when is a precision vice not a precision vice>?

[SpringbokParticipant @springbok]

My Warco lathe and my Chester 626 mill was straight out of the box have given no problems and excellent service. I have converted both to 3 phase well worth it. The only problem I have ever had was the swarf apron fell to bits after 2 years, but used a bit of lino and 5 years later still ok. Have built a 7.25g and almost 5" B1 loco. I have found both machines very accurate.
Bob

[Roderick JenkinsParticipant @roderickjenkins93242]

Sorry, double post

Rod

Edited By Roderick Jenkins on 25/01/2013 10:30:32

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

In NZ the tool suppliers that I have used send a buyer to China, or Taiwan, to hand pick the machinery, and tools. In China there is a central design bureau that sends the designs out to the various factories, these factories have a very wide range of standards ranging from very poor, to excelent, its up to the buyer to find the best manufacturer, who will manufacture to the standard required, and do modifications to the design if need be. I don't think there is much Indian machinery of hobby size imported to NZ, mind you I'v had a hard job over the last couple of years getting to see much of that sort of thing here. Ian S C

ps:  the 4×6 horizontal / vertical bandsaw was designed in the USA for one of the large chain stores, sometime in the 1940/50s

Edited By Ian S C on 25/01/2013 11:21:02

[alan smith 6Participant @alansmith6]

Posted by JasonB on 25/01/2013 07:36:01:.

If you care to give what you consider acceptable tollerances on a lathe then I'll see if I can dig out the test sheet for my lathe and we can see how they compare. Say run out of spindle socket and a piece of bar protruding 100mm from the chuck.

Still would like to hear whether you feel beginners would want to pay for the addit meeting these tighter specs as we would have to pay someone to quality check the parts with suitable equipment and swallow the cost of any rejects.

JasonB

Just read all the new posts and as usual Lambton gives a balanced argument.

For the type of machine that we`re talking about, it should be quite possible to get alignments of one thou over 12" in all planes and concentricity within 1/2 a thou, that should be OK for our kind of work.

As I said in a previous post, it would not take a lot to bring quality up to an acceptable level over the range of machines and accessories but with the manufacturers located thousands of miles away and a possible language difficulty I bet that the dealers don`t send things back to the manufacturer but as someone else has already said, just sell the items off cheap and still make a profit.

Perhaps that`s one of the reasons that quality is lacking in so many of the cases that we`ve heard about, as the manufacturers just churn out the stuff willy nilly without knowing or caring about the quality of their products, as they probably don`t receive any feedback from the dealers.

Just because you`ve received goods that are fit for purpose doesn`t guarantee that your next purchase will be up to the same standard! We all know how irritating it is to receive sub standard goods and all the palaver and inconvenience it takes to rectify the situation. It`s no wonder that folk just put things right themselves but as has been said before, dealers need feedback as to how the products are performing, otherwise they will think that all is well. So even if you have to do work on your purchase a quick telephone call to the dealer will keep him informed.

We are talking about cheap machinery without being quantative as we don`t know how much these machines cost to manufacture and it may well be that the dealers are making a substantial profit on their sales and don`t want any changes that would affect profitability.

What is better? To take a lower profit and have better quality products with more customer satisfaction or, as I suspect, take more flak from the customers and keep profitability up.

I think that it`s a truism, that where money is concerned then principles fly out of the window.

There you are! there are still gaps in our knowlege which prevent us from making a firm decision as to what is the true cause of the problems with quality, only the dealers can answer this but I don`t think that they are going to divulge their margins to us.

Alan

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Usual same old, same old from the same suspects.

Said it before the expression is not fit for purse.

I have two very nice precision vises here but they cost £2,600 for the two , no typo.

So it's obvious they are this price for a reason and anyone spending £3 7s and 6p is going to be left wanting.

Perhaps they are short of money to spend on DECENT tooling because those rip-off bastards at the local Audi dealer has took their pants down for £225 for a simple service but we never see them moaning about that do we ?

[jim bothParticipant @jimboth37830]

Well said John!

My car tyres are £157 each, i could have got some for around £50 each off ebay and then moaned about them being no good!!!

Quality costs!

[alan smith 6Participant @alansmith6]

Welcome to the group John,

'As usual comments out of context, what the heck have the prices of your precision vises got to do with the price of beer! I bet that they are specialised vises for CNC.

