Safety and superglue chucks

[David CambridgeParticipant @davidcambridge45658]

I’m asking this question from a perspective of total ignorance.

I’ve been enjoying the excellent Clickspring videos and I quite fancy having a go at making his gyroscope. He uses a ‘super glue’ chuck to temporarily glue the gyroscope wheel to an aluminium plate held in the lathe chuck. It might be OK to do this (?), but I can’t help but worry that the spinningcutting forces on a 0.3 kg mass held only with glue seems a bit dodgy? Does anyone have any thoughts ?

Obviously facing a small clock gear isn’t going to go that badly wrong, but a gyro wheel does have quite a bit more momentum to hit you with if it comes loose.

David

Edited By David Cambridge on 30/11/2016 13:00:30

[David CambridgeParticipant @davidcambridge45658]

Safety and superglue chucks

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

I share your reticence. At one time I watxhed a woodworking vid where a bowl blank was pva'd via a brown paper gasket to a timbered back-plate for turning and thought I'd try it. A chunk of spinning birch launching itself across my hobby-shed put paid to repetition. There are times when you want to bury your pants rather than put them in the laundry.

[wheeltapperParticipant @wheeltapper]

He does turn a spigot on the superglue chuck that fits in the flywheel hole so that should stop it flying off sideways.

he must also be able to get better superglue over there than the watered down rubbish on sale here.

Roy.

[EmgeeParticipant @emgee]

Hi David

Perhaps less liely to be a problem if you can bore a shallow recess in the plate to suit the diameter of the gyroscope wheel, this would take any side forces so less likely to lose the job if taking light cuts.

If you need to turn the OD leave that operation till last.

Before cynoing the part in make sure any air can escape from the joint by drilling a hole through the plate or mill a grove to the bottom of the recess diameter.

Emgee

Beaten to it again, must learn to type faster !!!!!!

Edited By Emgee on 30/11/2016 13:34:35

[David JuppParticipant @davidjupp51506]

You have to understand the risks and operate accordingly. There is a chance of the part becoming detached, so make sure you aren't in the potential line of flight, or arrange protective guarding. Be aware that although superglues can be very strong they generally have poor impact resistance – interrupted cuts may be asking for trouble. High temperature will degrade the bond too, so take care the work doesn't get too hot.

Doesn't seem so very different from old fashioned shellac chucks. Follow instructions for the glue carefully to ensure a good bond (cleanliness etc.).

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

I was brought up on the paper interface method of mounting for bowl turning (never lost one), but always rounded the corners as far as possible to reduce initial vibrations before starting. Glue was always pearl glue (animal based).

I expect Jason to comment.

[David lawrence 3Participant @davidlawrence3]

Hi, after watching these videos on clock making I superglued my clock wheel onto a rotary table to cut the gears, after 3 teeth the wheel flow of across the workshop, after 3 more attempts with a top rated superglue it happen again so I stopped and made a mandrill for the RT. I have made other superglue chucks for the lathe which worked better but the big problem was removing the superglue from the part, I tried every solvent made and still it wont come off, the part is still on the shelve. In the world of clockmaking super glue chucks are common in the US but not so much over here, the clickspring videos must the best ever made on you tube, puts all mine to shame. I am building the same clock as chris and thinking about redoing some parts as his are so good.

[wheeltapperParticipant @wheeltapper]

That's the thing with Chris at Clickspring, he makes me feel so dam' inadequate.

whats really annoying is, I've got the same lathe, doesn't seem to work the same for me. Sigh.

Oh well, one can dream.

Roy.

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

If in doubt reduce the speed. The energy stored in the rotating part depends on the square of the speed so, if the speed is kept down the potential for damage if the glue breaks is reduced.

Russell.

[David Standing 1Participant @davidstanding1]

Posted by David lawrence 3 on 30/11/2016 15:30:01:

after 3 more attempts with a top rated superglue it happen again so I stopped and made a mandrill for the RT.

