The Chocolate Fireguard as designed by Mercedes Benz

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by pgk pgk on 13/05/2019 09:16:58:

The trouble is that the true cost of motoring isn't just fuel and oil.

…

Perhaps of more interest is whether Martin P actually manaed a higher average speed at 70mph cruise than at 60 mph cruise – possibly since the motorways should be quieter Oop North. When I was regulalrly driving from here to bedford in my GT86 – 160 miles – then the best time i ever managed was 2.5 hrs once only, an average of 3.5 hrs and a worst case of nearly 6hrs

…

Us older chaps tend to assume that waste disposal is free, actually it's not. Treating COPD and asthma costs money. More worrying is motoring's contribution to climate change. Happy is the man who fixes global warming by denying it, or imagining it will only make warmer winters! Time will tell, but the cost of global warming could be off the scale. Full cost of motoring should include the cost of damage done by what comes out the exhaust.

Though interesting, chaps reporting good MPG on long distance trips don't alter the price of fish much. It's the average fuel efficiency of all motorists over all journeys that matters, not individual experience. At the other end of the efficiency scale my best 18 mile commute to work took 28 minutes (avg 38.6mph). But in seven years, I only got a clear run twice. 40 minutes was a good day (27mph) and the mode was 58 minutes (18.6mph) Worst ever was 2 hours 20 minutes (7.7mph). This is what happens when journeys force you and all the other worker bees along busy roads through town centres. Sad creature I am, I counted 27 traffic light controlled junctions and pedestrian crossings between home and work, and on a bad day all of them would stop me. On top of that, almost anything else would cause delays. I've been blocked by roadworks, rain, accidents, breakdowns, bad parking, inconsiderate drivers, lorries shedding their loads, bike races, marathon runners, xmas lights, and royalty. Don't get me started on the effect of delays on my chance of finding a space to park! I suggest nasty commute driving is far more common than enjoyment of the open road. Being retired, I've almost forgotten how awful most driving is.

I suggest electric cars shine at the difficult low-speed stop-start commute motoring most people have to put up with. Electric cars don't waste energy or pollute whilst queuing. Most people aren't whistling down an autobahn taking a caravan around the Grand Tour. Very large numbers of people are obliged to make lots of short range journeys and keeping them productive is important.

It's a mistake to try and overlay how we do things today on the future. It will be different, better in some ways, worse in others. Quite likely future motorists will run a relatively short range car that they recharge slowly overnight or at work. They won't expect it to do everything, and perhaps hire something else for occasional long range journeys or heavy lifting. The 'something else' could be a hybrid, or a car that can recharge from overhead wires, or one fitted with exchangeable batteries, or fast-recharge, or a fuel-cell.

It occurred to me whilst queuing to refuel that an electric car would eliminate my need to do that ever again. Rather than physically moving my car to a pump with a debit card, my travel pattern would let me recharge comfortably at home. Think how much extra time I would have to blather and pontificate on the forum…

Dave

[ZebethyalParticipant @zebethyal]

Having ones own home with off street parking and only a single, maybe 2 cars to charge is great, however that does not work for a significant portion of the population.

According to the government 2010 housing survey, 20% of the population live in flats, no real option of charging an EV from the 3rd or 20th floor.

32% rely on street parking and 2% have no provision whatsoever for parking.

With the national average being 1.3 cars per household (according to statista), with many having 4 adults and 3 or 4 cars and no off street parking, charging points at work (assuming you can park there) are going to be a necessity.

If I look at one of my local roads, most of the houses have provision for off street parking for 2 cars, yet the street is also full of cars with no spare spaces. This is a residential street in greater London that is 20+ minutes walk to the nearest shop and 10 minutes from the nearest bus stop, so the spaces are being used by people who actually live in these houses, not by people wishing to pop to the shops.

Go past during the day and there are hardly any cars parked on the street, proving that most of these people work elsewhere.

With the current charging speeds/capabilities if any of these households suddenly swapped to EVs they would struggle to charge them in a sensible time frame.

