magnetic/colloidal clutch

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magnetic/colloidal clutch

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  • #163899
    Robin teslar
    Participant
      @robinteslar

      Has anyone made/experimented with the above, you can make your own medium cheaply and mix with si oil. The mix has the property similar to cornflour. Move it slowly and it slips, move it quickly it locks up. It can also be actuated with an external ring magnet

      Sure its all been done before

      be glad to exchange results

      Robin

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      #23499
      Robin teslar
      Participant
        @robinteslar

        Using powdered iron colloid as a variable slip clutch

        #164045
        Brian Wood
        Participant
          @brianwood45127

          Hello Robin,

          I had completely forgotten about that approach; couplings like that were incorporated into spin dryer motor drives years ago and I recall thinking then how clever the idea was.

          You are quite right about the action, the working medium is thixatropic, rather akin to stiff starch paste as you say and it will flow like mud until agitated.

          And I am sure it could be resurrected into a machine drive clutch of some sort, with or without magnetic 'switching'

          Regards

          Brian

          #164055
          nigel jones 5
          Participant
            @nigeljones5

            Viscous couplings – still used lots!

            #164062
            Robin teslar
            Participant
              @robinteslar
              Posted by fizzy on 20/09/2014 10:32:41:

              Viscous couplings – still used lots!

              Yes indeed, notably on car cooling fans, but I was surprised to discover that these are on/off operated from a bimetallic spring sensing radiator air flow temperature and controlling fluid in/out of the plates. I originally thought that these contained a thixo fluid that decreased viscosity with increasing torque/fan speed. This is the opposite of what a clutch is required to do.

              #164063
              Robin teslar
              Participant
                @robinteslar
                Posted by Brian Wood on 20/09/2014 09:51:53:

                Hello Robin,

                I had completely forgotten about that approach; couplings like that were incorporated into spin dryer motor drives years ago and I recall thinking then how clever the idea was.

                You are quite right about the action, the working medium is thixatropic, rather akin to stiff starch paste as you say and it will flow like mud until agitated.

                And I am sure it could be resurrected into a machine drive clutch of some sort, with or without magnetic 'switching'

                Regards

                Brian

                Yup, magnetic powder clutches have been around long time and very linear torque control much better than dry plate. Can accept a certain amount of continuous slip till hi temp trip

                I was thinking more of the properties of sand/mud mixture (laterite). I found this in africa when it rained. This saturated mud was quite fluid when stirred slowly, but if you tried to stir quickly it locked up and became immovable. Remove the force and reapply slowly and it became fluid again

                Curious

                #164064
                Circlip
                Participant
                  @circlip

                  " couplings like that were incorporated into spin dryer motor drives years ago "

                  Yes, but didn't they use steel shot like the bigger industrial types? Can't remember the name but Sir John will.

                  Regards Ian

                  #164067
                  Brian Wood
                  Participant
                    @brianwood45127

                    Hello Ian,

                    –Yes, but didn't they use steel shot like the bigger industrial types? Can't remember the name but Sir John will–

                    Now that you mention it I recall that as well, I took one to pieces as you do to see what it contained. That was probably 40 years ago now

                    Brian

                    #164071
                    Circlip
                    Participant
                      @circlip

                      " I took one to pieces as you do to see what it contained. "

                      So did me mate, – – – – His wife was really pleased and his life was interesting till she got a new twin tub.

                      Regards Ian.

                      #164072
                      Brian Wood
                      Participant
                        @brianwood45127

                        Ah, I was canny,

                        Ours had failed anyway so I avoided the domestic flak

                        Regards

                        Brian

                        #164073
                        Robin teslar
                        Participant
                          @robinteslar
                          Posted by Brian Wood on 20/09/2014 11:54:38:

                          Ah, I was canny,

                          Ours had failed anyway so I avoided the domestic flak

                          Regards

                          Brian

                          If you took it apart then what was inside it, how did it work

                          #164095
                          Brian Wood
                          Participant
                            @brianwood45127

                            Hello Robin,

                            If I remember correctly it had small steel shot inside, there were no outer magnets. The housing was a pancake shape maybe 3 inches in diameter, perhaps 3/4 inch thick, the inner shaft up to the spin dryer drum was vaned with 4 arms I think.

                            I imagine it worked by gradually working at the shot until the drive became 'solid', it had clearly run hot from the discolouration on the outside of the housing. The drive to the drum was gradual, it used to take maybe 1/2 minute to build up to full speed and the drum was easy to spin round by hand for loading.

                            The washer finally let the unit down which was how it came to me. The 1/2 hp nduction wash motor was cannibalised as a drill motor, that for the spin dryer was integral with this clutch and an awkward shape to utilise so that wasn't used afterwards.

