Suggestions for a locomotive

[Jon CameronParticipant @joncameron26580]

Hello all,

I've been pondering on starting a loco project, I haven't got a gauge or model in mind, I'm looking for suggestions. My workshop is not fully equipped, but I do have a small Lathe, with A 3.5" center hieght, and taps and dies can be bought along the way.

Id like to be able to lift it in and out of a large cars boot, pull around three adults minimum, and be a proven design, hopefully relatively easy to build. Other than that I don't have any other specs in mind. The local club to me has a track which can accommodate 3.5" 5" and 7.1/4" gauges so I'm not restricted on that either.

Any ideas please on a good first time build loco?

Thanks in advance Jon

[Jon CameronParticipant @joncameron26580]

[Brian HParticipant @brianh50089]

My first loco was Boxhill by Martin Evans. This is an 0-6-0 in 5" gauge with inside cylinders It's a small engine so fits in a car boot and is not too heavy.

I thinks it's important to model a subject that you like otherwise you may lose heart and possibly never finish it.

What locos are popular at your local club, that may be a factor if you need any help and advice?

Brian

[paul rushmerParticipant @paulrushmer83015]

Hi

My thought would be LBSC Netta in 3 1/2 most components are straight ! parallel round top boiler large cab and low tender makes it easy to drive. Not many 5inch locos are a one man lift. Best thing to do is go to local club and talk to loco owners. Do not build from some ones recommendation unless you agree and like the results , you will loss heart and never finish it!!

Happy hunting Paul

[Jon CameronParticipant @joncameron26580]

My interests are generally for narrow gauge locos, but these tend to become massive, at these gauges, so a reasonable standard gauge loco may be a way forward.

[Nigel BennettParticipant @nigelbennett69913]

Brian's comment is spot on. Building a loco is like a love affair; you really have to love the loco you intend to make, otherwise you lose interest and you start making excuses not to continue with it. Another "Part-finished loco for sale…"

What about "Sweet Violet" – a 3.1/2"G version of Sweet Pea? Not too complex, and it should fit the bill. And the boot.

Good luck with whatever you choose!

[Clive Brown 1Participant @clivebrown1]

If you want 5" gauge, Simplex is worth considering. Straightforward to build, including the boiler and a good performer. The final choice is a personal decision, but I would think twice about taking on a very detailed prototype for an initial attempt. The fine detail can be quite trying and time-consuming to complete, leading to discouragement. OTOH, getting a loco "under your belt" gives confidence for later projects.

But it all depends!

[Jon CameronParticipant @joncameron26580]

I think the club has a simplex rolling chassis that was acquired and has sat in the store for a while. Though it's covered in rust. I've seen a thread on another forum where they are building a simplex too. So it's obviously a popular choice.

I do quite like the sweet violet, fairly cheap to acquire all the castings ect simple bodywork too with as much detail as you want to add. And ticks the box for a narrow gauge loco. Though there's the valve gear. I've heard from 16mm scale locos that it can be pretty tricky to set up properly. I don't know how this compares to larger scales? (Sorry i cant spell the name of the valve gear)

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

Simplex weighs over a hundredweight, not that easy to lift in and out of a car boot. The other ones would be Ajax (no idea what it weighs, bit it's smaller!), but the boiler design is probably a bit dated, or Emma Victoria. However if you geta rolling chassis at the right price the decision is easier.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Posted by Jon Cameron on 29/10/2017 13:16:29:

My interests are generally for narrow gauge locos, but these tend to become massive,

Have you looked at Conway, NG in 3 1/2". Freelance so designed to be easier to build. Not driven one so not sure how they perform. I think it is lighter than a Simplex.

[alan-lloydParticipant @alan-lloyd]

You could look at Nick Feasts southern Q1 in 3/12 gauge, fairly straight forward build, the problem with building loco's is the price of the boiler, weather you buy one or build your own, you will be looking at £1000 plus, good luck

[Jon CameronParticipant @joncameron26580]

£1000 plus just for boiler, sort of makes buying a finished loco at around £3500 Look appealing but where's the fun in that

I've seen sweet pea/violet built as Kerr Stuart locos with an all open cab, could save some weight there, plus I've always liked the Kerr Stuart's look. I have seen the Conway, looks a lot like a 16mm loco called Crackler that was built by a one man band a few years ago. Nice shape to it.