As you are such a large fan of Chinese kit and defend it to the end, why haven`t you bought Chinese instead of paying through the nose for products from Eastern Europe where probably your vises originate from, as does your beloved TOS.

Do you happen to know how much a Chinese worker in one of those hobby machine factory earns? It must be around 100 dollars a month. At that level of salary, surely the Chinese should be able to equal your precision vises for about a twentieth of the price.

Alan

Ps. The cars that people buy just for status are a complete joke, better to have a reasonably priced car that ticks all necessary boxes and spend the money that you save on a swish workshop.

Edited By alan smith 6 on 25/01/2013 13:53:06

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

Before any of you take any more notice of Alan Smith 6 (oh dear are there more of them?) just take a look at his photo album , says it all really.

[MICHAEL WILLIAMSParticipant @michaelwilliams41215]

(1) A long time ago when cheap imported machines started to appear on the market there was a long discussion about ' poor quality ' of these machines . One correspondent said that with his budget it was a case of having a poor machine or having no machine at all .

I was in a minority of one when I said that having no machine at all was the better choice .

(2) When I buy anything of an engineering nature I make my own personal judgement of what's on offer .

In the case of mechanical equipment one glance and a few seconds of trying the feel of the thing is usually enough to identify whether item is crap or not . If it passes this test then a proper investigation is carried out .

My point ? Make an informed assesment yourself in person of any higher value equipment before you buy . Distance shopping and Internet shopping are so completely uncertain that I would never buy anything important this way except from a very trusted supplier .

(3) Further to (2) I know that engineering judgement has to be acquired by people but its not that hard to pick up the basics . Rule No 1 – if it looks and feels like scrap metal then it probably is .

Michael Williams .

[David Clark 13Participant @davidclark13]

Hi Kwil

Which album (there are several) and why?

regards David

[Brian WarwickParticipant @brianwarwick88192]

Posted by jim both on 25/01/2013 13:31:55:

Well said John!

 

My car tyres are £157 each, i could have got some for around £50 each off ebay and then moaned about them being no good!!!

 

Quality costs!

Totally agree quality costs BUT that does not mean you get quality because you pay a lot of money.

A high proportion of the money paid for a so called quality item is for the BRAND NAME nothing more.

Tell me one manufacturer that has reduced his RRP when moving production to the Far East as I have never heard of one, all savings simply drop to the bottom line PROFIT. So quality defiantly does cost and possibly twice what it should.

As for buying on eBay if you buy like for like what’s wrong with a TRUE bargain, again some retailers want ridiculous margins, I know of stores that wont work on less than 300% gross   

 

 

Edited By Brian Warwick on 25/01/2013 15:42:12

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

David,

Why? Simple really here we have a Forum member pushing his views on quality of machines etc., available to the lower price end of the market when the apparent level of his own work hardly justifies his views

[David Clark 13Participant @davidclark13]

Hi Kwil

Which album?

The quality of someone's work is imaterial to the thread topic. Just because he may be unable to produce quality work it should not affect the items he buys.

Only the price should do that.

regards David

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Yes I did look yesterday Kwil, anyone who uses a milling cutter in a 3-jaw obviously does not do any accurate work

Here you go test record for my Chinese lathe

TIR of spindle taper 0.015 permissible, mine came in at 0.01mm thats 0.0004"

TIR on a test bar in the 3 jaw which wee all know are not an accurate way to hold work permissible 0.08 to 0.10, mine came in at 0.05mm thats 0.002"

So why are you asking for the accuracy to be increased?

As for cost to our suppliers I don't really care what they make, if its anything like when I was involved in retail then 40-50% is quite normal. As to what the worker in the far east earns I think its better they earn "peanuts" as you put it rather than go begging or resort to prostitution. Then again peanuts is all relative as out there what we would call peanuts may well feed and house their family for a week

Anyway I'm off to the workshop now to see what inaccurate work I can produce on my shoddy machines

J

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

'Nuff said

[alan smith 6Participant @alansmith6]

Hi Kwil,

There was one post that you made on a similar thread that I was unable to answer before it was closed down.

I had detected an attitude towards designers and management in that you were displaying the classic "them and us" point of view that exists on the shop floor. I thought about it and realised that things have changed since I was a callow youth involved in all of this.

