The Ass is out of the stables

[Malcolm Parker-LisbergParticipant @malcolmparker-lisberg38138]

Reading the Southern Federation of Model Engineers newsletter I came across a paragraph detailing proposed legislation with worrying implications for model engineers. The government, have issued a consultative document, “Consultation Paper No 224, FIREARMS LAW, A Scoping Consultation Paper”

To quote from the newsletter:

"The two specific proposals are …

PP13 “We provisionally propose the law be amended to focus on the ready availability of the tools necessary to convert an imitation firearm into a live fire-arm.”

PP14 “We provisionally propose the creation of an offence of being in possession of articles with the intention of using them unlawfully to convert imitation firearms into live firearms.”

The first seeks to control the supply side and would potentially affect commercial traders, but it would, most likely, also affect the sale of second-hand tools.

The second seeks to control the actual possession, though it does appear to require that “intent” be proven before an offence had been committed!

So it would seem that if you have A book about WW2 SOE devices on the bookshelf with a mill, lathe and carbide tooling in the workshop, would according to my interpretation be enough to result in conviction and most model engineers could require cakes with diamond cord saws delivered to their cell.

Put the halter on the Asses and write to your MP to stop these loonies

Malcolm

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[Malcolm Parker-LisbergParticipant @malcolmparker-lisberg38138]

Keep them in their stables

[Nick_GParticipant @nick_g]

Posted by Malcolm Parker-Lisberg on 26/10/2015 12:28:32:

according to my interpretation

Malcolm

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.

Ahhhhhh, that's it then. …………………… We are all doomed.!

Nick

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

PP13 Taken to the extreme would make it illegal to manufacture, sell, or use hand or machine tools.

MANY years ago, when at school, one of my schoolmasters used to make cross bows and pistols for hobby of hunting rabbits. In today's world he would be a dangerous would be terrorist.

PP14 Gives the "state" the ability to read minds. (Another addition to cast of charlatans who claim such ability)

Both are typical of the stupid, unrealistic mindset of civil servants who lack any real knowledge or experience of life, who are blinded to practicality by either good intentions or ideology.

My protest is winging its way to my MP, pleading for some common sense to be used.

Howard

Edited By Howard Lewis on 26/10/2015 14:05:32

[Diane CarneyModerator @dianecarney30678]

Following some research today there will be a comment about this in Smoke Rings, issue 4521 (30th October) but in light of this discussion I may post something earlier than that on this thread.

Diane

[Nick_GParticipant @nick_g]

Posted by Diane Carney on 26/10/2015 13:58:47:

Following some research today there will be a comment about this in Smoke Rings, issue 4521 (30th October) but in light of this discussion I may post something earlier than that on this thread.

Diane

 

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"Research". – Would that be by asking the advice of someone actually fully qualified to give opinion in this area of the law.?

It's important that this information is taken with that in mind and not from some well meaning self appointed legal-beagle who has everyone running round like scalded cats.

My 2 pence worth is that the vital and key word is 'intent'. But then I only work serving Barristers and QC's, I ain't one.! So my 2p is probably broken biscuits in value.

 

Nick

Edited By Nick_G on 26/10/2015 14:16:21

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

My reading of the consultation is that the sale or possession of engineering equipment is NOT going to be controlled, but their ready availability makes the existing law an ass. In short, you don't need specialist equipment to modify firearms (as any roadside AK47 maker in the Khyber Pass region would tell you).

The consultation states:

6.40 It might be thought that such an offence would criminalise everyone who is in possession of any drill, vice or other common tools. This is not the case, however. An individual would only commit our proposed offence if the prosecution proves he or she was in possession of an article capable of being used in the unlawful conversion of an imitation firearm and he or she had the intention to use it for that purpose.

6.41 For example, section 6 of the Fraud Act 2006 potentially criminalises anyone in possession of a pen and paper. The reason it does not do so is that it requires an intention to use those articles for an unlawful purpose. The Court of Appeal has confirmed that requiring the prosecution to prove intention ensures that those who are in innocent possession are not criminalised.17 This same interpretation would apply to our proposed offence.

6.42 The requisite intention would be capable of being proved if, for example, an individual was in possession of articles and instructions on how to convert imitation firearms into live firearms.

6.43 Such an offence, therefore, would ensure that only those who possess tools and equipment with the intention of using them unlawfully to convert imitation firearms into live firearms commit an offence. This proposal would also ensure that an individual who only possesses such tools for carrying out maintenance on his or her home would not commit an offence.

I think the real issue is making sure it is recognised that the combination of being a model engineer and having an interest in firearms is not seen as prima facie evidence of an intent to carry out modifications. For example, I have some American magazines that contain some articles on gunsmithing; I have no idea if they would help me convert a replica pistol and I would be aghast if the combination of these and my lathe got me into trouble.

What would be very useful would be for someone who has the ear of a sympathetic MP asking them to gain suitable and public reassurances that this legislation will not be used to limit the legitimate practice of model engineering or the collecting of replica firearms in isolation or together.

It would also be sensible to seek clarification that that making non-functional replica weapons must not been treated as an offence and that official guidance on how to ensure such replicas cannot be readily converted would be welcomed.

