clamping a cone

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clamping a cone

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  • #191005
    pgk pgk
    Participant
      @pgkpgk17461

      My problem…An ancient 5-gang mower and parts may not be available. One end of the rear track rod has come adrift due to a broken thread section.

      The part is a ball joint in it;s housing then a conical section with the thread in the end of the cone. the cone sits in its mating hole and is held by a nut to the broken thread.

      I'm not sure if the threaded section is all one part or a stud into the end of the cone. It really looks one piece. The options I've come up with since there's 2 threads still showing is to try an stick weld a nut to the end of the thread (the only welder i have). And if that fails or it is one piece then find a way of mountng the cone ito my mill vice, drill out and retap/stud or helicoil.

      So how to get this vertical? the concial section is about an inch long so not really much length to cope with measuring errors on two points. the thin end (guesstimated) about 1/2 inch.

      If theres a sneaky way of measuring the angle then perhaps i can bore a conical hole to mate with it through a rectangular block, split and clamp so it's held vertical for the drilling task?

      How about 2 different size washers and measure their spacing and ID's? If the washers are equal thickness.

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      #7634
      pgk pgk
      Participant
        @pgkpgk17461
        #191008
        wheeltapper
        Participant
          @wheeltapper

          deleted

          Edited By wheeltapper on 23/05/2015 17:17:14

          #191009
          Bowber
          Participant
            @bowber

            I wouldn't get to far into it, a block of soft wood, drill a hole and knock the shaft into it then back into the drill/mill to drill it.
            Or, block of steel or Ali, drill small hole to suit the appropriate part of the taper and then drill another slightly larger hole to suit the larger part of the taper. take it easy with the larger hole and keep checking the fit until you get the taper touching both edges or steps in the holes (the top and the step created by the transition from large to small hole), slit it and then mount in vice on drill/mill.

            Personally I'd just put it in the vice and do it by eye using a hand drill

            Steve

            #191017
            Michael Gilligan
            Participant
              @michaelgilligan61133

              Steve's second method looks good … I would also consider filling the space with an epoxy putty [or maybe hot melt glue?], or Wood's Metal , so as to get full area contact.

              MichaelG.

              #191025
              Ian P
              Participant
                @ianp
                Posted by pgk pgk on 23/05/2015 16:36:09:

                My problem…An ancient 5-gang mower and parts may not be available. One end of the rear track rod has come adrift due to a broken thread section.

                The part is a ball joint in it;s housing then a conical section with the thread in the end of the cone. the cone sits in its mating hole and is held by a nut to the broken thread.

                I'm not sure if the threaded section is all one part or a stud into the end of the cone. It really looks one piece. The options I've come up with since there's 2 threads still showing is to try an stick weld a nut to the end of the thread (the only welder i have). And if that fails or it is one piece then find a way of mountng the cone ito my mill vice, drill out and retap/stud or helicoil.

                You dont say how ancient the ancient part is but the description very accurately matches a typical 'track rod end' ball joint.

                Is the ball removable from its housing? if its swaged or rivetted a sealed assembly then the chances of being able to drill and tap it are slim. The threaded section is integral with the ball stem and whilst its not rock hard the part is pretty tough and I suspect the ball will just rotate with the drilling torque.

                Really old track rod ends may have been adjustable or dismantleable in which case you could anneal the stem but there are a myriad of track rod ends and they are very low cost items so it probably not worth going to a lot of trouble.

                Ian P

                #191035
                Bazyle
                Participant
                  @bazyle

                  I rather doubt they made the ball joint specially for the mower. Therefore it could well be from a common small vehicle or the same age. eg mini. amateur welding might be a problem as track rods are quite hightly stressed even in mowers.,

                  Photos would help.

                  Funny this thread should come up today as I have just been researching Ransomes gang mower adjusters having mown the outfield this evening with one unit not contributing owing to lack of maintenance.
                  Anyone know the recomended oil change interval for a Fergie? I think it may be due its first one!

