Which collet chuck for a Warco GH1236 lathe

[DazzaParticipant @dazza]

[DazzaParticipant @dazza]

Hi guys,

I've finally made up my mind. I'm going to buy a new Warco GH1236 lathe. However, now i'm stuck on what collet chuck to get. I was thinking either a 5C or an ER40 collet chuck. I mostly use metric bar stock. Could you please give me you opinions on which type of collet chuck would be best for use on a lathe?

Kind regards,

Darren

[David Standing 1Participant @davidstanding1]

Do you want to pass your bar stock through the spindle? This may crystallise your choice a bit.

[DazzaParticipant @dazza]

Hi David,

Yes I need to pass my bar stock through the spindle. I thought both the 5C and ER40 collet chucks allowed this. Am i wrong in thinking this?

Thanks,

Darren

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I'd go with the 5C and an ER converter so you have the best of both worlds, Not sure if a ER40 converter is commercially available by ER 32 certainly is.

The other option would be a multisize collet chuck which would have more capacity then the 5C or ER40

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

I've been going round on circles on this one myself! I start with 5C because it's primarily intended to hold work whereas ER is primarily intended hold tools. But either will do the other. ER has the advantage of a wider gripping range per collet than 5C so you need fewer of them. But ER chucks have greater overhang which reduces accuracy. Pluses and minuses for both. Perhaps in practice they're so similar it doesn't matter?

I'm inclined to go 5C simply because it's the most common solution on a lathe. But I still haven't made my mind up…

Dave

[DazzaParticipant @dazza]

Hi Jason,

Whats a multisize collet chuck? That's not a name i've come across on the web. Would you have a link on where to get one so I can compare it to the 5C and ER40?

Thanks,

Darren

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

ER collets can be used as milling cutter holders in both lathe and mill as well as for holding stock. Collets are available new for about the price of a used 5C.

5C is going out of favour and probably considered 'limited' and 'old fashioned' by some. Imported collet sets are available but as with drills in the end you only actually use a few sizes. The main advantage would be that an insert can be made for the 5MT spindle and with a drawbar keeps the job right up close tot he bearings. Max size is just over an inch but really most of the time for larger sizes of stock a regular chuck is adequate anyway.
Think about use on milling machine too. Standard spindex takes 5C but an ER32 modified spindex is available too (Arc) though not and ER40.

I think ER32 would end up cheaper than 5C if you don't need ER40 to get collet precision in larger sizes.

[David Standing 1Participant @davidstanding1]

Posted by Dazza on 02/11/2017 13:29:43:

Hi Jason,

Whats a multisize collet chuck? That's not a name i've come across on the web. Would you have a link on where to get one so I can compare it to the 5C and ER40?

Thanks,

Darren

They are made by Pratt Burnerd:

**LINK**

[SaxalbyParticipant @saxalby]

The good thing with 5C is that you can have a back-stop screwed into the collet for repetition work, they can hold short pieces of work, emergency collets can be machined to a special size and lastly square and hex collets

[David Standing 1Participant @davidstanding1]

Posted by Dazza on 02/11/2017 13:27:14:

Hi David,

 

Yes I need to pass my bar stock through the spindle. I thought both the 5C and ER40 collet chucks allowed this. Am i wrong in thinking this?

 

Thanks,

 

Darren

 

They do, with caveats:

In this regard, it is fairly simple as far as the ER chuck is concerned – a D1-4 ER 40 chuck for example will pass bar stock up to 26mm/1".

Regarding the 5C collets, it depends on whether you want to use a collet chuck, or a closer – front or rear mount, and then you are limited by the collet bore of 1", or the drawbar bore, if you use a tubular drawbar with a rear mount closer.

 

 

Edited By David Standing 1 on 02/11/2017 14:04:07

[TrevorhParticipant @trevorh]

I have the 1224 Warco and after asking on here I took on Jasons advice and went for the 5C range and haven't look back

I was lucky in that I purchased a full set from Warco including the collet chuck already mounted for a good price and haven' t had anything yet that I couldn't hold

The bonus is having the square and hex holders as well

cheers

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

No question in my mind: ER40. 5C you need a collet per bar size you will use, but ER40 fits a range of 1mm for each size (though it is worth buying specials for common imperial sizes to grip properly, especially 1 inch.) Don't get a milling type chuck that fits in the headstock taper because you can't fit stock through it. You need one on a flange that fits the headstock chuck fitting. On my Super 7 I have a Myford one that screws on to the (large) bore register. I don't understand the comment above about overhang, look at the pictures of ER flange mount chucks on the Arc website.

[David Standing 1Participant @davidstanding1]

And talking about ER chuck overhang, 5C is just as bad:

**LINK**

[David Standing 1Participant @davidstanding1]

So, Dazza, are you confused by all the conflicting advice yet?

[jimmy bParticipant @jimmyb]

I've got an ER40 on my Chester Crusader. Collets go up to 30mm, (32mm is also available). I made er ring to fit the nut, allows for quick opening of collet.

