Workshop/Garage Insulation/Space Heating

[David George 1Participant @davidgeorge1]

I insulated my up and over door with Kingspan ìnsulation 10mm thick. It fits behind the brackets and struts dosnt overload the weight and is fire resistant as long as the joints are taped over with corect foil tape. It works great and feels warm to the touch. I don't think polystyrene is fire resistant ask as you buy.

David

Edited By David George 1 on 06/11/2020 22:10:21

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

First try of the "motorcycle dryer" went well this afternoon. Very effective at getting standing water from between cooling fins, oil cooler matrix, recessed cap screws etc. Only downside is that is not possible to shift a lot of air at high velocity quietly.

Not surprising on both counts. A ninety miles per hour air blast will be effective at shifting water – and noisy! I think I would just use an airline for the job.

With regards to heating/condensation, I look at as from the point of view that insulation and draught excluders are a one-off cost whereas heating will cost more and more as time progresses.

To avoid taxation and most of the VAT, one needs a bulk delivery into a tank. Has to be in excess of 200 litres, I believe. There are lots who buy fuel in bulk.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Dr_GMJN on 06/11/2020 18:38:28:

Must say my insurance company disagrees about the worst place for a car being in a garage. In fact they disagree to the extent that they wouldn’t insure either of them!

…

That's because corrosion damage is your problem, not theirs! It's a cruel world…

Dave

[mechman48Participant @mechman48]

I had written a long spiel about my garage insulation but having moved off write up to get pics, I lost it all… another pain in the arse with this forum format… this reply dialogue box won't keep anything typed, I have to copy & paste into word docx & save, have to do the same to reprint back into box.. enough of the gripes. A couple of pics to show the basic insulation set up..

Insulated garage door..

Access door..

[Dr_GMJNParticipant @dr_gmjn]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 07/11/2020 09:18:22:

Posted by Dr_GMJN on 06/11/2020 18:38:28:

Must say my insurance company disagrees about the worst place for a car being in a garage. In fact they disagree to the extent that they wouldn’t insure either of them!

…

That's because corrosion damage is your problem, not theirs! It's a cruel world…

Dave

No corrosion on mine…I don’t use them much, and I’ve seen what happens to cars left unused on driveways, they are in a lot worse condition. Apart from UV degradation of rubber, and sun damage of interiors and hoods, once you get moisture freezing in any bodywork imperfections in an old car, you’re screwed. Mine are in a dry garage that never freezes, so I can’t see the issue. Very similar to aircraft left outside vs those inside in air museums, the ones outside are shagged in a matter of years.

Edited By Dr_GMJN on 07/11/2020 23:34:23

Edited By Dr_GMJN on 07/11/2020 23:35:58

[Dr_GMJNParticipant @dr_gmjn]

Posted by mechman48 on 07/11/2020 20:01:46:

I had written a long spiel about my garage insulation but having moved off write up to get pics, I lost it all… another pain in the arse with this forum format… this reply dialogue box won't keep anything typed, I have to copy & paste into word docx & save, have to do the same to reprint back into box.. enough of the gripes. A couple of pics to show the basic insulation set up..

Insulated garage door..

Access door..

Thanks for persevering. I had a look at my doors – those panels would slot into the horizontal stiffeners perfectly. I’ll try to get some delivered.

[David George 1Participant @davidgeorge1]

This is the insulation on my solid up and over door. Behind a wire drawing jig I was making for a friend.

David

[Dr_GMJNParticipant @dr_gmjn]

Posted by David George 1 on 08/11/2020 09:37:25:

This is the insulation on my solid up and over door. Behind a wire drawing jig I was making for a friend.

David

That’s exactly the same door as mine – Garador with the latches at the edges.

So that’s 10mm Kingspan and foil tape?

How was it attached?

Did you bother with sealing between the door and it’s frame? I had a look yesterday and it seems pretty good as standard. I already sealed the frame to the brickwork an lintel.

Thanks.

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Absolutely THE best method of heating a workshop is an air to air heat pump.
Initial cost is high, but running costs are low. you will get 3 to 4 times more heat into the workshop than it consumes in electricty. e.g. 2 kWh of heating will cost 0.5 kWh of electricity. The smallest size of single split unit will be enough for most workshops.

In addition to heating it can also dehumidify at a high rate and can be used to cool in summer.

On garage door insulation, it is important to insulate all the internal surfaces including stiffeners and flanges. This does not have to be as good (thick) as the main insulation but ideally it should be. Even just thin stick on foam sheet or strip will help and stop condensation on these parts.

Anyone using any type of combustion heater, including indirect types like Webasco style vehicle heaters PLEASE get and use a carbon momoxide alarm. I have had a relative killed by a faulty heater.

Robert G8RPI

[Dr_GMJNParticipant @dr_gmjn]

Thanks Robert. The only pricing info I could find after a quick search was “£600 cash back”, which suggests it’s not going to be an option for me!

Im a bit concerned that sealing the garage will cause condensation issues. There are no air bricks, although there will be a small amount of leakage under the doors: Plan would be to use seal strip, but leave a 5mm gap all the way along. That should stop leaves and Elm seeds blowing under (main reason I bought it), but stop the majority of the draughts. It would also allow any build-up of gases/liquids to escape if something unforeseen happened.