                  #191038
                  pgk pgk
                  Participant
                    @pgkpgk17461
                    Posted by Ian Phillips on 23/05/2015 20:46:04:

                    You dont say how ancient the ancient part is but the description very accurately matches a typical 'track rod end' ball joint.

                    Is the ball removable from its housing? if its swaged or rivetted a sealed assembly then the chances of being able to drill and tap it are slim. The threaded section is integral with the ball stem and whilst its not rock hard the part is pretty tough and I suspect the ball will just rotate with the drilling torque.

                    Really old track rod ends may have been adjustable or dismantleable in which case you could anneal the stem but there are a myriad of track rod ends and they are very low cost items so it probably not worth going to a lot of trouble.

                    Ian P

                    It is a track rod end. About 25yrs old US origin but actually parts may be available with some hassle. The ball housing looks to be two parts pressed into a circular chamber that has the threaded stem that adjusts into the rod itself (I hope that makes sense) I see no way of getting a good enough grip with any sort of puller.. the flanges of the pressed in sections are tight against the central section.

                    I've finally managed to get it off the track rod itself.. (which also needs straightening) And I think I've figured how to hold it for an attempt at drilling tomorrow. I found two bits of squared scrap with 8mm slots. Set vertically each side of the tapered section I get 4 contact points that trap the taper without needing to hold onto the housing.

                    While in reality I'll probably eyeball the alignment of the drill it would be possible to cut/file progressive tapers on those slots and keep test fitting until they both sat snug with the same angle.

                    If I have to try finding a replacement then I suppose a temporary rod with straight washers and bolts through the plates with the female tapers would get the mower useable for the time being. Steering is by a ram to one wheel with the track rod pairing both.

                    #191047
                    Ian P
                    Participant
                      @ianp

                      A track rod joint 25 years old on US equipment will almost certainly have UN threads. If you measure the diameter and pitch of both threads I am sure you could easily obtain a new joint from a motor factor or online.

                      As Bazyle said these can be quite highly stressed, OK a failure might have quite benign results, but if it happens on a roadside verge or on a pondside it might not be funny.

                      Ian P

                      #191061
                      pgk pgk
                      Participant
                        @pgkpgk17461

                        This mower is really only of scrap value and more a playtime project.. though if I can get it cutting well enough it'd save me a load of time compared to my present ride-on for the amount of 3+ acres of lawn i have.

                        I appreciate the cautious advice and warnings but it's not going to be near any roads or verges. Trees will be a bigger hazard and access around my ponds means crawling speed.

                        I;ve spent more on filters and lubricants than the machine cost and it has a lot of other issues I may need help with to slowly tidy it up.

                        I just nipped out to the shed pre-brekkie and ran a file over the broken thread end. It takes a file fine so hopefully will be drillable. I'm still new enough at this that i didn't think to test that yesterday

                        #191063
                        Bob Brown 1
                        Participant
                          @bobbrown1

                          Why not replace the track rod end with an off the shelf rod end?

                          Bob

                          #191070
                          Ian S C
                          Participant
                            @iansc

                            Or even replace with one from the wreckers yard.

                            Ian S C

                            #191073
                            Bazyle
                            Participant
                              @bazyle

                              I was thinking you must be looking after the village cricket ground! I hope you are planning your own scenic railway as your garden is bigger than out tracksite.

                              #191096
                              pgk pgk
                              Participant
                                @pgkpgk17461

                                I own a small hobby farm in very rural Wales.. so finding stuff can be challenging. The gardens are extensive (let alone the actual meadows and woodlands)

                                This rod end issue became more curious. I set it up in the mill to skim the broken thread flat before drilling.. had a happy accident when i set the rough cut endmill a tad low and caught the side of one remaining thread.. when the stud spun out! I had just one same thread bolt in my 'old bolt' box.. so made a temorary repair to find that the track rod end doesn't sit right in the taper anyway and is different to the rod end on the other end – so a previous gash repair.

                                I wasn't too suprised to find my fix failed just at the end of cutting the lawns.

