What price frustration?

[Sam StonesParticipant @samstones42903]

With regular questions from new arrivals (like me) in ME about various issues, like what to buy and, at the risk of prolonging the anguish from established members, I offer the following comments :-

Some years ago, when I was self-employed and earning what I considered to be an acceptable living, I wanted to progress from setting up my ML7 for jobs other than those to be turned, eg. milling and dividing. I should add that every part of my skeleton clock and many other items which required machining in some way, advanced by way of the Myford. So I bought a mill/drill apparently built to an Eastern philosophy.

Yes, it was cheap, and I should have expected cheap results, but I didn’t. There were lots of things on this machine which I should have recognised as cheap. But I didn’t. It was full of surprises at no extra cost. Well, not at first. But what makes something cheap? Who are the value analysts who generate cheap?

As an occasional expert witness in the plastics industry, I have seen some appallingly cheap products coming out of the Far East. You know, the ones that fail and cause serious injury in the process.

About the mill/drill – how about being in the process of drilling a hole when suddenly the grub-screw gripping the cross shaft with about two and a half turns of thread, lets go? Surely, fixing-screws in any machine should be long enough that the threads don’t strip? That’s real penny pinching.

And what about sand in the castings, such that parts which actually turn inside them, make grating and crunching noises.

I patiently accepted my mistakes, and decided to buy a milling cutter head and several collets similar to the Clarkson’s I’d used in the toolroom years ago. The parts of this Asian variety looked nice and shiny in their cardboard box, but when I came to use them, not one of the collets ran true. Eccentricities measuring up to 0.12mm TIR were revealed. When I took them back, I was offered a small box of collets from which to choose `good’ ones. As opposed to taking them home, measuring the collet’s wall thickness with a graduated calliper was my only convenient and comparative means of determining concentricity. There were none to be had with an acceptable accuracy. Why would I want to mill an item when only one side of the milling cutter was actually doing any cutting?

But I’ve left the best of this saga till last.

On this particular mill/drill, the two lead-screws had a 3mm pitch. OK so far. Also, the hand-wheel scales could not be zeroed. Still OK.

Then I discovered that the hand-wheel scales where calibrated with twenty main graduations, ie. the wheel was stamped from nought through to nineteen. That would be OK for say a 1mm movement, and perhaps I could get used to 1mm equalling 6.6r graduations. But without a zeroing facility, and this obtuse calibration, imagine the albeit brief mental arithmetic if (say) 1.7mm needed to be removed from a cherished work-piece.

Was the manufacturer’s approach intended to cut costs even more, or was it just plain stupidity? Fortunately, and although they would be the same in any language, the hand-wheel graduations were in English numerals, and machined off a treat, to be replaced with something that made sense.

Good luck to Myford and those who sail in her.

 

Best regards to all,

 

Sam

Edited By Sam Stones on 01/07/2010 02:21:45

Edited By Sam Stones on 01/07/2010 02:22:54

[Sam StonesParticipant @samstones42903]

Notes about a mill/drill

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

If it were left to Myford and what’s left of the British engineering fraternity to produce an affordable milling machine then no model engineers would own one.

 

You do realise that Myfords own machine is of far Eastern origin ?

 

John S.

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

Yes the mill is of eastern origin but at least Myfords do take a look at it first.

[Alan GordonParticipant @alangordon]

I agree Sam, However what amazes me is that  Western importers of this equipment seem happy to carry on with this poor quality. I would gladly pay a few quid extra to get a machine that had been “tuned” to suit their customers . John makes the point that Myford ‘s machine is Far Eastern based, but i will guess that they “fettel” the machine to ensure quality.

 

Alan

[Gordon WParticipant @gordonw]

I get very bored by all this far east/brittish stuff. I’ve a chinese lathe etc. and it needed setting up as expected. But the point is that eastern countries can make top quality stuff. It is up to the buyer to set the standards, and pay for them.

[DiggerParticipant @digger]

I don’t think it’s realistic to expect a really accurate piece of kit for the little money we pay for the lathes and mills, as we can rectify the machines when we get them home.

[Laurence BParticipant @laurenceb]

It’s the old story – you get what you pay for.I should think that most model engineers have realised by now that some machines of Chinese manufacture fall below the standards that one would expect from a British made machine.

I’m surprised that little mention is made of the ‘Wabeco’ range of milling machines from Germany (don’t mention the World Cup!) They are in my opinion,reasonably affordable and are of excellent quality.

The alternative to buying new foreign machine tools is to look at the second hand market in British machinery.I have an old Boxford AUD,dating from c1975 and a Centec 2B mill which is nearly as old as I am (and that’s getting on a bit now!).

Both machines had been well maintained  and still do excellent work.However finding a good second hand Centec nowadays isn’t easy! 

Edited By Laurence B on 01/07/2010 10:40:00

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

In the early days Myfords brought a machine in from Taiwan and worked on it, replaced the electrics with Telemechanique and badged it up as Myford.

