The Chocolate Fireguard as designed by Mercedes Benz

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Mick B1 on 30/04/2019 21:03:02:

Posted by pgk pgk on 30/04/2019 20:40:24:.

…

…

Dave'll soon come round when he can't get his cornflakes 'cos all the truck drivers are in chokey…

Curses, Mick has spotted a tiny flaw in my cunning plan.

Apart from cornflakes and perhaps a few other minor details, I'm still convinced locking everyone up is the answer…

[FMESParticipant @fmes]

Working alongside some of the staff from EDF energy, you tend to get involved in a lot of discussions regarding energy supplies and distribution.

The recent conversation revolved around the increasing use of electric vehicles and the additional demands that were already being placed on the grid.

The two main points raised were: 1, the availability of 'Economy 7' meters will be phased out as there will be no surplus of power during the off peak periods, and 2: the position of the government with regard to lost fuel duties from fossil fuel burning vehicles, the general concensus was that additional dudies (tax) would be placed on EV charging rates in order to recover the losses.

Think about adding another 40% cost (Based on current fuel duty) to eack KWH of charge time – plus VAT of course.

Regards

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Deleted

Edited By Mick B1 on 04/05/2019 09:53:10

[doubletopParticipant @doubletop]

Posted by FMES on 04/05/2019 09:31:49:…………………..

The two main points raised were: 1, the availability of 'Economy 7' meters will be phased out as there will be no surplus of power during the off peak periods, and 2: the position of the government with regard to lost fuel duties from fossil fuel burning vehicles, the general concensus was that additional dudies (tax) would be placed on EV charging rates in order to recover the losses.

Think about adding another 40% cost (Based on current fuel duty) to eack KWH of charge time – plus VAT of course.

Regards

I had asked the same question about the government’s loss of fuel tax as everybody switches over to EV's. It was pointed out to me that we already have a system working in New Zealand. We don't pay tax on diesel fuel but diesel vehicles are subject to Road User Charges. You pay in advance depending on the type of vehicle you own. In an attempt to encourage take up EV's don’t pay RUC at the moment but it would be easy to tag them on

https://www.nzta.govt.nz/assets/resources/road-user-charges/docs/road-user-charges-handbook.pdf

Removing the off-peak electricity charges will be the tip of the iceberg. The generation and power transmission infrastructure will need beefing up and that will need to be paid for. That will be by all users not just the EV's owners.

[mark costello 1Participant @markcostello1]

Over here,We had a Gal arrested for drunk driving 2 times within 15 minutes. We are cracking along here, Has to be a record. Bring back flogging and chain gangs I say. About 30 years ago I had seen a real chain gang in operation.

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

If memory serves there is a plan to require all eu vehicles be fitted with GPS locators… the obvious final reason being to charge road usage fees as well as more tracking of everyone (just in case they don't have a phone…)

pgk

[doubletopParticipant @doubletop]

Mandatory GPS trackers on vehicles opens up many possibilities

• Missing vehicle searches
• Road user charges
• Automatic speeding fines
• Automatic crash detection (tied to airbag triggers they'd know how major a crash was before anybody managed to get out of their cars)

Big Brother is certainly with us. The 'Thought Police" will be next

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Posted by FMES on 04/05/2019 09:31:49:

The two main points raised were: 1, the availability of 'Economy 7' meters will be phased out as there will be no surplus of power during the off peak periods, and 2: the position of the government with regard to lost fuel duties from fossil fuel burning vehicles, the general concensus was that additional dudies (tax) would be placed on EV charging rates in order to recover the losses.

Think about adding another 40% cost (Based on current fuel duty) to eack KWH of charge time – plus VAT of course.

Surely “smart meters” will simply replace E-7 meters? So no real change there. The availability of the cheap rate periods will just be transferred from one device to another. Simple, really and doesn’t need a lot of lengthy discussion I would have thought.

