Warco WM250 Lathe and Warco WM18 Milling machine (Advice please)

[STK2008Participant @stk2008]

Yeah I understand about the sqaure being true but tbh the fact I only get 0.002" when moving the whole Z axis up and down shows the sqaure is some what good other wise both tests would have been bad if it was the sqaure.

I did then do a cut as every one told me to do LOL and it showed clear as day saw toothing and I could measure the toothing using my verdict.

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

It depends what you're in model engineering for. I do it for my own amusement and to make pretty gadgets and (to be absolutely honest) toys to amuse and amaze grandchildren, family and friends.

I know someone who collects various machine tools and makes nothing but replacement or enhancement components and subassemblies for them, therefore nothing that a non-engineer could make sense of. He reminds me of hi-fi buffs who spend all their time in detail analysis of the output from their systems, and never listen to any music.

There are always compromises in engineering. There are people who think they're perfectionists who say they don't compromise, but the fact is that they're just making different compromises – mainly at cost of time and expense. And many products improve incrementally with time, so some mass-market items now are much better than the most expensive top-of-the-range goods of 40 or 50 years ago.

The good workman doesn't necessary make his tools right – he circumvents their limitations to achieve his objective irrespective.

So if the OP is going to do nothing with his machine tools but test them, I think that he's unlikely to achieve his objective until he can move far beyond the budgetary range he's in.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Even if the square were out there is still a 10 fold difference in head to quill movement.

Not just drilling affected but as you change tooling that may be a different length you will get issues, and even milling is affected as the other photos showed as the quill is not parallel to vertical the side and end of any cutter will also be off.

[DanielParticipant @daniel]

Bed time for me folks . . . .

But we're not done yet !!

Will "test" my quill feed tomorrow.

Best,

Daniel

[STK2008Participant @stk2008]

Thats my point the tolerance I got when moving the whole head was awesome and I was very happy with it but the quill come on it was miles out.

 

ohh did you say you have the WM18 sorry cant remember now LOL.

 

Keep us posted on that one would be interesting to see

Edited By STK2008 on 17/05/2018 20:57:58

[Ian Skeldon 2Participant @ianskeldon2]

STK if the head was true to the table as you have already stated, you should not and would not have got a saw tooth cut if milling in a conventional manner. That could only happen if the head was not trammed,or if you had lowered the quill, maybe you did the cut with the quill lowered but you haven't made that clear.

If I was paying hundreds of pounds for a product with a specification, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect the product to be inside that specification, otherwise whats the point?

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

If the quill’s so far out front to rear, why doesn’t the clock finger run off the blade in the side to side video?

[Ian Skeldon 2Participant @ianskeldon2]

Posted by Mick B1 on 17/05/2018 21:00:48:
If the quill's so far out front to rear, why doesn't the clock finger run off the blade in the side to side video?

Something not right here…….

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Jason,

I get your point now.

STK2008: lovely puzzle. I guess the only way we could all figure it out is if we got a chance to go over to Mr.Warrens and have a look over a brew.

Good luck with your purchase from Amadeal, but don't expect them or any other seller to do all the checks..

[Brian RutherfordParticipant @brianrutherford79058]

I have read most of this thread with interest having a warco lathe and toolco mill. I agree with most of the views expressed by the original poster i.e. he has a right to a machine that is totally in specification. What i don't agree with is the claims made by suppliers that that skilled engineers test each machine and fill in a test sheet that shows the results when in fact the tests are "switch on and check it runs".

[EmgeeParticipant @emgee]

I fail to understand why one machine supplier is answering on behalf of another supplier and then introducing a third supplier into the post.
I'm sure Mr Warren is quite capable of answering comments publicly if he wishes but believe he is correct to deal with the purchaser of the machine directly and not via any forum.

Is it the case that all are providing test reports with machines that do not reflect the accuracy of the machine ?

It was clear by the tests conducted the problem was directly related to the quill bore being out of alignment with the column so I don't understand why Warco didn't agree at an earlier date to replace the machine.
However credit to them for finally agreeing the return.

Emgee

[David Standing 1Participant @davidstanding1]

Posted by Brian Rutherford on 17/05/2018 21:42:34:

I have read most of this thread with interest having a warco lathe and toolco mill. I agree with most of the views expressed by the original poster i.e. he has a right to a machine that is totally in specification. What i don't agree with is the claims made by suppliers that that skilled engineers test each machine and fill in a test sheet that shows the results when in fact the tests are "switch on and check it runs".

As I understand it with Warco (and possibly other suppliers) the test sheet is filled out at the factory in the Far East, not in the UK.