 

Fair enough it was a big improvement but as these companies have improved, lets face it would you compare an ML2 with a S7 ?, so has the product.

 

Enough improvement to the point that it would be interesting to know if Myfords actually do anything nowadays that isn’t cosmetic.

 

Lets not make the mistake of comparing apples or oranges here, forget the mini mills and mill/drills and stick to the 6 x 30 style machines. These currently are being made in various factories on Swiss CNC grinders to produce the sliding surfaces.

How could Myfords improve on this given their slideway grinder is about 45 years old?

 

John S.

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

When I bought my large taiwanese lathe and mill/drill in the mid 80s I learned from the owner of the company that I got them from that a certain high class english lathe manufacturer got all their lathe beds from the same factory, and added their own headstock etc. At the time I looked at Chinese, but the quality was poor, but now if I was to replace my machines, Chinese would be the way to go, there does’nt seem to be too much rubbish now(and Taiwanese stuff not so available), perhaps all the rubbish goes north.Ian S C

[Chris TriceParticipant @christrice43267]

While the quality of Chinese machines have drastically improved, the quality between brands is still inconsistent. Many Chinese lathes are very good (for the price) but the comparison with owning a car is relevant. A cheap car can get you from A to B the same as an expensive better built one but a lot of value comes from the confidence and trust you have it’ll complete the journey without niggly problems. Some will put up with an irritating misfire while others can relax safe in the knowledge that everything is running perfectly. The same can be said about cameras. A russian clunker can take good pictures but there’s also pleasure to be had from using a realy slick camera from Canon, Nikon or Leica. If we now transfer that thinking to lathes or milling machines, I know that all the slides of my Myford are at 90 degrees to each other within very tight limits where I couldn’t be sure that a Chinese machine would be the same. If all these Chinese machines are so brilliant, why are the mags full of articles on how to improve them to the standards we previously took forgranted? Why are we hearing about broken gears or sand in the castings or swarf in the recesses or burnt out speed controllers? How many have purchased clones of Myford items from China or India only to find the quality wanting (quick change toolposts anyone)?  Myfords may be old fashioned or expensive (relatively) but I still trust the quality over the unknowns of a Chinese lathe.

 

In respect of there being cheaper but equally good alternative western machinery to Myford on the secondhand market, I think that’s largely true BUT I don’t think many have such a large range of accessories or the same versatility as the Myford range. Myford don’t suit everyone (clearly), but it’s hard to accept the enthusiasm with which some want to trash a manufacturer whose continued existence for nearly a century does rather suggest they are selling a desirable product..

 

As someone said earlier, you generally get what you pay for.

Edited By Chris Trice on 03/08/2010 23:30:38

[WALLACEParticipant @wallace]

Outr of curiosity, has anyone ever had a ‘qualty’ issue with a new Myford ? (such as sand in bearings, things not being square etc etc) ?

 

 

 

Nuff said.  

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Are we not comparing apples with oranges ?

 

There are no Chinese lathes in the same price / size range as the Myford.

There are lathes the same size but cheaper and there are lathes the same price but larger and better equipped.

 

I have just been on Myfords website to get some relative prices. The Sigma, which is the cheaper model is roughly £6,800 with basic equipment and I mean basic.

 

The Conny Sewer model is round about the £10,700 mark.

 

Now going to Warco’s website their WM280 model costs £1,250 which is the same size as the Myford.

Warco’s GH1640 lathe, that’s 16″ swing and 40 between centres is their most expensive lathe I can find at £ 7,800 Still far less than a Conny Sewer.

Geared head with hardened gears, Turcite slides, chucks, coolant, steadies, one shot lubrication

[Martin WParticipant @martinw]

Hi 

 

 Apples and oranges YES but I bought a small lathe from Chester, the DB7V, and there was no sign of sand or any other unwanted material/debris, the same applies to the mill I bought from Warco. Both of these machines are of Chinese origin and were delivered in a clean and effectively ready to run state. A clean down of the protective grease and slight adjustment of the gib strips on the lathe after a trial run and they are both performing brilliantly. The chuck on the lathe has minimal run out, well within the test limits, using different diameter ground silver steel bars.

 

The support from both companies is, imo, second to none with no query seemingly too trivial. If it had not been for these companies offering Chinese produced lathes then I probably would not have bothered to purchase any machine. The thought of buying a second hand machine, which would have been my only option, with no guarantee, no support, no accuracy report and no indication of usage does nothing but fill me with trepidation. What I now have are machines that were affordable, have a full back up and should something go amiss I have recourse to getting it fixed.

 

Arc Euro offer similar machines but also offer a full pre-delivery service, at a cost admittedly, but still cheaper than Myford. This is not to knock Myford as I would prefer to buy British but at their prices they were totally out of reach. It strikes me that some people are quick to condemn eastern products on the experience of one or two bad press reports.

 

I would suggest that the comments made, in another thread, by Bogstandard should be read. Unlike me he is an experienced engineer who sets very high standards and yet he finds that eastern machines meet his criteria.