[David George 1Participant @davidgeorge1]

Hi the insulation dosn't need attaching it just slides in under the flanges and brackets. I found that it was easy to cut into strip lengths and slide in. I found I had to slightly add a little more spring tension to get the ballance after fitting insulation. The bottom if door has a aluminium strip with rubber draft excluded and the sides have brush draft excluders.

David

Edited By David George 1 on 08/11/2020 11:38:10

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

Posted by Dr_GMJN on 06/11/2020 11:54:14:

All,

So what's an economical method of quickly heating a large space like this (and avoiding condentastion)? It's not like I'd be spending all day in there at this time of year, maybe 3 hours at a time.

Thanks!

The only way you can fully achieve this is an Infared bar fire, given you have about 2-3tons extra metal, glass and plastic to soak convected heat away. I use an electric patio heater and move it around depending where I am. It's nice having a warm back.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Continuing this thread as it was the most recent on this sort of topic. How are others coping with this cold spell?

The recent weather is wearing down my workshop tolerance to about an hour at a time at present. Since this thread was last active I have seen as low as 4C in the workshop on a couple occasions, but remedied by upping the warming/drying time to 1 1/2 kWh/night and even 3kWh for a couple of days to warm up the metalwork.

I will increase my dehumidifier to 4 or 5h/night for the next few days – workshop was down to 6C this afternoon. Working without gloves (well, only thin nitrile ones) while making adjustments to the lathe, with cold spanners and cold lathe chased me out, with cold fingers, after about an hour.

At full power that will be 3-4 units (30-40p/night) for the next few days in this cold spell. Air temperature soon rises and is not the problem – it is the machinery slowly cooling down and slowly warming up…. Trouble is it would need a few days above 6C to get much heat in from outside – because of all the insulation.

One of the jobs on the list, for outside work, is to get another 3 or 4 PV panels on the garage roof. We will soon be getting some decent solar gain, hopefully.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Currently, it is – 0.4C outside. Popped into the workshop to get a spanner, and with the 60W tubular heater under the bench having been going non stop for the last couple of months, at 12C it felt warm in there!

The benefits of being well insulated!

Stay safe

Howard

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember12892]

[This posting has been removed]

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Is it thermostatted at 12 degrees, Howard?

[Roger BestParticipant @rogerbest89007]

I turned the thermostat on the little oil-filled rad down, it was too hot at 17C, and probably too expensive too. I am glad the insulation is so good, it was worth it.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

NDIY

No, the heater just runs continuously during cold periods, and 12C was what was showing on the thermometer when I went, so a very slow temperature build up by a low power heater in a well insulated shop.

The weather forecast is for -10 tonight, and SWMBO car stands outside. So have just hung a 100W bulb near the screen washer bottle,'cos the fluid is stated to be safe to -5, and don't want the trouble of having to find and fit a new bottle. Sadly ran out of concentrate, or would have topped it up to give more protection.

Once, a friend had a battery freeze and split the casing, and don't want that!

Howard

[Iain DownsParticipant @iaindowns78295]

I have been using a small electric fan heater to bring cool up to bearable, but I've given up for now.

Partly, it's not man enough to take -2 up to something bearable. However, more so because I noticed that I was getting A LOT of condensation on the bigger machines. They just don't warm up. Particularly the rotary table was attracting some rust.

What I really need is an attached double garage with central heating, or a decent cellar.

Perhaps the next house.

Iain

[Rod RenshawParticipant @rodrenshaw28584]

We seem to return to this time and again.

The basics, as I understand them, are:

No moisture producing things allowed inside, so no wet bikes, no (or only very small and brief) soldering and brazing flames, and not too many spectators who will persist in breathing out.

Seal against draughts

Effective vapour barrier in walls, floors and ceilings. Vapour barrier must go inside the insulation the air inside a building is almost always wetter than the air outside and we don't want that wet air to saturate the insulation, which would render it nearly useless.

Insulate, to prevent any rapid temperature changes, which will often cause condensation. Foil is not an insulation, it may be a vapour barrier and a draft excluder but insulation must be thicker than that. Though I think there are products which have several layers to provide both the vapour barrier and the insulation.

Heaters which spread the warm air around, for comfort.

Consider the relative costs of fuel for the heaters, before deciding on the heaters, mains gas is much cheaper than electricity per KW hour for example, Though the exhaust must be piped outside, and this example may not be true everywhere.

If you have poor or no insulation, and I agree it can be expensive and difficult, then covers on machines with small black heaters underneath and hand tools in cupboards with similar heaters is effective. The purpose of the heater is to make the machine warmer that its surroundings so any condensation goes elsewhere. So low consumption heaters and no thermostat. You want the protection to be on all the time, at least in the colder months. If a thermostat exists to do anything then it exists to switch on and off. Anyone have any practical experience of the relative merits of plastic covers versus permeable fabric ones? Heaters also have the benefit that the tools feel a little warmer when you are using them on cold days.

