

The OP started by mentioning Smart & Brown. Their big 1024 was a toolroom lathe but the little Boxford sized Sabel was just a small parts and school lathe.
In a similar vein to this thread a lathe is not as sometimes advertised a watchmaker's lathe just because it is smallish, nor in the 'states a gunsmiths lathe just because the previous owner is doing time for modifying weapons.

Yes. Pretty much anyone can call their lathe a toolroom lathe and who's to say? Recently saw a Myfrod Connoisseur listed for sale on another site as a "toolroom lathe". They'd be few and far between in toolrooms both now and back in the day.

Interesting point in the lathes.co.uk article on the Gromatic saying that a toolroom lathe is usually defined as, among other things, one where the bed width is more than double the spindle height above the bed. This makes a wide-based triangle for cutting forces to be spread over, giving good stability.

The opposite of most of today's home hobby lathes that always look to me like the spindle is set too high for the width of the bed, resulting in very high carriage, cross slide and top slide assemblies that look like they are rather precariously perched up there to get the height. Good enough for hobby use as they say but a bit unstable for professional toolroom use I suppose.

The other thing to bear in mind with the larger "toolroom" lathes is the hassle of transporting them home and then lifting them into position in your workshop. A hobby bench lathe, be it Warco, Myford or Boxford etc, can usually be lifted around by two blokes out of the back of a hatchback car, even if you have to remove a few heavy items like motor, chuck etc.

They never called any of their machines "toolroom" or tried to pass them off as such it was just that the company was called "The Engineers Tool Room" note the space and I have never considered what I bought from then a" toolroom" machine.

Edited By JasonB on 19/03/2019 07:21:54