My problem is it seems there is a lot of choice for someone wanting to build, also a lot of laser cut parts available where there needed, saves some fine file work in any case, so I guess two main factors come down to cost of castings, and also wether it can carry enough water to not be stopping half way around the club's track.

So far the sweet pea/violet and the simplex seem to be strong contenders for their ease of build. With sweet violet been most likely the lightest.

Keep suggestions coming, The Southern Q1 is a loco I'd not even looked at.

[J HancockParticipant @jhancock95746]

And, just in case you have any concerns about boiler building, make sure one for your engine is 'affordable'

before you start.

[Another JohnSParticipant @anotherjohns]

Jon:

Random thoughts as I start my day:

If you never have to lift a locomotive, you can make it as large as your workshop allows. I can't do this (house issues) so I do have to manually lift when I want to steam.

Weight of locomotive is one thing that people dismiss. They are awkward things to move; even my 3-1/2" gauge 2-8-2 is a two person lift (engine) and the tender is a one person lift.

It's hard to get an easily moved 5" locomotive; saw a 5" Boxhill last Saturday night, and the owner said that he needed 2 to lift it now. I was surprised at how small it was; I could lift it, but am 8 years younger; if I was his age???

3-1/2" gauge is not as popular as it once was, as "bigger is better" (or so people think). However, my 160 pound 3-1/2" gauge 2-8-2 would be 1,280 lbs (or so!) in 7-1/4" gauge – twice as long, twice as high, twice as wide… even in 5" gauge, it would be about 350 pounds. Something to think about?

My little Tich can (and has) pulled 2 people, and is very easy to move. There was an oil firing article in ME at least 10 years ago now that I keep on thinking I'll try, as that gets rid of the needing a perfect coal fire problem. Tich weighs in less than the tender of my 2-8-2.

Simplex is a heavy locomotive to lift. They run very well (have 1 "original" and 1 of the updated Simplex designs in our club, both run extremely well) They are not an out-of -the-boot lift.

Conway – another member has a 3-1/2" gauge Conway, large locomotive in a small package, and it pulls well. and is an easier lift.

Nick Feast's Q1. Simple prototype, simple model. Large firebox, should be easy to keep a fire going. Nick did a really good job with the design and writeup. Castings from Bruce/Polly Model Engineering. I have the drawings from them, and have CAD'ed parts up for manufacture, but have not actually started yet. (life gets in the way) I really like this design.

Rob Roy – if my Tich will pull 2, Rob Roy will pull 3 easily. Inside valve gear (hard to work on), but are beautiful locomotives.

Currently, on my workbench I have a Kozo Hiraoka Shay (currently in painting mode) and a Martin Evans 2MT "Ivatt" – needing cylinders and motion work, but it looks like it would also be a good little engine when complete.

Whatever you do, as others have said, start on one you want to work on – it's your decision, and you'll make the correct one.

John.

[WearyParticipant @weary]

Hi,

You might also want to look at this very similar thread. Julian Atkins makes some very good points and suggestions founded on significant experience.

So, you may also wish to also consider one of the 'Railmotor' variants, or Doug Hewson's 'Y4' tank. Both are 5" gauge and supported by magazine construction series. A 'google images' search will turn up pics of both if you are unfamiliar with them. But, I echo the oft repeated refrain above; "It must be something you like"

Regards,

Phil.

[Jon CameronParticipant @joncameron26580]

Posted by J Hancock on 30/10/2017 09:11:51:

And, just in case you have any concerns about boiler building, make sure one for your engine is 'affordable'

before you start.

I have considered this, cost will be a factor, though I feel it will be a long term project. Cost of the boiler is probably why there is so many rolling chassis that turn up on selling sites.

[David Standing 1Participant @davidstanding1]

Posted by J Hancock on 30/10/2017 09:11:51:

And, just in case you have any concerns about boiler building, make sure one for your engine is 'affordable'

before you start.

Never mind affordable, check that the boiler builder is likely to deliver this decade, if at all!

[Jon CameronParticipant @joncameron26580]

Posted by John Alexander Stewart on 30/10/2017 13:08:42:

Jon:

Random thoughts as I start my day:

If you never have to lift a locomotive, you can make it as large as your workshop allows. I can't do this (house issues) so I do have to manually lift when I want to steam.

