Simple CAD software.

[Jeff DaymanParticipant @jeffdayman43397]

Hi Raymond,

I have spent a quite a lot of time testing and evaluating Creo up to rev 2. To be perfectly frank I don't know what it is, except a bodged up mixture of code. When driven hard in heavy math surfacing or equation driven curves or in drawing mode it stalls and old style pre-Wildfire drop down menus appear. This tells me the old PTC code is well embedded in Creo, at least in these types of functions. Those menus existed before CoCreate was even formed as a company.

As to usability for basic shapes the sketcher in Creo is still miles behind Solidworks or SolidEdge. I can sketch and model basic shapes in SW many times faster than in ProE or Creo and as I said I have used these programs for years. I am told by an industry insider that SW has patent protected many of its' sketcher methodologies in response to PTC patent protecting much of its' surfacing methodologies to prevent the likes of SW and SE ever using it. One good example which may be a result of this is that in SW there is no command to do a direct sketched cut on a surface entity. There are cuts galore for solid features but not for surfaces. The software requires a guide surface to be sketched intersecting the surf to be cut and then a "trim" is done using the guide surf as a boundary. This type of restrictive activity helps no one in the industry. If PTC would charge a REASONABLE fee to license these patented sub-program features to other firms they could earn income on them rather than just make things difficult for competitors by preventing them using code that would ease things for their users and instead year after year they spend millions fighting in patent courts.

One of the stated deliverables of Creo in the big launch show presentation a few years ago (complete with New Orleans style Jazz band) was a universal database that could read and output native CAD files in ANY available native CAD format. They have not delivered this and I don't believe they can ever deliver it since platforms use different kernels and OS. It made a good sales pitch though. Just like the pitch for Computer Integrated Manufacturing that all CAD companies in the 1980's were pitching and did not deliver. Even now PTC say they offer a full CIM suite but when you get down to it they don't even offer a competent NC programming package along with design software after all these years.

It will be a good day when I retire and never have to deal with PTC again. I'll probably still mess around with Solidworks though, and maybe Solid Edge or OnShape.

Don't mean to belabour the subject but it is something I have had to deal with every day for many years. I have been on the firing line many times when software does not do what salesmen told my managers it would, or takes far longer than the sales pitch said, or isn't as accurate, or won't output clean files, or……..

JD

[Enough!Participant @enough]

Posted by Jeff Dayman on 24/07/2015 16:07:47:

Patterning tools are extremely powerful in SW but in ProE have been problematic for several revisions since Wildfire

I agree with everything you said about Pro/E, Jeff, except this.

Patterning tools were problematic long before Wildfire – certainly in 2000i and 2001i. Even (perhaps especially) simple circular patterning!

[Nigel BennettParticipant @nigelbennett69913]

Oh dear. The OP wanted a simple system for learning to use CAD and it's been hijacked by professional 3D CAD users. (Yes, I'm one too; Pro/E and SW).

As others have mentioned, there are many cheap or free 2D systems about, but they all need a lot of work to enable a newbie user to be able to use. Yes, Draftsight is free, but whenever I've played with that, it's driven me round the bend. If I, as a professional CAD user, can't get on with it, what chance does a complete novice have?

So you choose a CAD system. Assuming that the necessary hair-tearing, screen-punching and vindictive abuse regarding the software designers' parents has subsided, some level of ability to use the system chosen should emerge. This is when the investment pays off, because even with an inexpensive 2D package, it's possible to lay out designs and check for clearances and functionality. Working out co-ordinates for drilling and machining becomes so much easier. You can add all sorts of extra dimensions on the drawing to assist you in manufacture – dimensioning from different datums if you need to. Add a DRO to your machine tool(s) and you can work in metric, Imperial, or barleycorns to suit.

In other words, you will need to invest a significant amount of time and effort on any CAD system before you see a decent return. But you can do it inside in the warm on a cold winter night when the shed is less than inviting!