                            Regards

                            Brian.

                            Edited By Brian Wood on 20/09/2014 16:19:46

                            #164101
                            Robin teslar
                            Participant
                              @robinteslar

                              Fascinating Brian, thanx

                              I must try and get hold of an old one?

                              AFAIK the standalone spin dryers were 250W 2 pole, 2800rpm little beauties and you can still buy new ones. front loaders cant match those for water extraction, must get one

                              Isnt it a paradox, Myfordians can fix up their old ladies with DRO and VFD, digital rotary tables etc

                              yet they spend their time maundering amongst old machinery, steam engines, etc

                              Ive got a 1947 Lister I am converting to use vapourising oil made from waste cooking oil – come the revolution

                              I am surrounded by a dozen takeaways btw

                              Cheers

                              Robin

                              PS

                              Have you heard of a friction differential. It was featured on this

                              http://www.microcar.org/carspecs/rodley.html

                              I saw one of these when I was a lad. Made helluva noise and vibration

                              #164111
                              nigel jones 5
                              Participant
                                @nigeljones5

                                high performance cars use them in the lsd and landrover in the freelander center diff…as I recall…

                                #164123
                                Muzzer
                                Participant
                                  @muzzer

                                  I've used dry magnetic powder clutches in the past. They are little more than steel filings held in a small gap between the input and output shafts. A control current in the solenoid coil induces a field across the gap and causes the particles to adhere to each other and to the faces, causing drag. The nice thing about this concept is that the developed torque is proportional to the control current and independent of speed, so they are ideal for wire tensioners and small dynos.

                                  Here's the model from Simplatrol/Lenze that I used on a large wire tensioner, probably the 250mm size. I don't recall how we drove the clutch but the tension feedback was by strain gauge load cell so there must have been a control amplifier somewhere. For simple systems, you can drive the coil directly with a variable power supply. Between the solenoid dissipation and the frictional heat generated, this required the (dotted) finned heatsink to keep the temperatures down but then it would work all day with almost no moving parts. With 80-100Nm of torque available, we were able to mount the wire drum directly on the clutch to keep things simple.

                                  Quite a few vehicles have been fitted with magneto-rheological dampers. The fluid in these possibly behaves as you discuss and its viscosity can be modulated by varying a magnetic field. I've no experience of MR dampers but they must be neater and faster then the electromechanical alternatives with their valves and solenoids

                                  Murray

                                  #164126
                                  Muzzer
                                  Participant
                                    @muzzer

                                    Wikipedia tells me that "Rheology is the study of the flow of matter, primarily in a liquid state". I can relate to that. I assume that The Society of Rheology in Philadelphia is basically a drinking club.

                                    Merry

                                    #164213
                                    Circlip
                                    Participant
                                      @circlip

                                      Brians description of the spin dryer drive is basically correct. a pulley fixed to the pancake or "Doughnut" coupling was driven by the motor and the centrifugal force compacted the shot (about 1/32" dia) onto the disc vanes and the drive picked up. Think it was only used with a vertical spin dryer (Pancake/doughnut spun horizontally) but the bigger ones I was involved with were mounted on the shaft of a 25HP motor and spun vertically.

                                       

                                      Regards Ian.

                                      Edited By Circlip on 21/09/2014 19:28:49

                                      #164224
                                      Gary Wooding
                                      Participant
                                        @garywooding25363
                                        Posted by Robin teslar on 20/09/2014 11:12:06:

                                        I was thinking more of the properties of sand/mud mixture (laterite). I found this in africa when it rained. This saturated mud was quite fluid when stirred slowly, but if you tried to stir quickly it locked up and became immovable. Remove the force and reapply slowly and it became fluid again

                                        Which is why quicksand is so dangerous.

                                        Gary

                                        #164272
                                        Robin teslar
                                        Participant
                                          @robinteslar
                                          Posted by Gary Wooding on 22/09/2014 07:17:59:

                                          Posted by Robin teslar on 20/09/2014 11:12:06:

                                          I was thinking more of the properties of sand/mud mixture (laterite). I found this in africa when it rained. This saturated mud was quite fluid when stirred slowly, but if you tried to stir quickly it locked up and became immovable. Remove the force and reapply slowly and it became fluid again

                                          Which is why quicksand is so dangerous.

                                          Gary

                                          Indeed, quicksand results from water percolating from underground streams upwards but not necessarily breaking the surface which is why it is so treacherous. The sand bed is fluidised so you sink in quickly. When you try and withdraw from it you loosen sand above so it looses its water and locks up. rescue can be effected by a slow steady pull

                                          This is why morecamb bay sands can be so dangerous

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