Weight of locomotive is one thing that people dismiss. They are awkward things to move; even my 3-1/2" gauge 2-8-2 is a two person lift (engine) and the tender is a one person lift.

It's hard to get an easily moved 5" locomotive; saw a 5" Boxhill last Saturday night, and the owner said that he needed 2 to lift it now. I was surprised at how small it was; I could lift it, but am 8 years younger; if I was his age???

3-1/2" gauge is not as popular as it once was, as "bigger is better" (or so people think). However, my 160 pound 3-1/2" gauge 2-8-2 would be 1,280 lbs (or so!) in 7-1/4" gauge – twice as long, twice as high, twice as wide… even in 5" gauge, it would be about 350 pounds. Something to think about?

My little Tich can (and has) pulled 2 people, and is very easy to move. There was an oil firing article in ME at least 10 years ago now that I keep on thinking I'll try, as that gets rid of the needing a perfect coal fire problem. Tich weighs in less than the tender of my 2-8-2.

Simplex is a heavy locomotive to lift. They run very well (have 1 "original" and 1 of the updated Simplex designs in our club, both run extremely well) They are not an out-of -the-boot lift.

Conway – another member has a 3-1/2" gauge Conway, large locomotive in a small package, and it pulls well. and is an easier lift.

Nick Feast's Q1. Simple prototype, simple model. Large firebox, should be easy to keep a fire going. Nick did a really good job with the design and writeup. Castings from Bruce/Polly Model Engineering. I have the drawings from them, and have CAD'ed parts up for manufacture, but have not actually started yet. (life gets in the way) I really like this design.

Rob Roy – if my Tich will pull 2, Rob Roy will pull 3 easily. Inside valve gear (hard to work on), but are beautiful locomotives.

Currently, on my workbench I have a Kozo Hiraoka Shay (currently in painting mode) and a Martin Evans 2MT "Ivatt" – needing cylinders and motion work, but it looks like it would also be a good little engine when complete.

Whatever you do, as others have said, start on one you want to work on – it's your decision, and you'll make the correct one.

John.

John I like your random thoughts, there a lot less random than mine

As for weight I'm still in my early 30's and of a largish build, so lifting upto around 50kg I can manage, above that as you say gets a bit uncomfortable. This was why I was considering the 3.1/2" sweet violet, as it's still going to carry some bulk to it, but not be substantially heavy, as the boiler design should be slightly lighter also.

Does anyone know what weights any of the locos mentioned are? If you could ask the member you know with Conway how much it weighs I'd appreciate it.

I have helped move a simplex and with two it's quite heavy, so on my own I doubt I'd manage.

What does the 5" sweet pea weigh in at? I'm quite happy to look at small prototypes like an 0-4-0, or 0-4-2 narrow gauge locos.

[Jon CameronParticipant @joncameron26580]

Posted by Weary on 30/10/2017 20:42:59:

Hi,

You might also want to look at this very similar thread. Julian Atkins makes some very good points and suggestions founded on significant experience.

So, you may also wish to also consider one of the 'Railmotor' variants, or Doug Hewson's 'Y4' tank. Both are 5" gauge and supported by magazine construction series. A 'google images' search will turn up pics of both if you are unfamiliar with them. But, I echo the oft repeated refrain above; "It must be something you like"

Regards,

Phil.

Thanks for that I had a read through that thread though would also like to know what the answer to the last question is regarding gunmetal verses cast iron.

[julian atkinsParticipant @julianatkins58923]

Hi Phil,

Thanks for that link! I had quite forgotten about it!

I would add as an aside that after constructing my own Railmotor I later re-built Don Young's original Railmotor for it's new owner after Don's death. I lifted it out (on my own) from the boot of my old Vauxhall Chevette Saloon circa 1996 to display at an IMWES monthly meeting.

The following day my back completely seized up and required treatment. I have suffered from back problems ever since.

So I would not suggest a 5"g Railmotor is a one person lift.

I think the HSE guidance is 25kg for lifting and 15kg for carrying or perhaps it is the otherway round.

In any event all 5"g locos are over 25kg, and most 3.5"g locos too.

