What Did You Do Today (2017)

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

So the Blacksmith in his Forge is no longer desirable in the work set up? I have had enough devisive situation between Artisan and intellectual highly paper trained individuals. So much so that I have been described as, 'Not to suffer fools gladly' Many times I have designed, produced and presented work as the intellectuals are still deciding which way to go.

There will always be room for Artisans as many designers have never used a machine but can write Data for a machine to carry it out, in fact they will never touch a piece of metal before or after. Taking on Uni. techs. was one of the biggest walls I have ever had to climb to get them to look at things the way we did and carry the tasks out to conclusion.

A title or status does not equate to ability in any way as mostly learnt on paper. Hands on and get dirty and experience make up 90% of ability. Reason things out and apply the best way/method and the right materiel to use.

[Barnaby WildeParticipant @barnabywilde70941]

Posted by Clive Hartland on 25/08/2017 18:36:06:

So the Blacksmith in his Forge is no longer desirable in the work set up? I have had enough devisive situation between Artisan and intellectual highly paper trained individuals. So much so that I have been described as, 'Not to suffer fools gladly' Many times I have designed, produced and presented work as the intellectuals are still deciding which way to go.

There will always be room for Artisans as many designers have never used a machine but can write Data for a machine to carry it out, in fact they will never touch a piece of metal before or after. Taking on Uni. techs. was one of the biggest walls I have ever had to climb to get them to look at things the way we did and carry the tasks out to conclusion.

A title or status does not equate to ability in any way as mostly learnt on paper. Hands on and get dirty and experience make up 90% of ability. Reason things out and apply the best way/method and the right materiel to use.

I remember a method of defining character traits that employers commonly used in the 90's. IIRC "does not suffer fools gladly" featured at both ends of a certain scale. The desirable end of that scale was called a Q1, someone who is dominant & aggressive. The opposite end was a Q4, someone who is submissive & hostile.

You may not like my assessment, but I have to place you as a Q4.

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

I earned my living in engineering for a long long time, encompassing industries as varied as steam turbines and nuclear decommissioning. I've never come across any company which employed a blacksmith

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Clive Hartland on 25/08/2017 18:36:06:

…

I have had enough devisive situation between Artisan and intellectual highly paper trained individuals.

…

I'm with you on that one Brother! Your eloquent post highlights beautifully the problem I was on about.

It's not good when an education system drives wedges between people who need to cooperate in the workplace. Of course individual skills are valuable but most work is teamwork. Public School men in Top Hats despising Grammar School men in Bowlers who despise Secondary Modern men in Flat Caps and vice versa is not a recipe for success.

I apologise if the post upset you. It was certainly not my intention. I respect Clive Hartland and all his works!

Dave

[Ian HewsonParticipant @ianhewson99641]

Never had or will have respect for a Q1, they never last long and do not get the best out of people in my humble opinion!

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Posted by duncan webster on 26/08/2017 00:02:38:

. I've never come across any company which employed a blacksmith

Of course you didn't. He was an "Elevated Temperature Resistant Materials Deformation Specialist".

I remember when the time came to decide the colour of the front panels for a 19" rack of electronics all the managers appeared with a view and the decision took days of meetings. The previous rack had ended up gold plated. I kid you not a gold plated rack (for a UAE customer). I've still got one of the spare panels somewhere waiting for that special project.

What is needlework called now – Compliant Materials? Is cooking Consumable Materials?

[NJHParticipant @njh]

Come on guys

It's the Bank holiday, the sun is shining, the birds are singing and all is right with the world. Get out into your sheds, find the biggest bit of steel bar that you have, clamp it in your vice, and cut a slice off it with your (hand operated!) hacksaw. All your angst will disappear in the joy of "proper" metalwork !

Norman

[mechman48Participant @mechman48]

… Is cooking Consumable Materials?…

​Catering consumables technical dept…

Geo.

[Roderick JenkinsParticipant @roderickjenkins93242]

I've often wondered why Denford emphasised that their little CNC machines were suitable for "resistant materials". Hello, it's a milling machine… Now I know

Rod

[mark smith 20Participant @marksmith20]

Posted by duncan webster on 26/08/2017 00:02:38:

I earned my living in engineering for a long long time, encompassing industries as varied as steam turbines and nuclear decommissioning. I've never come across any company which employed a blacksmith

Well there was a resident blacksmith with forge and all , at Sellafield nuclear Plant when i was serving an apprenticeship in the early 1980`s..