Main advantage of 5C is that hex and square collets are available. I'm very happer with ER!

Jim

[John ReeseParticipant @johnreese12848]

A couple things I didn't see mentioned. A 5C has a gripping range of only +- a couple thou. An ER has a usable range of 1mm, except for the smallest sizes. It takes a lot more 5C collets to cover a given range of sizes than it does with ER.

While a 5C can be fitted with a collet stop to control length of a part, it will not repeat that length if there is any variation in diameter.

A 5C is capable of holding very short work. The ER needs stock to extend nearly all the way through the collet to grip properly.

An ER flange type collet chuck plus backplate will be shorter than a 5C spindle nose collet chuck, but not by much.

A 5C spindle nose chuck is slightly easier to operate than the ER. 5C needs only the chuck wrench. The ER requires 2 wrenches or a wrench and a tommy bar. (I apologize for saying wrench instead of spanner. I grew up west of the Atlantic.)

[MalcBParticipant @malcb52554]

I initialed shared the ER40 set up used for my milling by adding the D1-4 mount chuck on my Harrison M300. It is now just used on the VMC.

I got a great Ebay deal that came up using BIN as it just appeared, on the Pratt D1-4 collet setup which goes up to 38mm. Much better quality than the ER40 system but slower to load and unload. They are great chucks and very positive but they are difficult to get hold of and can command prices up to £500.

[John ReeseParticipant @johnreese12848]

I just took the time to look up the specs for the GH1236 lathe. It has a no.5 Morse taper in the spindle. With a spindle adapter it will take 5C collets directly in the spindle. That gives the option of using a handwheel type collet closer or the quicker lever type.

I have a Clausing Metosa 13" lathe. It came with the spindle adapter and handwheel collet closer. I found I could not get the tool close enough to the spindle to do useful work. The carriage hit the headstock. To solve the problem I purchased a spindle nose collet chuck for 5C.

I suggest getting the lathe set up and check to see how close you can get the tool to the spindle nose BEFORE deciding on the type of collet chuck to purchase.

[Old SchoolParticipant @oldschool]

I have both, the collet chuck of choice for me is the 5C l like being able to tighten and loosen with a chuck key I also like the ability of the 5c collet to hold short lengths of material. It can be done with ER collets but it's a faf.

[DazzaParticipant @dazza]

Just home from work and read through all the posts. I’m really confused now. Lol

JasonB The multisize collets look nice but very expensive. Not sure if I could justify the price after buying a new lathe as well

I’m tending to lean towards the ER40 collets as they give me the largest grip range per collet size.

Maybe also a 5MT to 5C adapter if I need to hold short parts in a limited range of 5C collets.

Thanks for the info.

Darren

[SteveIParticipant @stevei]

Hi,

 

I expect you will never get any consensus because the ER and 5C work holding approaches for the lathe have different positives and negatives and it would come down to what you want and can afford.

 

I get the best of both worlds.. I have a range of 5c mostly purchased second hand. I try and buy quality Crawford or Hardinge round (all second hand good condition and there are some real bargains out there for ex industry 5C) collets but for hex and square Chinese. I also have a 5C to ER40 collet for intermediate sized round bar.

 

What max size bar are you going to be working with? a D1-4 spindle has a nice spindle bore and it would be a shame to limit yourself if you intend to do larger work.

If your lathe is also sold in the USA there might be an option available for a collet closer as although 5C collets are a 100+ year old design they are very popular in the USA. It is a very nice arrangement.

 

Steve

 

Edited By SteveI on 02/11/2017 19:51:23

[John ReeseParticipant @johnreese12848]

Something not mentioned yet. In 5C you can get hex and square collets. Soft collets are available so you can machine whatever shape hole you need. step collets and expanding mandrels in 5C

5C collets also fit spin-indexers , indexing fixtures, and other gadgets. To the best of my knowledge none of these things are made for ER.

I think I am pretty open minded about collets and collet chucks. I have both 5C and ER collet equipment plus a Jacobs Rubberflex collet chuck that covers 1/4" to 1 3/8". What I prefer at any given time depends on the job I am doing.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

5C collets also fit spin-indexers , indexing fixtures, and other gadgets. To the best of my knowledge none of these things are made for ER.

Knowledge improvement time!

I believe you will find, if you look hard enough, an ER spin indexer available from ArcEuro. Named after the late John Stevenson?

It will accept both 5C and ER32 collets. Look it up, along with the square and hex indexers.

[Tony RayParticipant @tonyray65007]

ArcEurotrade sell an ER 32 collet block system. Unless you are doing a lot of precision work and need a quick loading system ER40 will do the job. I will though put in a good word for the Burnerd Super Precsion 3 jaw chuck I have. I often see ~ 1 thou repeatability when loading &unloading the same job, I mark the job and the chuck with a marker pen soI I get it loaded back in the same position. Unfortunately you are unlikely to get that performance out of the stock supplied chuck.

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