Yet supposedly London only has 0.8 cars per household (according to statista), this is a skewed statistic because a high percentage of those who live in central London tend not to own cars and just use public transport or taxis, leaving those outside the centre to boost the numbers with 3-4 cars per household.

 

Edited By Zebethyal on 13/05/2019 14:05:04

[DennisParticipant @dennis66942]

How about this guy's a universal drill type battery that jacks up into your boot space you have to swap it for a fully charged pack just paid for the electric and off you go again.

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

Posted by Dennis on 13/05/2019 14:51:35:

How about this guy's a universal drill type battery that jacks up into your boot space you have to swap it for a fully charged pack just paid for the electric and off you go again.

That was the original Tesla premis.. I believe they even built one or two swap out stations before abandoning that model. It was supposed to be automatic, drive on the mechansim, it dropped out the old pack and plugged the new one in a time aim of three minutes. I don't know what stopped them using that design… perhaps as simple as the logistics of enough packs and moving them about as stations became depleted?
One of the EV startups in China plans to provide a combination of roadside charge points and their own mobile service – claims of they'll get to you within an hour of your rendezvous…
I think it was porsche or perhaps audi that claimed they would manage a 400KVpeak charge rate – doable if the points exist but unless packs get larger or better then at current sizes it'll knacker them fast. I don't think anyone has long-term C ratings that high.
The golden charging period is between 20-80%. I do know that they aim to manage that in 15mins on the model3 75KWH pack in the near future using the new 250KW chargers with 80% aimed to give you 300miles range. Or for lottery winners the new roadster with 620 mile range and a 200KWH pack, 0-60 in 1.9secs and the option of booster rockets if you want to accelerate faster (Really!. Even Elon Musk-speak of it being able to hover short-term; drag strip stuff.)

Whatever wild ideas actually happen one can be sure that things will adapt. there are currently 23000 charge points UK.. albeit some are very slow. 4300 that can charge 50KW or faster as of the end of 2018.

**LINK**

pgk

[Mark RandParticipant @markrand96270]

Since I got a car with a speed limiter/cruise control it's made me a far better driver. I can set the speed limiter to the current speed limit and then concentrate on driving safely. Bugger all the BMWs and AUDIs that are queueing up behind me.

 

If I stick with the articulated lorries on the motorway I can get a genuine 80mpg, if I don't, it drops to 65mpg That beats the previous two Renault Espaces with their 35-40mpg averages.

 

The car is a 2015 Dacia Sandero 1.5 DCI (a Renault Clio 1.5DCI with £6000 hidden in the glovebox). The current versions have marginally poorer economy, but with Urea injection and NOX catalyst, they're as clean as any petrol or electric vehicle.

Edited By Mark Rand on 13/05/2019 20:32:27

[Colin HeseltineParticipant @colinheseltine48622]

I think i'd shoot myself rather than drive 460 miles to Scotland with the cruise control set to 60.

Trouble is when working away you would ideally need charging points at hotels. Most guests would expect o be able to charge their vehicle on arrival. If there was such a thing as an electric version of the LWB Transit or Renault Trafic how far would you really expect to get fully loaded inside and with ladders and steel work on roof rack before you had to stop and recharge. If I travel long distance (250-300 miles) I expect to be on-site around 10:30 in order to work a 8hr – 10hr day. Having to stop and recharge would be a real pain.

Colin

[martin perman 1Participant @martinperman1]

Posted by Colin Heseltine on 13/05/2019 20:34:07:

I think i'd shoot myself rather than drive 460 miles to Scotland with the cruise control set to 60.

And your point is , I'm retired and not in a hurry, I spent nearly 30 years rushing around the country and abroad for work purposes and see nothing, its a real pleasure to not have to do that anymore and I can see the world go by in focus and not a blur.

