Welding Gas

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

When I was at a small country High School(as a pupil) up near Auckland in the early 1960s, our science lab used an acetylene generator, no mess and it worked well in a normal Bunsen burner. Acetylene generators were commonly used in the days before electricity in NZ for gas lighting. Ian S C

[MICHAEL WILLIAMSParticipant @michaelwilliams41215]

(1) Systems using mains powered electrolytic gas generators and matched torches have appeared and disappeared several times in my lifetime . Never had hands on myself – anyone ever tried them ??

(2) How do the regular safety checks get done if people have personally owned gas bottles ??

MikeW

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

The small sparklets bulbs are too small – they barely fill the CO2 tank once. I use the larger airgun ones for my are rifle, but they are the wrong size for my engine filler adaptor.

The big bottles are much better, if I could get them.

>edit< It seems Argos do exchange cylinders.

Neil

Edited By Neil Wyatt on 17/02/2014 21:18:34

[FMESParticipant @fmes]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 17/02/2014 21:16:42:

The big bottles are much better, if I could get them.

Neil

Neil,

Might be worth having a word with your local pub landlord, one near me lends me a brewery Co2 bottle, I just pay for the gas.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 16/02/2014 21:04:13:

This reminds me, at the opposite end of the scale I have two refillable CO2 canisters as normally sold for Soda Stream (for a Gasparin CO2 motor). I haven't seen these for exchange in the supermarkets for years. Has anyone eny suggestions?

Neil

.

Neil,

The 35 litre cylinders were discontinued a few years back.

… I seem to recall it had something to do with the connections not being proprietary, and therefore being refillable by others

Apparently the newer 60 litre ones [which presumably have special connectors] are available on exchange.

MichaelG.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Darn, I wonder what's involved in making an adaptor?

Neil

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 17/02/2014 22:03:05:

Darn, I wonder what's involved in making an adaptor?

.

Neil,

This is worth a look

MichaelG.

.

Edit: and this  [just a look, for academic interest, of course]

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 17/02/2014 22:32:05

[JohnFParticipant @johnf59703]

Neil, Re pub gas, you will find you will get a much better weld with argo shield gas, most pub gas contains a small amount of oxygen — just what you don't want when welding.

John

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi JohnF, it might surpise you that Argoshield contains Oxygen, 2% typically, which reduces the surface tension of the molten metal and also reduces the droplet size. Reducing the surface tension allows the weld bead to spread out or "wet in", lowering reinforcement height. It not only uses less weding wire, thus lowering the cost, but it also reduces the stress at the toe of the weld where cracks can occur.

Argoshield should not be used to weld "L" grade stainless steels, but Argoshield Light may be used for standard stainless steels that are not in critical applications.

Regards Nick.

[FMESParticipant @fmes]

This is the sort of thing I was referring to http://yorkshire-co2gas.co.uk/ and they take a standard BOC regulator for a welder.

I use this for general steel welding.

(Edit to add link correctly)

Edited By Lofty76 on 18/02/2014 06:51:04

[capnahabParticipant @capnahab]

At risk of answering my own post.

Some telephone research for Leeds , – maybe other suppliers are different.

Allbee acetylene cylinder is £175.75 +vat to 'buy' with one filling . forgot to write down the cost of filling.

Albee oxygen cylinder is £147.50 +vat to buy the cylinder full.

Hobbyweld

acetylene – £160 deposit +60 filling.

oxygen – 60 deposit +24 filling.

The cylinders are different sizes between the 2 suppliers. I have come to the conclusion I can make do without.

re Michael Williams post about safety checks – what safety checks are getting done in my garage by BOC while the cylinders have sat there at vast expense for 5 years ?.

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Posted by Steve Withnell on 16/02/2014 21:29:49:

Air Liquide are now charging me £24 /month rental for their small size Oxy & Actylene bottles and they sent me a note a while back saying an acetylene refill would be £100…

That is outrageous! Across the channel small size bottles are purchaced and rent free and a recharge of 800 litres of acetylene is 67 € at the local DIY store.

I bought my kit by post and it was delivered by the village postman

Russell.

[ronan walshParticipant @ronanwalsh98054]

In ireland air products and boc had the market sewn up between them, the yearly rental on a bottle is a rip off , but if you wanted to mig or tig weld you had no choice but to go to them. There is a recently set up company called stargas who are selling the bottles , you buy the bottle outright. Extortionate gas and bottle charges spoil welding at home.

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

Russell, sounds as though an occasional trip to France should be on the list for anyone in UK who is interested in welding at home. Ian S C

[Boiler BriParticipant @boilerbri]

This thread is a couple of years old now, has anyone tried any of the suggested suppliers? If so what's your verdict?

I have a BOC set up ( sapphire ) and want to use it for my new boiler build, but this will depend on the regulators fitting the French stuff?