All CAD packages (without exception) have one serious shortcoming. None of them have a "Just Do It" button. When somebody come up with that, and it works, they'll conquer the world.

[David ColwillParticipant @davidcolwill19261]

My reasoning for suggesting Fusion 360 was simple. Since the original poster has no experience we know he's in for a bit of a slog, so why not invest that time in something that is:-

1) Up to date.

2) Free. (unless he uses it to turn over more than $100K pa)

3) Has a massive team of developers working flat out by the looks of it.

4) Very helpful forums.

5) Capable of very much more than he will ever need.

6) He can easily share his work with other people if he wants to.

I have been very impressed with the attitude of Autodesk regarding this product. It isn't often you see such a big company being so open about what they are doing. I'm sure it isn't perfect but the how much is a licence for Solidworks. As for using 2D I can't see the point. 3D is easier to use now that I'm used to it. The only time I use 2D is for creating DXF files for C.A.M software. Oh wait a minute Fusion has a cam module with Mach 3 posts.

I agree with Nigel above but have found modern 3D cad (I've only used Cubify design and Fusion) easier to get on with than any 2D package.

Just my thoughts.

David

[MalcBParticipant @malcb52554]

An easy CAD system to pick up is Autosketch.

It will not however give you the industry standard .dwg and .dxf files though.

It's quite a powerful package especially for beginners and would be well suited to the posters needs if direct manufacturing files are not needed.

[Gary WoodingParticipant @garywooding25363]

I'll second David's post. I've been using TurboCad since V3 when it was 2D only. It had a steep learning curve but the effort was worth it – I now find it easier and quicker to draw something in TC than using the proverbial back of an envelope, I do most of my work in 3D and use the built-in facilities to produce 2D drawings, but it has to be realised that no CAD system is easy to learn. Many people give up when they think they're the only person to encounter difficulties.

I've now started learning Fusion 360 and I must admit that its an extremely powerful system that will do anything I could throw at it. Its 3D facilities are far beyond TC's and, so far, I don't think its as difficult to use as TC. And its FREE which is the main reason I've not ventured into SolidWorks territory. My recommendation is to download Fusion 360 and spend a while getting to grips with it. Don't give up. You won't be an expert for a while but the rewards will make the effort worthwhile.

[Enough!Participant @enough]

Posted by Malc Broadbent on 25/07/2015 18:23:01:

An easy CAD system to pick up is Autosketch.

Is that still going? I remember it from years back (25 – 30 years). Then Autodesk started to bloat it (and increase the price) until it became Autocad-Lite (with common file formats to Autocad 2D ) for a not particularly amateur price. I lost track then; was Autosketch resurrected at some point?

If not, an old copy would be difficult to find and might well not run in current Windows versions.

Edited By Bandersnatch on 25/07/2015 19:02:10

[Jeff DaymanParticipant @jeffdayman43397]

Here's some basic questions I would ask if evaluating a low cost "simple" CAD package:

1. Can I easily model basic shaped parts and assemblies in 3D? (basic shapes meaning blocks with holes, revolved bodies / lathe turned parts, round parts with holes and grooves)

2. Can I make a 2D multiview drawing of my 3D model and add or show dimensions and notes?

3. Can I output a file for CNC programming for laser cutting, CNC milling, 3D printing, etc. (whatever you might want to do with your CAD models). If the package can output STEP or IGES and STL formats for 3D, and DXF for 2D drawings, you've probably got all you need currently for outputting to other processes. If you get a free PDF generator as well, you can publish your drawings if you like to others.

If a package can do all three items noted above, it's probably all most model engineers need.

Hope that is of some value. JD

[Gas_mantle.Participant @gas_mantle]

Thanks to everyone who offered advice.