Most EV charging will (continue to) be carried out from domestic supplies. Only those with no home charging facilities will be affected – or those making longer journeys and needing a fast charge en route.

As above, the tax will be rendered on vehicles and mileage in the future. Home charging tax would surely hurt those with electric-only households – not a sensible plan.

I foresee people being more careful with how they use electricity, when statistics start to emerge from the most efficient users and the ‘don’t think mob’ who are wasteful and inconsiderate to the grid and other users.

[CirclipParticipant @circlip]

And don't buy a new Tesla 3. It may be environmentally friendly but will cost you £315 road tax after the first free year.

 Also, a mate was convinced that all the electrickery passing through a white meter was cheaper so he was going to have one fitted for his main supply.

 

Regards Ian.

Edited By Circlip on 05/05/2019 09:43:38

[FMESParticipant @fmes]

Posted by not done it yet on 05/05/2019 08:26:33:

Posted by FMES on 04/05/2019 09:31:49:

The two main points raised were: 1, the availability of 'Economy 7' meters will be phased out as there will be no surplus of power during the off peak periods, and 2: the position of the government with regard to lost fuel duties from fossil fuel burning vehicles, the general concensus was that additional dudies (tax) would be placed on EV charging rates in order to recover the losses.

Think about adding another 40% cost (Based on current fuel duty) to eack KWH of charge time – plus VAT of course.

Surely “smart meters” will simply replace E-7 meters? So no real change there. The availability of the cheap rate periods will just be transferred from one device to another. Simple, really and doesn’t need a lot of lengthy discussion I would have thought.

Most EV charging will (continue to) be carried out from domestic supplies. Only those with no home charging facilities will be affected – or those making longer journeys and needing a fast charge en route.

As above, the tax will be rendered on vehicles and mileage in the future. Home charging tax would surely hurt those with electric-only households – not a sensible plan.

I foresee people being more careful with how they use electricity, when statistics start to emerge from the most efficient users and the ‘don’t think mob’ who are wasteful and inconsiderate to the grid and other users.

With regard to the Economy 7 meters, I should have been clearer – it would be the Economy 7 RATE that would be discontinued, as there would effectively be no 'off peak' period, this would add massive costs to many domestic users.

From a coleague that owns a Nissan Leaf with the uprated charging port, it already has a facility built in to meter its supply independently from the house, and would therefore be able to be costed seperately at a different rate to that of the domestic supply.

It was also mentioned that any VAT charged would be at 20% as per current fuel duty rate and Not 5% domestic supplies.

Regards

[FMESParticipant @fmes]

Posted by Circlip on 05/05/2019 09:40:37:

And don't buy a new Tesla 3. It may be environmentally friendly but will cost you £315 road tax after the first free year.

Also, a mate was convinced that all the electrickery passing through a white meter was cheaper so he was going to have one fitted for his main supply.

Regards Ian.

Edited By Circlip on 05/05/2019 09:43:38

Day rate is dearer than standard rate on a white meter, and night rate has been slowly catching up with it over the years

Regards

[CirclipParticipant @circlip]

No, the meter saga was about 20 years ago and it was to REPLACE the standard black supply meter.

Regards Ian.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

I can envisage lots of granny cables being used whenever possible. Plugged in any three pin socket avoimding any extra VAT on days when only a few kWh were needed to keep the battery topped up.

You were specifically vague in your posting by writing “availability’’ would be phased out. That might mean the current meter s would be used until it is time for the statutory meter change?

Leccy will still be cheaper overnight. The whole idea of smart meters is to encourage load transfers from peak load periods. Seems to mee as though that would fit the bill, precisely as a lower charging period.

[ZebethyalParticipant @zebethyal]

As of 2017, road tax for Hybrid and fully electric cars has changed. Previously they were tax free, now they are subject to road tax based on the purchase price of the vehicle.