Brian

[nigel jones 5Participant @nigeljones5]

I use ennergas – propper cheap with no hidden rip offs!

[MattKParticipant @mattk47317]

I don't know what the rules are on this forum for mentioning another forum but if you google for "Volkszone Offer" there is a good offer with BOC. I got mine from a local welding supplier (Argoshield) for about £100 for a half size? cylinder with no rental but that was years ago and there is loads left.

[Roger VaneParticipant @rogervane67137]

I paid an initial deposit of £55 on my Adams Gas 9L/137 bar oxygen cylinder, plus £36 for the gas. Lasts for ages unless doing a big boiler job, and with pre-heating from a propane torch it is still an economical option – about a third of the way silver soldering a 5" A4 boiler and used just one fill so far.

Just had an exchange from the local agent for £36. That's it – no handling charge, delivery charge or annual rental, and when I've finished with the cylinder they give me my £55 back.

Better than the huge sums of money that I was paying Air Products for annual rental of a half cylinder. Very happy with this option.

Various gases and mixes available – http://www.adamsgas.co.uk/hobby-gas-welding

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

Quick update on welding gas prices in this spreadsheet (on my Google Drive). I've compared pure argon (for TIG welding) and 95% argon / 5% CO2 mix (for steel MIG, technically called MAG). I would prefer 20L bottles myself (4 – 5 cubic metres) but many suppliers only do the smaller 10L bottles with around 2 cubic metres / 2000 litres. For reference, the Y sized cylinder in the BOC Volkszone deal is 20L. The X size is 10L.

Seems there are literally dozens of companies offering rental-free gas. There are a couple of suppliers to be aware of, offering sneaky "deposits" that disappear over 3-5 years but usually these days deposits are fully returnable.

The BOC deal seems to make sense for many scenarios unless eg you will genuinely take more than a year to get though a bottle, in which case you've probably spent more on your armchair than your welder. Some deals are eye wateringly expensive and / or involve very sizable deposits.

Murray

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Yes my armchair was petty expensive Murray. Way more than the welder. Cintique usually is but they last a long time.

The problem for some is that they may not spend much time in it. Not much time welding either. Which way to go is likely to be a tough call for many.

Thanks for the post. It's interesting.

John

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[Mark RandParticipant @markrand96270]

Are BOC doing the Volkszone deal?

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

BOC's normal charges are

Y Gas £67.85, Rent £99.40 with 3 and 5 year options that save a bit. Evironment charge £079, Delivery £52.55, Collect £14.40

X Gas £51.30, Rent £77.90 same options. Rest the same.

Pureshield argon taken from their 1 May 2016 price list. VAT to be added to all. They will refund pro rata on rental. One complaint I have heard is deliveries – when they choose to arrive not when it's wanted. For most of us though it looks like a local depot is the best option.

It would be interesting to know what the deal prices are on X cylinders. Muzzer maybe ?

They also offer 300 bar cylinders. E33 for instance seems to be the smallest which is

Gas £82.59, Rent £115.70 no 3 and 5 year rent options.

They also give monthly rentals. X £7.05, Y £8.90 and E33 £10.15

They say that they have re introduced the long term option on small cylinders. As they will refund pro rata and only take part payments on the anniversary it may be a cheaper rental option.

The price for an X on the web is a little bit more. They do have web sales. The price list refers to applications in writing so may need to get the fountain pen out. A laser may not be good enough.

Forgot to mention that going on the list I'll bet Chorley do plenty of business.

John

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Edited By Ajohnw on 11/01/2017 11:57:06

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

It seems that the deal is not available on X in puresheild. Only Y.

You need to be a hobbyist and establish and account. Much to my amazement the application can be obtained pretty quickly.

Murray will be pleased that I will be going with BOC.

John

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[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

It's possible to organise an account via the chat on BOC's site. All done electronically even including a signed direct debit. I don't think any other supplier can get any where near the Volks prices. It would take a lot of years on rental and even then it might not break even.

I started filling in the web form but it looked like I was going to get a bottle immediately. It's too cold to work where I can weld at the moment and while the garage doesn't leak any more it needs some sorting out.No heating either. I asked and the lady said she would sort this out as soon as I sign up. I'll make sure she does. She entered a W sized bottle on the form. No way. Even the Y's are pretty heavy.

One odd aspect is called docusign. It's some method of signing a direct debit on the web. They offer a number of different signatures based on your name. If none of them suite paint your own with a mouse. Then agree to it's use. They say adopt it. Just hope there isn't some way that they can get my bank to change my real signature to what I can paint.

John

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[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Ajohnw on 13/01/2017 17:01:40:

… One odd aspect is called docusign.

.

**LINK**

https://www.docusign.co.uk/

MichaelG.

[Author]

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