 

Will end my ramblings now and retire.

 

Cheers

 

Martin

 

 

Edited By Martin W on 04/08/2010 01:43:21

[Sam StonesParticipant @samstones42903]

I started another half-page posting to this thread with more mumbles and grumbles, but having been the thread originator, I decided to scrub it.

Instead, I offer the following :-

William Edwards Deming 1900-1993 (refer Wikipedia) had one statement which has stuck in my mind –

 

“Quality is Free”.

Edited By Sam Stones on 04/08/2010 08:59:32

[John OlsenParticipant @johnolsen79199]

One thing to bear in mind is that China is a very big place. So there are good companies and crap companies, just as there used to be back in the days when Britain was the workshop of the world. Some of those British cars were pretty bad too, although as far as I can recall Roll-Royce always had a good reputation. You would think I was unfair if I criticised all British cars because of the shortcomings of some low end model.

 

Another factor is that as a result of their past, there are multiple factories producing standardised version of the same thing….except the standards vary. So just because the place down the road has a machine that looks about the same at a cheaper price, don’t think you are getting the same quality. What you are actually buying is dependent on the dealer.

 

So what we have to do as customers is to be well informed…find out where they guy bought those cheap hacksaw blades where the teeth wore off on the first cut, and don’t buy anything from that outfit.  Spread the word around about who is good and who is not so good, and then those who care will be able to get better quality. The Japanese learnt, and the Chinese will too, but only if their customers make them.

 

regards

John

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

Sam, Quality is never free, It costs to provide it and it costs to buy it.

[Sam StonesParticipant @samstones42903]

And – THE GREATEST COST OF ALL,  is losing a customer who will never return.

W Edwards Deming is worth a read.

 

Thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread.

 

Sam

[Alexander13Participant @alexander13]

So the question is which of the Chinese machine importers gets their machines from the best factory?

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

Who has been the longest in that particular business area?  WARCO and Chester, Chester has apparently a direct connection with their supplying factory.

[Gordon AParticipant @gordona]

The last 2 model engineer exhibitions I have been to where Myford have been in attendance, there were 2 people of far eastern origin helping on the stand. Is there a hidden message here?

[Chris TriceParticipant @christrice43267]

I think the nail was hit squarely on the head with the comment that different Eastern brands vary. There’s no doubt that many are good now or good enough for the average person’s standards so I wouldn’t tar every eastern manufacturer with the same brush. Warco may be one of the better ones. However, overall,  many suppliers of Eastern machines still have some catching up to do. The company I’m currently working for has an Axminster vertical milling machine and while it can perform most tasks asked of it, it definitely lacks the finesse and feel of a more expensive machine. The upshot is that everyone heads for the other milling machine first and the Axminster one only gets used when at busy times. That’s not to have a pop at Axminster by saying there milling machine is no good, especially given the relative price, but more to illustrate there is a tangible difference. Yes, any half decent engineer worth his salt can compensate but the need to compensate itself makes the experience less pleasurable. Sometimes the small things like rattling fixtures or excessive and unajustable backlash in feed screws, or slides that tighten at one end regardless of the adjusting screws, all help destroy one’s confidence in the accuracy of the machine. For those on a budget, I appreciate that cost is a big player so as someone else mentioned, doing some homework and choosing the right product is essential.

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Posted by KWIL on 05/08/2010 12:17:02:
Who has been the longest in that particular business area?  WARCO and Chester, Chester has apparently a direct connection with their supplying factory.

 .

 

The question should be who has the best working relationship with the factory’s?

 

One of the hardest things to find out in China is who ACTUALLY makes the product?  There are many trading companies who say they do but don’t. If you go to any of the large shows in Canton or Shanghai you can spot the trading companies easily by what they are selling.

 

A manufacturer will only have his products on the stands and glossy leaflets which always show the factory, usually with rows of CNC’s etc.

A trading company will have a variety of products because they are acting as agents for others, so they may have a few lathes, leaflets on mobile cranes and chemical products.

 

All the larger sellers, Warco, Chester, Arc, Axminster have direct connections with the relevant factories, it’s only the ebay sellers who deal mail order with trading companies.

 

John S.

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

There are of course small industreal mills available for about half you would pay for a new western one ie UK USA EU area, they do make some really good gear,although if I could afford to I would buy British or similar. The best of the buyers here tend to buy of the factory floor, so they can see the item right from the beginning.Ian S C

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

Much further up this thread someone commented:

 

“If all these Chinese machines are so brilliant, why are the mags full of articles on how to improve them to the standards we previously took for granted?”

 

 If you look at MEs from about 1946 to 2000, you’ll find an uncountable number of articles on how to improve the ML7 series of lathes. Even such folk as George Thomas had criticisms of them.

 

The reason the mags are now full of Chinese lathe ‘improvement’ articles is because they  are now more numerous, or at least more likely to be owned by model engineers interested in making their own accessories etc.

 

Neil

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