Edited By mark smith 20 on 26/08/2017 12:35:53

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

Posted by duncan webster on 26/08/2017 00:02:38:

I earned my living in engineering for a long long time, encompassing industries as varied as steam turbines and nuclear decommissioning. I've never come across any company which employed a blacksmith

The U.K army seem to have them, albeit described slightly differently: **LINK**

Michael W

Edited By Michael-w on 26/08/2017 12:46:34

[Steve PaveyParticipant @stevepavey65865]

Posted by Bazyle on 26/08/2017 11:08:23:

Posted by duncan webster on 26/08/2017 00:02:38:

. I've never come across any company which employed a blacksmith

Of course you didn't. He was an "Elevated Temperature Resistant Materials Deformation Specialist".

I remember when the time came to decide the colour of the front panels for a 19" rack of electronics all the managers appeared with a view and the decision took days of meetings. The previous rack had ended up gold plated. I kid you not a gold plated rack (for a UAE customer). I've still got one of the spare panels somewhere waiting for that special project.

What is needlework called now – Compliant Materials? Is cooking Consumable Materials?

'Needlework' is called Textiles Technology. 'Cooking' is Food Technology. As well as Resistant Materials Technology there are also Systems and Control Technology courses offered at GCSE level, and a more in-depth engineering course that schools can also offer if they choose. All the Technology courses are heavily biased towards industrial production – as an example you will be unlikely to learn how to bake a Victoria sponge in Food Technology, but you will learn about commercial bread production (including the science behind it – yeast and sugar, effect of salt, gluten and protein etc etc).

Having taught Resistant Materials, Systems and Control and Engineering at both GCSE and at A level, it is clear that those decrying these subjects and the present day teaching of them know little or nothing about them or what they aim to achieve. To gain an A grade in any of them would demand an ability to think and reason to a level that was just not required in the old days (when I took my GCE in Engineering Workshop Theory and Practice). It would also require an ability to develop a design, plan and make it using both manual, CAD and CAM methods, to critically evaluate it, and propose modifications. For a 15-16 year old that is a tall order, and more than was demanded from most of us old farts when we were that age.

[Swarf, Mostly!Participant @swarfmostly]

Posted by Michael-w on 26/08/2017 12:44:46:

Posted by duncan webster on 26/08/2017 00:02:38:

I earned my living in engineering for a long long time, encompassing industries as varied as steam turbines and nuclear decommissioning. I've never come across any company which employed a blacksmith

The U.K army seem to have them, albeit described slightly differently: **LINK**

Michael W

Edited By Michael-w on 26/08/2017 12:46:34

When my Grandfather was discharged from the Army (in 1888 and on medical grounds) his rank was 'Farrier Sergeant' but then he was in the 5th Irish Lancers.

Best regards,

Swarf, Mostly!

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Michael-w on 26/08/2017 12:44:46:

Posted by duncan webster on 26/08/2017 00:02:38:

I earned my living in engineering for a long long time, encompassing industries as varied as steam turbines and nuclear decommissioning. I've never come across any company which employed a blacksmith

The U.K army seem to have them, albeit described slightly differently: **LINK**

Michael W

Edited By Michael-w on 26/08/2017 12:46:34

My maternal grandfather was an RAF coppersmith.

Neil

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

Posted by Steve Pavey on 26/08/2017 13:20:36:

Having taught Resistant Materials, Systems and Control and Engineering at both GCSE and at A level, it is clear that those decrying these subjects and the present day teaching of them know little or nothing about them or what they aim to achieve. To gain an A grade in any of them would demand an ability to think and reason to a level that was just not required in the old days (when I took my GCE in Engineering Workshop Theory and Practice). It would also require an ability to develop a design, plan and make it using both manual, CAD and CAM methods, to critically evaluate it, and propose modifications. For a 15-16 year old that is a tall order, and more than was demanded from most of us old farts when we were that age.

Yes I agree. It takes very little talent or effort to make ignorant and sarcy comments about something of which you have only superficial knowledge. But it seems to be very much par for the course these days, not only for "social media" but also (depressingly, literally) the gutter press like the Daily Mail / Express that drip poison in the ears of the mass public day in day out.