As an example a Mitsubishi Outlander phev from 2016 or earlier, 4h or 4hs models are both tax free, however a 2017 4h attracts £135.00 and the 4hs attracts £455.00 road tax a year, both have exactly the same engine, however the purchase price of the 4hs is over the £40K threshold.

As already mentioned, even fully electric vehicles over £40K purchase price (including options) will be subject to road tax after the first 2 years of ownership currently levied at £320.00 a year.

Where is the incentive to buy an electric or hybrid car when you are hit for almost as much road tax as a petrol car?

[RMAParticipant @rma]

My BMW twin turbo Diesel….yes BMW, has a £20 per annum road tax. According to last year's Which report it has the cleanest Diesel engine in the world, but nothing would surprise me regarding tax increases from any government! Rest assured, whatever vehicle you have or will have, will be a revenue earner for the government present and future, whether it's petrol; Diesel; electric, or runs on chicken poo! They are usually stealth taxes and never mentioned at budget time.

I haven't changed the car at the normal time because of the uncertainty and residual value created by our government, so I'm hanging on and will go with the flow. There's nothing we can do about it, so why worry.

I watched a documentary the other day about the search for Atlantis, and they referred to the last time the ice age ended and sea level rose by 400 feet, I didn't see any vehicles in the film though! It's true that in congested cities, air pollution is a problem, but persecuting private car owners is not the solution. The truth is, the world is vastly overpopulated, but it's not PC to say that. Until all governments accept this and do something about it, we will continue to have these knee jerk 'solutions' for which the consumer always has to pay!

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

Maybe evolution will solve our problems even if we do nothing, the more we interfere the problems move on to something else. I see a five legged lamb was born recently, this is to be encouraged as long at the mint sauce supply holds up.

Mike

[ZebethyalParticipant @zebethyal]

You then have the ever expanding and multiplying Ultra Low Emission Zones that go out of their way to persecute Diesel car owners, unless your car is less than about 2 years old for a Diesel and around 10 years old for a petrol you are hit by this.

Currently only a big issue for the congestion charge area in Central London, but in 2 years time, this expands to just inside the M25 and then will no doubt expand further 2-3 years after that, with similar plans for Birmingham, Liverpool, Manchester, etc on the way.

Almost daily demonstrations by taxi drivers in Central London had no effect on this being brought in.

I am all for cleaner air, but alternatives need to be incentivised, currently they are just filling the pockets of car manufacturers and associated new car duties for the Government along with massive carbon footprint for manufacture and the waste from scrapping the old ones. Where is the increased investment in public transport to encourage people to use that over driving.

Taxes paid by road users on fuel are at least proportional to road usage and also relate to the efficiency of the vehicle being used, unlike road tax, where every owner of a particular vehicle type is taxed the same regardless of 5 mile a year or 50K miles a year usage.

[doubletopParticipant @doubletop]

Once everybody in the street is charging their vehicle when they get home the peak period will be at night and the daytime will be off peak.

As pgkpgk pointed out 35amps for an hour to do 21miles. lets say charge to do 100miles thats 44Kwh being drawn at night time, for one property. The cables will be glowing in the dark in the commuter belts

Edited By Doubletop on 07/05/2019 11:34:43

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Circlip on 05/05/2019 09:40:37:

And don't buy a new Tesla 3. It may be environmentally friendly but will cost you £315 road tax after the first free year.

Regards Ian.

Will people buying a car that costs between £44 and 60K depending on model worry about £30 a month on road tax?

[FMESParticipant @fmes]

Posted by Doubletop on 07/05/2019 11:32:23:

Once everybody in the street is charging their vehicle when they get home the peak period will be at night and the daytime will be off peak.

As pgkpgk pointed out 35amps for an hour to do 21miles. lets say charge to do 100miles thats 44Kwh being drawn at night time, for one property. The cables will be glowing in the dark in the commuter belts

Edited By Doubletop on 07/05/2019 11:34:43

My point exactly!