I've tried a few free downloads and so far the one I can best handle is FreeCad 0.15, I've been able to create 3D models of simple items like flywheels and the like. My only issue with it is so far I haven't found out how to produce an engineering drawing in which to use as a building plan from the 3D creations. Unless I can do that it kind of defeats the object.

Essentially what I'm trying to do is design a model on the computer then when I'm happy with it print drawings with dimensions etc to build from.

I'll battle on with it a while longer but think in the meantime an older version of TurboCAD has to be worth a try at £10 !

Thanks

Peter.

[BowberParticipant @bowber]

My 2 pence worth.

2D I use draftsight, near enough like autocad that you'll manage to pick up most cad packages almost straight away.

3D is more complicated but Autocads 360 Fusion is good, free and current.

Freecad gets to be hard work unless it's changed in the last 12 months and I'm not sure about the ability to change elements of the design easily.

Also a bit of advise re using the software, 2D you can get away with being self taught but it's easier if you get a good book that'll teach you some basic principles like using layers.

Teaching yourself 3D? Yes it can be done but usually by current 2D cad users, starting from scratch it can be a frustrating experience, the problem is getting the work flow right so that you can correct mistakes or make alterations to designs, making sure you have parts constrained correctly so that you can alter a hole position without the rest of the part turning inside out etc
With 3D it is really worth taking your time to learn the process correctly as it will save you a huge amount of time later on when you've spent days modeling that 18 cylinder radial engine down to the last nut and bolt and then find you can't get the 300 8BA bolts in the size you were told you could!

I'm not trying to put you off, far from it but starting off correctly will help immensely

Steve

[Bodger BrianParticipant @bodgerbrian]

Engineering drawing certainly can be produced from FreeCad. There is a helpful forum for users, so there's no need to thrash around in the dark getting frustrated.

I would agree with those that say to try as many different packages as you can – what one person finds easy, another will struggle with. I've used a few CAD packages professionally over the years but wanted something cheap (or free!) that I could use at home. I settled on Draftsight quite a while ago and recently when I needed 3D, I tried & discarded various software, including TurboCad, then decided that FreeCad fitted the bill.

I don't want to step on anyone's toes in my first post but I'm not sure that I agree with the poster who said that as a professional CAD user he didn't get on with Draftsight & therefore what chance did a complete novice have. I would suggest that a complete novice would have every chance (with any 2D software, not just Draftsight) as they won't have too many preconceptions about how things should be done.

[Ed DuffnerParticipant @edduffner79357]

Hi Peter,

I've recently started using Fusion 360 and find it very easy to get along with. There almost always seems to be a solution to questions in a video on Youtube or from the built-in help system. Drawings can automatically be generated from models and parts.

Ed.

[Gas_mantle.Participant @gas_mantle]

Hi Ed,

Isn't the Fusion 360 a time limited 30 day trial ?

I'd did look at their site but it didn't seem very clear and said something about it being unlimited if you work in education but otherwise it was subscription to continue.

I'll have another read on their site, maybe I've misunderstood it.

Peter

[David JuppParticipant @davidjupp51506]

Peter

The UK Autodesk site is not as clear as it might be about Fusion360, the US site is somewhat clearer. Have a good hunt around, some pages don't seem to have been updated to reflect recent changes of policy.

[MM57Participant @mm57]

I've been playing with F360 also. A few thoughts:

– it's not time limited for non-commercial use – you download it as if it was, but IIRC you click on "My account" or somesuch when you are in it and change to "I'm a non-commercial user" and the time limit disappears

– I found it really hard at first, having never even used a semi-serious CAD tool – took me a long time to find a really simple tutorial that told me when to press the different mouse buttons/type a dimension/press Enter/press Esc etc

– I'm sort of used to it now – I can sketch in 2D/push pull to get 3D/layout multiple countersunk holes etc and I'm slowly getting used to it for simple 3D shapes

– I've seen some CAM tutorials but not tried it yet

– I have absolutely no idea how to create multiple parts and do assemblies of them etc
,
The biggest current problem is that I can't work out how to go back in time and change a step eg