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Had to happen eventually

Anyone who can make stuff and doesn't do it in a controlled supervised environment is a threat to society

Stand by for the beeb to run a report on how you can make mini-nukes and 120mm mortars on a Cowells lathe

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Remember comrades:

The government knows everything and will protect us and always tells the truth

Regulations set you free

Long live the peoples democratic eutopia !

Now get back to work citizen, we've got another 3 million tractors to produce

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

So it will need a total change to the law then as at the moment other than barrels and receivers ANYONE can make the rest of the parts with no paperwork at all.

This is not hearsay as some while ago I was approached to make triggers for Heckler and Koch machine pistols by Nottingham Royal Ordinance of all people. When I queried what was needed paper wise to do this job I was told nothing, only the order to do the work.

Did these for about 4-5 years, in total well over 10,000 until ROF closed and the job went back to Germany I presume.

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Breaking news:

Police raids today resulted in the confiscation of 50 super-adept lathes and the arrests of their owners who were all on a secret register of subversive lathe users which fell into the hands of the authorities…

[Steven VineParticipant @stevenvine79904]

Posted by Ady1 on 26/10/2015 15:02:03:

Breaking news:

Police raids today resulted in the confiscation of 50 super-adept lathes and the arrests of their owners who were all on a secret register of subversive lathe users which fell into the hands of the authorities…

Ady – 25 of them got off and had the lathes returned, as the owners could prove they were only being used as door stops. The other 25 got off because the police believed it was impossible to make anything on them.

Steve

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Are we not missing the mitigating evidence of all the clocks, steam engines, boats etc in complete or partially built state to indicate the legitimate use of the workshop? You don't really get accused of shoplifting when you have just bought £100 worth of groceries particularly if you have been using the same shop for the last 50 years or so.

I would have thought it far easier to prove legitimate use than imagined illegality. Most of these laws seem to be sabre rattling and judging by reports often don't get used anyhow as existing legislation is more than adequate.

Martin

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

<edit> Original post removed

Much as I appreciate the point Kwil is making, posting links to 'how to make your own sub-machine gun' books is just the sort of thing that (even in jest) can cause problems down the line when wilfully misrepresented by those with an axe to grind.

I am minded to recall Liam Byrne who has been dogged by his 'no money left' jest for five years…

Neil

 

Edited By Neil Wyatt on 26/10/2015 18:06:22

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

There was case a few years back of a Garden Shed workshop south of Reading where replica conversions were taking place. Press pics at the time showed a pillar drill and a well known brand of lathe etc, it was found by accident I think.

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

It's OK, clearly states "For academic study only."

[Enough!Participant @enough]

Posted by Martin Kyte on 26/10/2015 15:39:55:

I would have thought it far easier to prove legitimate use than imagined illegality.

Now that's thinking outside the box. Proving your innocence rather than expecting someone else to prove your guilt.

I like it! This could lead to a whole new concept of justice.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

6.42 above is why they want to snoop on your internet use.

It doesn't need actual intent, just the government claiming intent. Remember what happened to Matrix Churchill.

[David Clark 13Participant @davidclark13]

I see there is a book about making a sub machine gun as well. Surely this legislation will tell everyone that it is possible to make or modify a gun? Also the act seems to say modify the replica. Does it say you can't make one by scratch building it?

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

As has been discussed before, the Sten gun lends itself to being made with a fairly minimal workshop, as usual the good guys get all the pain and inconvenience and the illegal gun maker will carry on without bothering to obey the law. Obtaining illegal weapons does not seem very difficult to criminals.

Mike

[Speedy Builder5Participant @speedybuilder5]

I suppose we add 3-D printers to that list then ? Surely intent to manufacture would have to be proven by bits of guns being present. Would those with firearms certificates be exempt and what would the Air Rfifle brigade who modify their rifles be in trouble?

[jason udallParticipant @jasonudall57142]

Mmm…the “knife” sales laws appears to indicate prohibition of ..selling to minors a weapon or something that can be made into a weapon…”
…anyone seen chronicles of riddick? …

Was one stopped on way fishing…plod searching for missing girl. ..
Asked to open boot immediately followed by open tackle box ( big tackle box/seat)..so in the top are three bait knives .4″..x1/2″..blades…”what are they for? “..bait…
Why so many?
Ever tried stroping a knife on a rolling deck?…..when one goes dull ( stainless ..so you can expect) use next.. “Oh ” says plod…

[Chris JordanParticipant @chrisjordan32922]

Sten gun!

Something from the Lion comic I had in the 1960's (Trellawney of the Guards stormed his way across Western Europe defeating the German army single-handed with one), I don't think they really existed (made from broom handles, left over 303 barrels, pipe cleaners etc). Anyway I'm going to make one on my Warco and when I've finished that I'll finish the robot Archie I started a few years back…or maybe that light pull

Chris J

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Be careful Chris!

You are not dealing with sensible, logical people, with a sense of humour. One wrong word and you will be banged up for a longer time than any proven murderer.

At the induction to work in Security, the initiation, often seems to be to amputate the part of the brain dealing with common sense!

Once, a colleague and I, each had to get a signed pass out, to leave the premises and go across the road on company business!

(And this was not an establishment involved in defence or national security, purely manufacturing and product development)

Perhaps I'm the one who is paranoid?

Howard

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

I'm sure 'they' would look at someone's internet browsing history.

More likely, they will monitor people's internet browsing histories and those looking at websites about gun conversion will be those most likely to get a workshop visit.

Neil

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