Martin P

[FMESParticipant @fmes]

Posted by pgk pgk on 13/05/2019 16:12:20:

Posted by Dennis on 13/05/2019 14:51:35:

How about this guy's a universal drill type battery that jacks up into your boot space you have to swap it for a fully charged pack just paid for the electric and off you go again.

That was the original Tesla premis.. I believe they even built one or two swap out stations before abandoning that model. It was supposed to be automatic, drive on the mechansim, it dropped out the old pack and plugged the new one in a time aim of three minutes. I don't know what stopped them using that design… perhaps as simple as the logistics of enough packs and moving them about as stations became depleted?
One of the EV startups in China plans to provide a combination of roadside charge points and their own mobile service – claims of they'll get to you within an hour of your rendezvous…
I think it was porsche or perhaps audi that claimed they would manage a 400KVpeak charge rate – doable if the points exist but unless packs get larger or better then at current sizes it'll knacker them fast. I don't think anyone has long-term C ratings that high.
The golden charging period is between 20-80%. I do know that they aim to manage that in 15mins on the model3 75KWH pack in the near future using the new 250KW chargers with 80% aimed to give you 300miles range. Or for lottery winners the new roadster with 620 mile range and a 200KWH pack, 0-60 in 1.9secs and the option of booster rockets if you want to accelerate faster (Really!. Even Elon Musk-speak of it being able to hover short-term; drag strip stuff.)

Whatever wild ideas actually happen one can be sure that things will adapt. there are currently 23000 charge points UK.. albeit some are very slow. 4300 that can charge 50KW or faster as of the end of 2018.

**LINK**

pgk

Being brutally realistic, if you can't afford to buy one, its a no go situation right from the start, and why would I need a car thats so large?

If the only way to get a decent range is to have a battery that will only fit into a car the size of a barn then its just not viable to those that haven't got large families etc.

At present I am more than happy with a two seater sports, which gets over 600 miles to the tank, and not at limited speeds either or stuck behind HGVs, takes about 5 minutes to fill up once a month using BPme, I don't even have to use a card or go into the shop to pay.

I like the idea of electric but until prices drop radically its just not an option.

[Colin HeseltineParticipant @colinheseltine48622]

Sorry Martin, I was not getting at you. I'm 69 and hoping to retire partially (possibly completely) in a few months. I worked all round the country for the last 30 years as well. One of my hobbies is touring in Caterham 7 and using nice fast bendy roads. I'll be honest I find its much easier to concentrate driving fast than stuck in traffic or stupid average speed camera areas.

Colin

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

Posted by Colin Heseltine on 13/05/2019 20:34:07:

…..If there was such a thing as an electric version of the LWB Transit or Renault Trafic how far would you really expect to get fully loaded inside and with ladders and steel work on roof rack before you had to stop and recharge. If I travel long distance (250-300 miles) …

Colin

Colin,
!0yrs ago the idea of a practical electric car would probably have been looked at as as cuckoo as the sinclair c5.
At the moment I agree that the things aren't cheap or if one sticks with small batteries then it's just a daily short commute. Things are happening .. there's more than one 'Semi' (mercan for artic) in the pipeline with 500+ mile ranges and things like multiple input chargers. There are also pickup trucks in design with plans for those to have comparative 300 mile ranges and some interesting features such as a 120v outlet for remote site work (aimed at the US rural market).
The early battery packs cost somewhere around $300/KWH and are down towards $100 now. Motor efficiency is up also and hopefully longevity of the overall vehicle.
If nothing else it stirs the rivals' options to be cleaner. I still keep an ICE vehicle about to hedge my bets: bad weather, power cuts etc and because it's fun too

pgk.

[SamsarandaParticipant @samsaranda]

Colin, I await the debut of an electric Caterham 7.

Dave W

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

Posted by Samsaranda on 14/05/2019 09:36:27:

Colin, I await the debut of an electric Caterham 7.

Dave W

Well there is already a Isle of Man TT race for electric bikes, a bit spooky seeing seriously quick bikes which make no noise electric TT

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by FMES on 13/05/2019 21:46:54:

Posted by pgk pgk on 13/05/2019 16:12:20:

Posted by Dennis on 13/05/2019 14:51:35:

…

…

…

I like the idea of electric but until prices drop radically its just not an option.