Testing in the UK is confined to seeing if it runs.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Is it your dream job to poke around fifty lathes a day conscientiously making measurements and risk your job by actually telling your boss one is out of spec? On day two you will be bored shitless and just bang out the forms. On day 3 when the foreign customer has finished his inspection the boss will assign you to a real job that earns him money and have a secretary sign the fifty forms in her tea break.
Get real.

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

I voiced my scepticism about the value of these kinds of inspection reports on page 5 of this thread. Some people seem to be more accepting than I am of their apparent worthlessness. If tolerances are routinely not actually measured, and the readings supplied on the certificate are plucked out of the air then in my view an inexcusable deception is being carried out against the customer. Far better not to issue the machine with any certificate at all. Factual, quantifiable deceptions of this kind are of a different order of seriousness from venial deceptions such as saying a machine is "precision made" to "rigorous standards" when it actually has more inaccuracy built into it than most users would be prepared to put up with.

[Martin Hamilton 1Participant @martinhamilton1]

I was told by a well known UK Chinese machine supplier that the accuracy certificate is done at the factory in China, the certificate is only relevant on the day the test was carried out. Beyond that day they are not responsible for any inaccuracy as its beyond their control what happens to the machine during transport. Sounds like a good get out clause to me making any certificate not worth the paper it's printed on. Especially when you here of some machines that have to be rebuilt to get things in line, this does not correspond to the accuracy certificate issued to these particular machines. These UK suppliers can't possibly check any machines for accuracy other than lifting the lid on the case & plugging the machine in to make sure it runs, they still have the grease covering the machines & their is no sign off anyone touching or moving anything on the machine.

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

A certificate of accuracy should not be issued to the consumer at all if it becomes completely invalid the day after the inspection was carried out. If a certificate is still issued despite it being very probably invalid the day after it's issued then the consumer should be clearly informed of this at the time of purchase. Consumers of these machines are not informed in this way, afaik.

The rights and the wrongs of all this seem pretty clear to me. To give an analogy, when a hospital buys a blood pressure monitor complete with a certificate of calibration I would imagine the monitor is not sold with a note saying the hospital must expect the calibration certificate to be invalid the day after it was issued, whether or not there is any intervening transport of the monitor. To move the analogy a little closer to our own situation here, I would imagine the hospital is not simply left to find out for itself (possibly by the death of inaccurately monitored patients) that the certificate was of no validity all along.

[jimmy bParticipant @jimmyb]

I have bought 4 new lathes and new mill, from 3 different suppliers.

The test forms have either been a photocopy or just blank in every case. I have had them "filled" in for chucks etc.

The only ones I trust are the ones that come with expensive measuring kit, (such as Mitutoyo stuff).

I have to honest and say I never check anything until a problem rears its head!

Jim

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Emgee on 17/05/2018 22:25:02:

I fail to understand why one machine supplier is answering on behalf of another supplier and then introducing a third supplier into the post.
I'm sure Mr Warren is quite capable of answering comments publicly if he wishes but believe he is correct to deal with the purchaser of the machine directly and not via any forum.

Is it the case that all are providing test reports with machines that do not reflect the accuracy of the machine ?

It was clear by the tests conducted the problem was directly related to the quill bore being out of alignment with the column so I don't understand why Warco didn't agree at an earlier date to replace the machine.
However credit to them for finally agreeing the return.

Emgee

I wanted to know Warcos side of the story, and I put up what they said. They didn't tell me to. I got their permission to put up what they said. If you look back prior to my post, the whole thing was one sided. Warco simply said that it was fixed in the way it was and that was it. Sorry but right or wrong difficult for either to prove. It is still not clear if there was a problem with the quill bore, and I say this with respect to STKs observations. STK could be right and so could Warco. STK could be wrong and so could Warco.

The introduction of a third party in the post is because STK said that he is now considering similar products from Amadeal.

Ketan at ARC.

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Bazyle on 17/05/2018 23:31:32:

Is it your dream job to poke around fifty lathes a day conscientiously making measurements and risk your job by actually telling your boss one is out of spec? On day two you will be bored shitless and just bang out the forms. On day 3 when the foreign customer has finished his inspection the boss will assign you to a real job that earns him money and have a secretary sign the fifty forms in her tea break.
Get real.

Bazyl,

Sometimes I have to agree with you. However, I have seen SIEGs inspectors and supervisors do this job day in day out, and these inspectors and I would find it difficult to seriously consider and accept your comments. However, you are entitled to your comments and opinion. Still, I always believe that there is room for improvement, be it in SIEGs factory or any other factories making hobby machines, as some machines still slip through.