I`ve revealed in previous posts that I became a designer and then design engineer after my apprenticeship and National Service and have been so all my later life.

I think that you were quite right in some things that you said, To give an example, nowadays young people largely do not undergo the rigourous practical training that is the precursor to being a proficient designer. These young people learn drawing programs like "autocad" or "microstations" whilst at school and then go straight into the drawing office to turn out their work and can be quite arrogant when questioned about things that you mentioned, like designs that cannot be assembled etc.

I`ve spent a great deal of time advising these young bulls and sooner or later we find them in positions of authority that their experience does not warrant.

Back to your now comments, I suppose that now you won`t be wanting any help from me to make your choo- choo.

Alan

[alan smith 6Participant @alansmith6]

JasonB,

I understand that you wish to diminish my self image but first you have to understand that it is what you do yourself that is important. I do I do not expect people to rave about what I have done.

By the way, I withdraw my offer of sending you my engine drawings. Did your little buzzer perform as expected?

Alan

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Yep worked a treat though its in a nice oak box now if you mean the buzz coil

**LINK**

 

If you are refering to the fire fly then here it is

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvbnjyrHq8M

Edited By JasonB on 25/01/2013 17:00:24

[Brian WarwickParticipant @brianwarwick88192]

Posted by KWIL on 25/01/2013 15:41:30:

David,

Why? Simple really here we have a Forum member pushing his views on quality of machines etc., available to the lower price end of the market when the apparent level of his own work hardly justifies his view

Is that not a bit harsh>>

Who are you to judge if anyone is qualified to have an opinion or not. We all have a right to an opinion and just because you don’t like someone’s opinion does not give you the right to slag them, while I do not agree with a lot of Alan’s comments I would NEVER say he has no right to his opinion just offer a reasonable argument to try and let him see my opinion.>>

>

Clearly I am on the wrong site I thought this was a forum on engineering

>

>>

[JoParticipant @jo]

Jason: For comparison, my Colchester Master calibration figures

Spindle run out = 0.0001"

Runout at the end of a 12" bar worst case vertical/horizontal = 0.0001"

Tally round run out = 0.00008" = 0.002mm

I cannot machine to those tolerances, I wish I could.

Jo

[alan smith 6Participant @alansmith6]

Brian, I like your style you have a clear perspective, as a beginner on the forums it`s difficult to understand that some members are not gentry, as I did at the beginning, You will soon get into the swing of it and become part of the toing and froing of our little world.

The secret is to build up to a climax and just stay below Dave`s limit of outspokeness until he finally has to pull the plug.

One thing that has struck me since participating on the Forum is that whatever you say however practical, sensible and helpful, there are legions out there that will defend the opposite point of view.

You will get to know the 1000 plus posters who carry their totals with pride, some are good but others don`t really come up to standard. you will read them on any thread. Don`t upset them or they will all unite and tear into you mercilessly.

It`s not about the truth but point scoring, so make sure that you give as good as you get.

Please remember, don`t give it if you can`t take it!

Bless you all,

Alan

Ps. What is it you don`t agree with me on?

Edited By alan smith 6 on 25/01/2013 18:25:36

[Donald WittmannParticipant @donaldwittmann92536]

Kwil and Jason B, You obviously take some kind of delight in trying to belittle Alan Smith6 when he was only putting across a perfectly valid point. Whether he is or isn't capable of producing accurate work is neither here nor there. I have looked through both your albums and whilst quite impressive it does not give either of you any right to have a pop at the aforementioned poster. I get the impression that anyone who is critical of Chinese machines on this forum is labeled a "bad guy"

Maybe you should go the whole nine yards and sell the family Ford, Volkswagen, Honda or whatever and buy a Chinese car instead. I'm sure that with a little fettling and some user made replacement parts it will go reasonably well, oh and its cheap.

Donald.

[alan smith 6Participant @alansmith6]

Cor Blimey Jason,

That firefly does actually buzz. Got to get it on Facebook quick.!

Alan

[alan smith 6Participant @alansmith6]

Donald, I love your posts, you get to the heart of the matter so clearly and quickly. There is something that we are all dying to know, who is Laurel and who is Hardy?

Alan

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

Alan, if you will listen, I did not come from the shop floor either

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