– create a cube in 3D

– put four holes through it, via "circle layout" or whatever it's called, one in each (2D) corner

– do other stuff – round the corners, put a slot on one face etc

– go back and change the 4 holes from being in the corner to being in the middle of each (2D) side and still have all the things after that point

i,e I can use it "linearly" but I can't suss out how to go back and change a previous step due to design error/re-design
..so at the moment it's a one-shot "do it right first time or start again from scratch"

Any ideas how to get to that next level of understanding? TIA, Martin

[Ed DuffnerParticipant @edduffner79357]

Re: Fusion 360 license. From this link **LINK** …if you hover your mouse pointer over the Info circle in the upper right white panel you see the following;

"Access the same design software used by industry leaders worldwide. A free 3-year license is available for students, teachers, and academic institutions.

A free 1-year startup license is also available for hobbyists, enthusiasts, makers, and emerging businesses that make less than US$100,000 in revenue per year. At the end of 1 year, you can reselect the startup entitlement or transition to a commercial entitlement.

See Terms of Service: Autodesk Web Services Entitlements. "

So it appears that it's free if you don't make $100,000 per year and I believe it's just a case of re-registering for the free license after the year is up.

Martin,

If you create a sketch on the face of your cube where you want to put your circles (and any other feature) and draw the circles anywhere on that plane, you can then dimension the exact position of the circles from each of the corners of the cube, close the sketch and do your push/pull operation on the circles to create the holes.

To change the position of the holes, just right click on the sketch entry in the Browser list and select Edit, you can then reposition any of the circles to anywhere and re-dimension them from edges or each other etc. If you then close the sketch, the holes will be automatically redrawn at the new positions. Hope that makes sense.

Ed.

[Gas_mantle.Participant @gas_mantle]

Thanks Ed I've downloaded it and will give it a go this evening.

Peter.

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

Like most mid-range CAD programs, you can "wind the clock back" using the history trees slider which is along the bottom of the screen, rather than vertically at the left like most programs. If you want to redefine the positions or dimensions of a feature, generally you highlight the sketch you used to create it from, select "edit sketch" and directly edit the bits you want to modify. F360 also lists all of the sketches on the left so you can double click on a sketch to go directly into it.

The one aspect of making assemblies that I find rather irritating in F360 is the way they require you convert the parts to "blocks" or somesuch description before you can assemble them together. Once you have converted them, you find you can't go back to edit the parts using the feature / history tree – it seems to be a one-way conversion. Can't imagine why they did this but have to assume it's some form of workaround for the way they assembled F360 from existing applications – it's not how Inventor (its bigger brother) does it. I concluded that the best way round this is to copy the parts you want to assemble over into your working assembly "folder". This way, you can go back to the original folder and modify the originals. Apart from the above irritation, making assemblies from parts is fairly straightforward. There is the usual range of mates / constraints etc and you need to figure out which ones to use and how to apply them.

Creating proper, fully dimensioned 2D drawings is fairly straightforward in F360, even if it's not quite as slick as the likes of Solidworks. The skill of creating these drawings isn't simply to show every dimension required to fully define the part so much as providing the information (dimensions) to machine the part up from stock. You need to think through the sequence you will follow to machine the parts up. If you don't do this carefully, you end up with a calculator and pen, marking up the drawing as you stand at the machine trying to figure out the next operation.

Once you end your 30 day trial, you declare that you are a hobby user, student or startup and the license then becomes perpetual, subject to your status not changing. You get free updates and a secure online account. And yes, you can save your Fusion files locally by importing them and exporting them in the native .f3d format or exporting as .stl, .stp or .igs. Importing / uploading seems to support almost all of the known proprietary formats

We're all different but I find the best way to learn is a combination of trial and error, doing the free tutorial exercises, buying a book and watching the Youtube "how to / introductory" vidoes. There don't seem to be any books yet but there's plenty of online learning material.