At the moment there's a good case for that. But I hope no-one imagines there's any possibility of carrying on as we are forever. God isn't making any new oil.

Mankind is at 'peak oil'. That's the point in time when oil can't be pumped out of the ground fast enough to meet global demand. It is also the point after which reserves start running out. As a result we can expect the price of oil to rise, slowly at first, say over the next 10 years, and then more rapidly. The cost of oil will rise until enough people are priced out of the market to stabilise it. Never mind motoring, unless alternatives are found, this will rock the foundations of aviation, industry, agriculture, electric generation, shipping, and the balance of power worldwide.

This economic trajectory is well understood, there are many examples from the past. Once upon a time top quality timber like Mahogany was cheap : plenty of mature trees just waiting to be cut down. Today Mahogany is expensive and the quality indifferent. You can't get the trees, guv.

Continuing to burn petrol at today's rates is impossible. For that reason alone rejecting electric cars isn't an option for mankind as a whole. At the moment, electricity offers the best chance of meeting future transport requirements. Only two major technical problems to be solved; batteries and cost-effective conversion of solar energy into electricity. Distribution is established technology, it's only time and money holding it back.

Solar has massive potential. Sunshine is free and there is lots of it – about 1.3kW per square metre across the entire planet. Convert and store it cheaply and the rest is easy.

Interesting times ahead – it will be different.

Dave

[Colin HeseltineParticipant @colinheseltine48622]

There as a thought, an electric Caterham. Thing is, if we go touring round Los Picos in Spain or even the north of Scotland I can carry a spare 5ltrs of fuel in a can without too much of a weight penalty. Might be a bit difficult to find space to carry a spare battery. When we go out, say 10 cars on a trip, just as in Los Picos last year we all topped off our tanks every time someone needed a fill-up. At some of the smaller garages (one diesel and one petrol pump) this could take some time. Finding electric charge stations out in the wilds might be a bit difficult.

I guess we would have to find some nice flexible solar panels to cover the cars so we could charge up as we went along.

Colin

[roy entwistleParticipant @royentwistle24699]

What happened to all the solar panels producing hot water I seem to remember a few years back ?

Roy

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Posted by pgk pgk on 13/05/2019 22:58:52

…

!0yrs ago the idea of a practical electric car would probably have been looked at as as cuckoo as the sinclair c5.
At the moment I agree that the things aren't cheap or if one sticks with small batteries then it's just a daily short commute. Things are happening .. there's more than one 'Semi' (mercan for artic) in the pipeline with 500+ mile ranges and things like multiple input chargers. There are also pickup trucks in design with plans for those to have comparative 300 mile ranges and some interesting features such as a 120v outlet for remote site work (aimed at the US rural market).
The early battery packs cost somewhere around $300/KWH and are down towards $100 now. Motor efficiency is up also and hopefully longevity of the overall vehicle.
If nothing else it stirs the rivals' options to be cleaner. I still keep an ICE vehicle about to hedge my bets: bad weather, power cuts etc and because it's fun too

pgk.

Electric cars were debuted around the same time as fossil fuelled ones. Royal Enfield made the E8000 back in the 1970s – look up Jonny Smith and his ‘flux capacitor’ electric car on u-toob if you want to see just how quick a 1970s electric car can go nowadays, with just a ‘few tweaks’.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Posted by roy entwistle on 14/05/2019 11:35:00:

What happened to all the solar panels producing hot water I seem to remember a few years back ?

Roy

A lot of them are still supplying hot water for their owners. The technology has mostly been replaced by PV which, while surplus can be used to heat the domestic hot water cylinder and the non-surplus can run the home, has become so cheap that the evacuated tube technology has become more expensive than PV. Thermal collectors are not multi-purpose items. They can be more efficient at energy collection than PV panels, mind.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Posted by duncan webster on 14/05/2019 10:10:24:

Posted by Samsaranda on 14/05/2019 09:36:27:

Colin, I await the debut of an electric Caterham 7.