We get some of the byproduct here eg in the form of yawnworthy rants about "elf and safety" that are trotted out at the merest drop of a hat. In this example, if you bother to check out the statistics, one very positive outcome of H&S regulations has been a steady and significant reduction in industrial accidents and fatalities over the last few decades ie during our working lives. Obviously there are plenty of incompetent jobsworths out there trying to make our lives grind to a halt but that doesn't require us to go back to the days when you took your life in your hands to earn a crust.

I must admit I was a bit puzzled when I first heard of "resistant materials" but given what is covered in the curriculum, perhaps the cynics might try to suggest a better alternative rather than simply harrumphing and guffawing. As I said, it seems to take no obvious talent and nobody is any the better for it.

Murray

[roy entwistleParticipant @royentwistle24699]

Swarf Mostly. Farrier and Blacksmith. Two entirely different trades

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

I worked in a car factory all my life and we had a blacksmith, bricklayers, carpenters, plumbers, pipe fitters, welders, jig fitters, toolmakers, motor rewinders, electricians, millwrights, installation electricians, heavy gang, tin smiths, experimental sheet metal, and gardeners.

Mike

[martin perman 1Participant @martinperman1]

We used to have a blcksmith near us who made shoes and shod horses,was he a horse smith or a black farrier, sending this from the great Dorset steam fair where I’m displaying my stationary engines.

Martin P

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Posted by NJH on 26/08/2017 11:26:30:

Come on guys

It's the Bank holiday, the sun is shining, the birds are singing and all is right with the world. Get out into your sheds, find the biggest bit of steel bar that you have, clamp it in your vice, and cut a slice off it with your (hand operated!) hacksaw. All your angst will disappear in the joy of "proper" metalwork !

Norman

Hacksaw in this heat! Sitting drinking afternoon tea is hot enough. Oh sorry, you're in Devon, has it stopped raining yet?

[NJHParticipant @njh]

Rain – what's that?

Is it that stuff which means we don't have to go out each evening with a watering can? 😎

( I guess I may regret that remark – better get the wellies etc lined up! )

Norman

[Swarf, Mostly!Participant @swarfmostly]

Posted by roy entwistle on 26/08/2017 15:16:28:

Swarf Mostly. Farrier and Blacksmith. Two entirely different trades

Hi there, Roy,

They can't have been all that different – here's his post demob career:

Post-Military Life.

Occupation:

1891, Shoeing smith (Census),
1896, Blacksmith (Marriage Certificate)
1901, Blacksmith (Census),
1910, Blacksmith Journeyman (Death Certificate).

Family tradition has it that he made the weather vane on the Hampton Water Works.

Best regards,

Swarf, Mostly!

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

A farrier would say he's a blacksmith with additional skills in horses.

A blacksmith would say a farrier is a blacksmith who can only do horses.

[mechman48Participant @mechman48]

When I served my apprenticeship, back in the 60's, ( steel works ) there was a blacksmiths shop attached at the end of the fitting shop & all apprentices were required to spend some time in there leaning the 'black art' of material deformation using the forge & compressed air driven hammer… one step up from the steam driven version… it certainly gave you a good insight into heat treatment of different metals, specially when you were always hardening & tempering chisels for the fitters, & apprentice test pieces, ( good watching the colours change ). Many a poker end, handle, & spiral shank / gate finials came out of that little shop ( before turned plastic became the vogue for handles ). One thing I learned sharpish… make sure that the metal you were forging was 'flat' on the air hammers block, otherwise you soon knew about it!… …

'those were the days my friend, we thought they'd never end, for ever & a day, we'd live the life we choose… hmmm, where have I heard that before…

​George.

[norman valentineParticipant @normanvalentine78682]

Fifteen or so years ago when I was living in Kenya I employed two men, and they were really men, To dig a hole ten feet deep by ten feet diameter into rock. They used chisels and hammers, at the end of each day they went to the local blacksmith to get their chisels beaten back into shape and rehardened. It took them three weeks to complete the task. I did not have it in my heart to point out that the hole tapered down to only six feet diameter at the bottom.

[HacksawParticipant @hacksaw]

A farrier is always a blacksmith , a blacksmith is not necessarily a farrier though .

A farrier won the live blacksmithing once at Royal Bath & West show ..and was heard to say to the group of blacksmiths at the prize giving " Oi! If there is anything you want to know about blacksmithig, just ask a farrier …" ( before legging it ! )

I made a Norfolk latch in 35 minutes

A barefoot trimmer is neither..

[Author]

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