                                I've tried to remove the opposite rod end but it won't tap out. Access to it is through a mess of hydraulic hoses and it'd be challenging to strip all that out of the way. the lazy answer is scrounge up a proper rod end from a dealer for this mower if parts can be sourced – although I may go for a second fix redrilling the old threads out to a larger size. This side is (I guess) a 5/16 thead compared to the other side at 7/16. And the gash bolt I used wasn't high tensile. I;ve got some high tensile M10's about for a second temp fix…

                                #191108
                                Bazyle
                                Participant
                                  @bazyle

                                  My mower repair got as far as removing the adjusters in the rain (cricket cancelled so no tea sad&nbsp and from the spare unit and finding two potentially servicable ones. Heated one up in the woodstove to free it. Tomorrow will rebuild with a bucket of grease. Very poor design not suitable to be left out in the rain.

                                  #191117
                                  Robert Dodds
                                  Participant
                                    @robertdodds43397

                                    pgk,

                                    I've just seen a new track rod end for under 7 pounds on mister-auto.co.uk. I'm not sure if it would fit your mower but there are likely to be other variants. It is probable that it is a standard taper if it looks like a regular track rod end. At 7 pounds each is it not worth buying 2 (if you can get one to fit OK) and then use a length of threaded rod (the sort Screwfix sell by the metre length) and replace the whole lot for 20 quid or so.
                                    The sample I looked at was a 1980 Ford Cortina 1.3 but I think a phone call to any of the Auto wholesale traders would get you some useful cheap parts.

                                    Bob D

                                    #191120
                                    Bowber
                                    Participant
                                      @bowber

                                      We use rose joints instead, you can get plenty of sizes on Ebay or other online sellers in both male and female thread, metric and imerial and left and right hand.

                                      Steve

                                      #191122
                                      pgk pgk
                                      Participant
                                        @pgkpgk17461

                                        Since the taper on the rod end that failed looks wrong.. to me that implies a range of tapers available. Finding a way of measuring it to order a cheapo replacement might be difficult. And of course it needs to have the correct thread to fit the tie bar. It's not a simple case of ordering by car make or model. So i may have to go via a dealer in this brand mower which will be expensive (all the parts i can find listed are).

                                        My scrappy mate is popping by tomorrow. he often suprises me with strange skills. Well see what two heads can come up with.

                                        (it cost me a few beers in the pub at lunchtime and some of the afternoon was sleeping them off…)

                                        #191145
                                        Bob Brown 1
                                        Participant
                                          @bobbrown1

                                          Steve,

                                          That's what I said, "Rose" is a trade name bit like calling a vacuum cleaner a Hoover.

                                          There are a lot of different track rod ends different threads and different tapers and it can be very tricky to sort a replacement if you do not know where it originates.

                                          Bob

                                          #191185
                                          pgk pgk
                                          Participant
                                            @pgkpgk17461

                                            Purists will doubtless be appalled by the current fix, Scarppy turned up with a rod end that did happen to have the same thread at the tie bar and a larger diameter thread under the taper. However the taper was too fat. Under his pursuasion I hand ground and filed the taper – eyeballed to match the opposite side.. no fancy measurments and one go with assessing it with a felt marker. Then a happy accident when we couldn't find a nut to fit. I dug out the wrong die to recut the thread… I'd meant to grab an m10 coarse but used the m10 x1.25 which ran down the thread one- fingered. Benefit of hindsight this was a 20 turn american thread or may have been a metric fine. Retapping an M10 nut to 1.25 pitch then worked with a few washers to really pull the taper down and it does feel solid in the female. Time will tell but this thing is hardly a racing car.

                                            It really is salvaged scrap and the cutter blades are worn beyond further adjustment. It does still cut but will clog easily.

                                            Next bit of madness we intend to attempt is to grind out the welds holding the blades in the cutter spools and replace them. New cutter units at £250 + vat would be silly, Scrappy is on the scent of suitable steel and something to make a couple of robust benders with to put the twists in the new steel.

                                            #191198
                                            Bazyle
                                            Participant
                                              @bazyle

                                              You mighe find a used cutter spool cut to length will be easier.

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