I cannot lift my own unfinished 5"g Stepney (my own version of a 5"g Terrier ala Martin Evans' Boxhill) unless the boiler is off the chassis.

If lifting a loco is a consideration then 2 persons for the lift are required.

Jon – I don't think I would want to attempt to build a miniature loco on an old Myford ML4, but in the 40s and 50s many did!

I think a 3.5"g LBSC Juliet should suit your bill with full valve gear. I would regard this as a much better proposition than 'Tich' if you plan to run it. The construction series is in ME and all castings etc are available and the boiler is a piece of cake to make yourself.

Cheers,

Julian

Edited By julian atkins on 30/10/2017 23:54:41

[WearyParticipant @weary]

Posted by Jon Cameron on 30/10/2017 22:21:50:

Posted by Weary on 30/10/2017 20:42:59:

You might also want to look at this very similar thread…… etc.

 

Thanks for that I had a read through that thread though would also like to know what the answer to the last question is regarding gunmetal verses cast iron.

 

In brief, and simplistically = durability.

Cast-iron cylinders, pistons, and piston-rings will require less frequent maintenance than gunmetal fittings with soft-packing sealant (ring) in the pistons. This will be especially noticeable under conditions of frequent and sustained heavy passenger-haulage usage.

Cost may be an implication for some builders, cast-iron being cheaper.

Rust can be kept at bay in cast-iron fittings because usually miniature steam-locomotive cylinders are over-oiled. Combined with thorough post-run cylinder and steam-chest draining, drying, and lubrication, and careful laying-up procedures one will leave an oil-film on the bare metal surfaces.

 

Should cylinder castings in your preferred material not be listed then you can always ask for a one-off quote from the retailer, or machine them yourself from solid stock (billet), and/or – especially relevant to gunmetal – fabricate.

 

Regards,

Phil

Edited By Weary on 01/11/2017 19:44:26

Edited By Weary on 01/11/2017 19:45:42

[Jon CameronParticipant @joncameron26580]

Thanks for that Phil, so cast iron is superior to gunmetal apart from it vulnerability to moisture. So if used then extra steps need to be taken to combat oxy rot. Cheers

Been looking a lot at Conway, and a simple question, looking at the wheels, do the cast iron wheels need purchasing? Or can it be made up from bar stock? The wheel and internal relief turned from cast iron/steel blanks, and the balance weights turned from cast iron/steel to fit the relief, and drilled and screwed to the wheel with countersunk screws??

[Another JohnSParticipant @anotherjohns]

Jon – the fellow with the Conway is away for a few days.

Julian is right as usual – Juliet is another good contender; last one I drove was one with saddle tank, and pulled me along the Kingston (ON, Canada) track just fine!

I'd agree that the Conway wheels could just be turned from steel; I don't think I'd bother about any balance weights, but you are right, they can be added on later with screws or rivets, should you decide.

By the way, my Kozo Hiraoka "original" Shay design that I'm painting, and I believe all others he has designed are built from bar stock, no castings. (I have seen wheels sold as castings to save build time, but his Climax/Heisler/Shay(both) books that I have are casting-free)

I put a Youtube video of the Conway online a while ago – this should be a link:

https://youtu.be/j2RO0z4N0WU

 

Edited By John Alexander Stewart on 02/11/2017 01:20:01

[julian atkinsParticipant @julianatkins58923]

Hi Jon,

If you are interested in a narrow gauge loco…

Conway is a freelance design by Martin Evans. For a little bit more effort you could build a copy of the Hunslet 'Quarry' design. Don Young did a 3.5"g version called Hunslette. Far superior to Conway IMHO. Hunslette also has balanced slide valves (optional) which give a very free exhaust.

From memory there is a problem with Conway's valve gear as it uses launch type links with direct drive.

In the case of both Conway and Hunslette (and Juliet) the wheels can be turned from steel blanks which also provides extra adhesion compared to ordinary cast iron wheels.

Personally I would go for gunmetal cylinders despite the extra cost – though in 3.5"g you may not have a choice anyway.

Cheers,

Julian

[WearyParticipant @weary]

This video opens with a couple of 3.5" gauge Hunslettes. One unpainted, the second initially having issues with cylinder drain-cocks. Should give you a good impression of the design if you are not familiar with it.

Regards,

Phil

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