Dave W

Well there is already a Isle of Man TT race for electric bikes, a bit spooky seeing seriously quick bikes which make no noise electric TT

Not only motorcycles. Formula – E is also becoming a popular motor racing format. They used to swap cars half way through the race, but now race with just the one fully charged car for something like 45 minutes plus a further lap.

[FMESParticipant @fmes]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 14/05/2019 10:37:17:

Posted by FMES on 13/05/2019 21:46:54:

Posted by pgk pgk on 13/05/2019 16:12:20:

Posted by Dennis on 13/05/2019 14:51:35:

…

…

…

I like the idea of electric but until prices drop radically its just not an option.

At the moment there's a good case for that. But I hope no-one imagines there's any possibility of carrying on as we are forever. God isn't making any new oil.

Thats not quite true, the process is still going on today as it was millions of years ago, not that its any good to us in our lifetimes.

But as I said before Diesel engines will be around long after the manufacture of petrol has probably ceased, and not burning fossil fuels.

Gas turbines are akin to diesel engines as they are multi-fuel tolerant and again can be run off non-fossil fuels.

Only trouble then is – where are we going to grow all the vegetation required to make the fuels?

Like all things there will be a phased change as different fuels come onto the market, or battery technology alters drastically

Bring on the Flux Capacitor

Regards

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember32069]

[This posting has been removed]

[doubletopParticipant @doubletop]

Those of you in the IET may be interested in joining in on the discussion here. (not sure if others can access it)

**LINK**

One of the contributors provided this link

gridwatch

You may find it interesting

[V8EngParticipant @v8eng]

I read recently that EV charge points installed using a Government grant will have to be “smart” in the very near future.

I have just found the article again so add a link.

Charging points

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

If the effort and capital expended on wind generated power were applied to tidal (OK needs a storage system similar to the Dinorwic pumped storage system), but totally predictable.

And to wave power, since the seas are rarely free of waves.

A few years ago, a company developed a turbine, (Driven by air, propelled by the incoming/receding waves ) that rotated in the same direction, irrespective of the direction of the air stream. The turbine powered a DC generator, so that the electricity could be either stored in batteries, or fed directly to an inverter to produce 50Hz to feed into the UK grid. Elsewhere in the world it would probably be 60Hz.

Ostensibly, free power (to offset the initial capital and running costs ), limited only by the extent and number of installations.

Such systems could provide much, if not all of the electrical power requirements (although, being human we will then expand to overtake that available )

But would tidal power slow the earth's rotation, eventually? If so mankind would have solved one problem and created a possibly worse one for the whole planet!

End of philosophical chat

Howard

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

Posted by V8Eng on 18/05/2019 00:22:19:

I read recently that EV charge points installed using a Government grant will have to be “smart” in the very near future.

I have just found the article again so add a link.

Charging points

Does that imply that when the wind isn't blowing (no wind generation), or it's dark (no PV) you won't be able to charge your car?

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

The switch to electric might have advantages. At the moment we all have to report to a garage forecourt to buy carefully metered fuel stored expensively underground in tanks that have to be regularly replaced, and refilled by fleets of tankers that expensively trundle around the roads getting in my way, going on strike, or getting stuck in snow. Not to mention crude being bought from some distinctly dodgy countries and then shipped half-way round the world. The garage, taking up rather a lot of expensive land, has to be manned for safety reasons and make a profit.

To buy diesel and petrol the customer has to make special trips to the pumps and pay a lot of overheads. Electric recharging does away with several inconveniences. Recharge points can be scattered more or less anywhere convenient, they don't have to be clustered together. They don't need to be supervised, and they don't need to be refilled. You can even refuel at home. And because it doesn't burn fuel, your car won't need to be docked regulartly to have its oil, plugs and filters changed.

Apart from the batteries…

Dave

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