And what if you have two vehicles?

As I said – no more cheap rate leccy!!

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Posted by FMES on 07/05/2019 12:13:17:

Posted by Doubletop on 07/05/2019 11:32:23:

Once everybody in the street is charging their vehicle when they get home the peak period will be at night and the daytime will be off peak.

As pgkpgk pointed out 35amps for an hour to do 21miles. lets say charge to do 100miles thats 44Kwh being drawn at night time, for one property. The cables will be glowing in the dark in the commuter belts

Edited By Doubletop on 07/05/2019 11:34:43

My point exactly!

And what if you have two vehicles?

As I said – no more cheap rate leccy!!

Like I said – we gotta rewire the country.

That'll cost a more than just replacing the whole vehicle inventory.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Maybe, those on lower incomes will continue to drive polluting vehicles, (as long as "authority" allows ) while the "pollution free" ones will be company cars? (i.e. initial cost and subsequent battery replacement costs ) Perhaps "used" electric cars will have low residual value because of the cost of replacing the battery?

A while ago, at our Engineering Society, a chap from Lotus showed that fossil fuels provide the highest energy density of all currently available fuels, surpassing hydrogen and electricity by a huge margin.

(After all, the energy to produce and distribute the electricity and to produce the Hydrogen, has to come from somewhere ).

Currently, there seems to be little interest in reliable recurring natural forms of energy production, such as tidal or wave power, rather than intermittent and inconsistent wind power.

Even PV cells cannot maximise production, since sunshine all day, every day, cannot be guaranteed,

Having put the cat among the pigeons, I'll watch the results!

Howard

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Ha ha ha!

Posters seem to pick out the extremities to suit their case? Or don't know how the grid works? Or even much about EVs?

There are EVs out there costing less than the "luxury tax" band and travelling nearer to 5 miles for each kWh used by the vehicle. Only supercars will use leccy at the rate quoted (by whoever knows nowt about them, above).

Those that know realise that power consumption through the night is considerably less than at peak periods, sometimes over 20GW less. Do some simple maths on the subject before making up your stories, so you won't be laughed at.

In 10 years time an awful lot of places (business and domestic) will be using battery storage to mitigate the expensive peak period costs – and much of that will be recharged with renewable energy.

What we need is some forward thinking – and burning fossil fuels for road use is the past. Get used to it.

[FMESParticipant @fmes]

Posted by not done it yet on 07/05/2019 15:09:11:

Ha ha ha!

Posters seem to pick out the extremities to suit their case? Or don't know how the grid works? Or even much about EVs?

There are EVs out there costing less than the "luxury tax" band and travelling nearer to 5 miles for each kWh used by the vehicle. Only supercars will use leccy at the rate quoted (by whoever knows nowt about them, above).

Those that know realise that power consumption through the night is considerably less than at peak periods, sometimes over 20GW less. Do some simple maths on the subject before making up your stories, so you won't be laughed at.

In 10 years time an awful lot of places (business and domestic) will be using battery storage to mitigate the expensive peak period costs – and much of that will be recharged with renewable energy.

What we need is some forward thinking – and burning fossil fuels for road use is the past. Get used to it.

Seems to be only you laughing – touched a nerve did we?

I'm waiting for the fuel cell – If the likes of EDF and the AA are getting worried (nationally published articles) it will be the way forward without relying on an antiquated grid system.

This is also good for a watch as well **LINK**

Regards

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

This will generate heat rather than electricity!

My 1 litre, Euro 6 compliant, small petrol fuelled motor car will use about 2/3 of its fuel capacity to carry me from East Anglia, to the Welsh border, and back.

Until battery technology improves, I know of no pure battery electric (non hybrid ) car capable of half matching this bottom of the range motor car.

Any takers, until batteries improve; as they surely will?

Being an early adopter, brings costs and difficulties. Development provides the solutions.

Howard

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