ARC had the option of taking the inspection certificate with machines from SIEG, but we refused. The inspection report for a light hobby machine is only good as the day the machine came off the assembly line in the factory. There after many other handling, storage, transport, installation factors come into play, which in turn can have an impact on the inspection figures before the machine leaves the factory. The only way to get near perfect results is if a seller was to supply a 'machine tool fitter' with the machine at the time of delivery, which is simply out of question. So, it has to be a matter of dealing with product by personal knowledge and ability. otherwise, get on with the work and see and deal with issues if and when they present themselves.

Like ARC, many sellers do not provide inspection certificates for such machines. For those who do, it is up to them to deal with issues which arise from issuing such documents. Right or wrong is up to the seller and buyer to decide.

Ketan at ARC.

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Martin Hamilton 1 on 18/05/2018 00:09:01:

I was told by a well known UK Chinese machine supplier that the accuracy certificate is done at the factory in China, the certificate is only relevant on the day the test was carried out. Beyond that day they are not responsible for any inaccuracy as its beyond their control what happens to the machine during transport. Sounds like a good get out clause to me making any certificate not worth the paper it's printed on. Especially when you here of some machines that have to be rebuilt to get things in line, this does not correspond to the accuracy certificate issued to these particular machines. These UK suppliers can't possibly check any machines for accuracy other than lifting the lid on the case & plugging the machine in to make sure it runs, they still have the grease covering the machines & their is no sign off anyone touching or moving anything on the machine.

Exactly Martin. But using the words: 'not responsible for any inaccuracy' is a little wrong to say. To say that 'its beyond our immediate control….' is more accurate. So, pointless to provide an accuracy certificate. It is not an invalid get out clause. Most UK sellers including ARC, simply plug in and check it runs and sounds as it should, looking out for obvious known visual faults. This is well documented on many threads on this forum. Some big sellers don't even do this.

New people on here automatically think doom and gloom and oh dear, but the reality is that there are thousands of cheap hobby machines out them run by many owners at varied levels of satisfaction. If the industry was so gloom and doom, Warco would have been out of business a long time ago.

Ketan at ARC.

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Bill Phinn on 18/05/2018 01:10:13:

A certificate of accuracy should not be issued to the consumer at all if it becomes completely invalid the day after the inspection was carried out. If a certificate is still issued despite it being very probably invalid the day after it's issued then the consumer should be clearly informed of this at the time of purchase. Consumers of these machines are not informed in this way, afaik.

The rights and the wrongs of all this seem pretty clear to me. To give an analogy, when a hospital buys a blood pressure monitor complete with a certificate of calibration I would imagine the monitor is not sold with a note saying the hospital must expect the calibration certificate to be invalid the day after it was issued, whether or not there is any intervening transport of the monitor. To move the analogy a little closer to our own situation here, I would imagine the hospital is not simply left to find out for itself (possibly by the death of inaccurately monitored patients) that the certificate was of no validity all along.

Sorry Bill,

I would respectfully suggest that your analogy is a little flawed, when it comes to hobby machines. I can only agree that there is an issue between seller and buyer if a certificate is issued and depended on, but I have explained earlier why ARC would not follow that route.

To compare a hobby machine with a hospital blood pressure monitor would be wrong on many levels, and a grave exaggeration. To compare a hobby machine with a similar hobby machine at a similar price would be more appropriate.

Ketan at ARC.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by Mick B1 on 17/05/2018 21:00:48:
If the quill's so far out front to rear, why doesn't the clock finger run off the blade in the side to side video?

With 0.025" runout I've not seen a square with a blade that thin so quite possible for finget to stay in contact.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by Ian Skeldon 2 on 17/05/2018 20:58:06:

STK if the head was true to the table as you have already stated, you should not and would not have got a saw tooth cut if milling in a conventional manner. That could only happen if the head was not trammed,or if you had lowered the quill, maybe you did the cut with the quill lowered but you haven't made that clear.

Ian, the column seems true enough to the table as can be seen when the head is moved but the whole point of this threads once the problem was found  is that the spindle/quill was out of tram in the front/back (nod) direction and there is no easy way to correct this. If the column to base joint was shimmed to get the quill running true then any head movement would be at an angle to the table.

99% of these small mills a cut is generally put on using the quill as I stated earlier as that is where you have the fine feed scale not by moving the head, some you can't even use with small cutters unless the quill is extended out quite a way.

J

Edited By JasonB on 18/05/2018 07:49:12

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

It's a pity that the Warco guys did not spend a few mins checking over the mill when they went to collect but it seems the decision not to go with Warco had already been made.

The reason I asked Ketan for more details is that it would be very helpful as the next time someone comes onto the forum with a similar problem they could be told what to do to correct it particularly if it was such a simple adjustment according to Warco.

[pa4c pa4cParticipant @pa4cpa4c85075]

"A certificate of accuracy should not be issued to the consumer at all if it becomes completely invalid the day after the inspection was carried out."

MOT certificate anyone?

[Author]

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