As others have said, there is no right or wrong product here. It's down to individual preference and availability. Having said that, with F360 you get a lot of features that you would otherwise pay thousands for – for free – plus a professional supplier (Autodesk) and a large user base. I'm also pretty excited that they have thrown in full 3D CAM (HSM Works). If you ever fancy getting into CNC, this is another massive bonus.

Murray

Edited By Muzzer on 28/07/2015 19:20:51

[John HinkleyParticipant @johnhinkley26699]

One thing nobody has pointed out (in this thread) is that Fusion 360 is only available for 64-bit systems. I'd be interested to try it, but my desktop and ancient laptop (in computer terms) are both 32-bit.

John

[Brian HParticipant @brianh50089]

I've been using an old version of a program called DesignCAD 3D Max Plus for a number of years but very off & on, with the emphasis on the OFF.

I have only every used it in 2D to produce drawings for the workshop and so I've been looking at an upgrade to the latest 2D version having established that this would still recognise drawings produced by the 3D version.

Does anyone have any experience of using these programs or are there better ones?

[Bill PudneyParticipant @billpudney37759]

I downloaded Fusion 360 a few days ago, as a result of the favourable comments in this thread. I've managed to get it going a couple of times, when it seems pretty good, especially considering the cost!! However, sadly it seems reluctant to start, 9 times out of 10….literally….it just sits there, eventually, several minutes later it comes up with the message that it's not responding. I'm about to get in touch with Autodesk to see what's going on.

Sad to say overall I'm not terribly impressed so far. Maybe it's back to TurboCad!!

cheers

Bill

[Gas_mantle.Participant @gas_mantle]

Hi Bill,

If it's any consolation I recently downloaded Fusion 360 and have similar problems sometimes.

I was getting a message saying something 'like update the graphics driver' I did go to the Intel updates page and downloaded a newer version ( I think ?) and it now seems a lot better but does still play up from time to time.

Peter.

[David ColwillParticipant @davidcolwill19261]

I have fitted new graphics cards (GeForce 210 @ £22.00 each) to my PC's that I use for drawing and more memory in one of them. I was looking to upgrade my CAM software which would have been in the order of £300 / £500, so spending £60 on bits for the computers was not an issue. Since doing this I have not had any further problems. I think these problems crop up when using the onboard graphics. The cpu in the slowest computer is 2.6GHz. I should point out that both of the computers are over a year old and were about the cheapest I could get at the time.

I'm still finding my way round but am very happy so far.

[Ed DuffnerParticipant @edduffner79357]

I've been having a few problems with start-up in Fusion 360 lately, taking 30 seconds plus. Tried today and it auto-installed the latest update which seems to fix some start-up issues according to the release notes and now takes about 10 seconds. Correction, just checked twice more and it's around 14 seconds.

One thing I have noticed is that my Norton security software detects a UDP internet connection from Fusion 360 during the updates, which I need to allow, not block.

Ed.

Edited By Ed Duffner on 07/08/2015 11:59:36

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

The "360" suffix used in Autodesk's products indicate that they are using cloud-based storage ie you need to give them an internet connection. It is possible to work offline (there's a drop down on the top RHS) but you need to have saved your work locally to do so of course.

My Fusion takes about 15-16 seconds to completely load up and it's a fairly powerful machine. Some of that must be the cloud connection. Solidworks takes about 10 seconds but doesn't need to go looking for the cloud.

I had real problems recently getting the 3D mouse support working with Onshape. Turns out that the antivirus (ESET) was blocking a connection. I don't understand the details but there's a lot going on in these machines and there are many antivirus programs to contend with.

I found the Fusion online support quite helpful when I used it, so if you think there's an issue, it may be worth getting in touch via the "community forum". This is one benefit of using a current and well-supported product – in addition to the cost or lack of it.

Murray

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