Finally, the late great Tom Walshaw, writing as Tubal Cain, responded to this problem by asking his wife to knit him an extra thick sweater and he had no heating at all, and his shop was in Westmorland where they know a thing or two about cold and rain.

And really finally, the Americans say your tools don't rust when you are using them!

Rod

[Steve PaveyParticipant @stevepavey65865]

“Effective vapour barrier in walls, floors and ceilings. Vapour barrier must go inside the insulation the air inside a building is almost always wetter than the air outside and we don't want that wet air to saturate the insulation, which would render it nearly useless”

Agreed. I’d go as far as to say that a proper vapour barrier is the single most important factor in making sure a workshop is useable. If you do anything in the workshop that produces water vapour you might need to restrict it to warm dry days when you can open the doors up – and if you need mechanical ventilation then stick a fan in at high level, as moist air is less dense than dry air.

I like the sound of an air/air heat pump – has anyone fitted one and if so are there any recommendations- make, size, etc??

[Chris CrewParticipant @chriscrew66644]

I have a Dimplex 2Kw convector heater which can be switched to 1Kw and controlled by a thermostat. It is switched on at the very lowest settings 24/7/365. The temperature in the workshop, which is a precast concrete garage 21' x 13' with a 'site office' type wooden front replacing the 'up-and-over' door aperture, hardly ever drops below about 50/55 degrees even on the coldest of days. Obviously, if the ambient temperature is above this from about early Spring to late Autumn the heater is not using any power. I have noticed a slight increase in the Winter quarter electricity bill but nothing too un-affordable and I am prepared to pay it to keep condensation and rust at bay.

The roof is corrugated 'asbestos' with a coated sheet steel outer skin screwed to purlins. Between the two roofs is 4" of loft insulation. The walls of the building are not insulated. Since adopting this method of heating I have had no trouble with rust or condensation because of the relative stability of the temperature.

Edited By Chris Crew on 11/02/2021 20:35:14

[Taf_PembsParticipant @taf_pembs]

Anyone had any experience of the 'far' Infrared panel heaters? I'm thinking of getting a 600w panel or the equivalent bar heater (1200 / 600w) so I can have it on a timer during the colder months just to keep things a little more stable, the cost to run in comparison to conventional heaters certainly a plus.

1200w Heater

These 'carbon crystal' jobbies seem to be gathering pace as efficient heaters..

Some folks seem to swear by them, especially due to the low power consumption but some say they are useless however most of the stuff I've read where people say they are rubbish don't seem to understand how they work.

If I have something that just keeps the metal stuff slightly warmer than the surroundings then surely that will help as well as keeping a more stable temp.

I'm about a 3rd of the way through insulating my roof, it was just membrane and slate tiles so is now getting sealed with 50mm celotex between all the rafters and eventually I will board out the whole place with 25mm celotex on the walls with ply studded over.

It's one of those jobs that got left when building due to completely running out of money but now is 10 times harder due to the inordinate amount of crap stored up there!

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

I remember a panel heater from the 1950s that worked like that. As under ten year-olds we did stand in front of it but it was really too high for maximum benefit to shorter people. It was in the ‘dairy’ part of the cowshed, so never ever heated the breeze block walls! IR is reputedly good for heating personnel in direct line with it. That is its forte.

As far as heating a workshop, I can see little advantage except while you are in residence. 1200W is 1200W from whatever heat sorce. It is electric and will cost you about 40p every hour it is energised at 1200W unless you are on a E7 tariff or similar. A fan heater of similar wattage would likely warm the area more effectively, but it is your choice, your money and you will live with it. Please let us all know your findings, in due course.

I’m currently getting about 8kWh from each litre of oil burned (along with about 5 penny-worth of leccy to run the heater). Most definitely cheaper than heating with electricity, but the insulation is the real saver – my workshop has a minimum of 100mm all around and over.

[DMBParticipant @dmb]

Rod,

You asked if anyone has experience of plastic covers. I had some rolls of mineral wool from B&Q years ago. MW put in loft and it was packed in a thin roll of plastic sheet which I now use to pull over the Myford and the bench when finished for the night. 3ft tubular heater on the back of the drip tray on a timer and thermostat on its lowest possible setting. Thermostat currently disconnected so heater on about 16 hours on timer, but it's only low wattage. Heavy plastic bags over mill. Previous life, they held sand or ballast. Home made heater in protective plywood box. Its 4 off 60W bulbs in series so only about 15W/hr.x 168hrs/wk = 2520W= 2.5 units/wk @ whatever cost/unit, can't remember what it is. Heavy Fobco bench drill and second, smaller DW mill both covered in ballast bags, no heater at all. Heat slowly escapes from the covers into the general workshop, 10 x 8ft shed, so keeps the chill at bay. Warmer if not used for a few days as door not opened. I note that covers protect against rust irrespective of whether a heater is in use but uncovered steel in the general workshop area does slowly start rusting inspite of it being a bit warmer than if there was no heat at all. Walls skinned with 3ply and space stuffed with mineral wool. Roof covered in thick layer of polystyrene, so no Silver Soldering! Roof and walls outside totally covered in roofing felt for rain proofing.

John

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