You glued a monkey to your faceplate? That's a bit cruel………….

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

The trouble with glue is that you have to get everything right and any deviations weaken the bond. I've had good results from superglue metal to metal chucking BUT:

• Everything has to be scrupulously clean
• Superglue has a very short shelf-life. Best to use new glue and use it up quickly.
• The materials being glued have to be compatible (as per the instructions)
• The bond is destroyed by heat. As cutting makes metal hot, you have to take care not to cook the joint.
• Gentle cuts – Superglue joints have low sheer strength.
• Gaps weaken the joint.

I've convinced myself that it helps to breath on the glue film just before making the joint. Could be imagining this!

A successful superglue joint can sometimes be broken with a sharp sideways tap and/or after a soak in Acetone Nail Varnish remover. I usually heat the item with a blowlamp (to something over 100C for a few minutes, not red-hot), and then – gloves on – tap it sideways with a hammer. Delicate parts I've done on an electric cooker ring. This is turned off as soon as the part gets too hot to touch, left a few minutes and then prised off while still warm. Rarely works first time for me – repeat heating as necessary.

Dave

[mechman48Participant @mechman48]

I made a gyroscope to Chris's Clicksprings design & I have yet to get it to rotate properly; all the dimensions are to his sizes & it does rotate but with a great amount of wobble then shoots off the table… I have yet to figure out where I've gone wrong… is there too much mass at the outer rim for it to be stable… are my undercuts in the wheel slightly off centre… is the bore centre ever so slightly off… etc. etc. I used twine to set it spinning but I suspect it needs a lot more energy to get it up to speed at the periphery to stabilise than I can impart with twine. In fact I made two as I discovered that the first spindle was ever so slightly bent even tho' I used bought silver steel.



I have even watched other video's on YouTube of gyro's & they used other mechanical means of energy to impart spin e.g. rubber drive wheels on a Dremel, compressed air etc. so my attempts with a metre of twine pulled as fast as I can just doesn't hack it… something ain't right, … … I wonder if Chris has extra long arms… . Needless to say both attempts have been relegated to the 'go back 2duit later box' … …

2nd attempt, this time machining holes in the centre to allow more mass to the outer rim for better c/fugal effect, did improve slightly but still wobbled & shot off the table… holes machined using dro co-ordinates to keep every thing as balanced as poss', comments / constructive criticism most welcome…

Good luck with your attempt David.

George.

[Alan Wood 4Participant @alanwood4]

At the risk of going against the flow, they work superbly for clockmaking.

The issue is that the superglue is only effective at any air interfaces between the two materials and as mentioned cleanliness is essential. The earlier mentioned moisture from breathing on the glue is relevant.

Clockmaker Bill Smith suggested making a number of groves on the face of the 'chuck' to increase the number of air interfaces. See below. The superglue is painted onto the flats but not excessively and the clock wheel pressured into place using a centre in the tailstock and held as such for 5 minutes or so.

I have successfully machined some large diameter wheels using this technique from what were initial very horribly hacked profiles. Lots of ting ting tinging from the cutter but no BANG and duck.

The bond is a 'bu~~er' to break afterwards and needs a torch flame to part the 'chuck' and wheel.

Health and Safety on the fumes duly noted.

[SteveMParticipant @stevem36008]

Posted by pgk pgk on 30/11/2016 13:06:58:

"…. There are times when you want to bury your pants rather than put them in the laundry."

That made me laugh. I really wish there was a 'This was really funny' button.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

I just looked at his vid. I note the correctly sized arbor to remove any radial displacement. I note his glue is at the periphery, where it will set and there is a finite glue thickness. I also note that all cuts were made such that the item could not fly off and go into orbit without breaking the arbor. That is except the final chamfer on the back side of the flywheel outer edge.

Seems safe enough. Light cuts with a sharp tool and keep out of the line of fire, should anything go wrong (it can happen). An appropriate anaerobic loctite, and leave for long enough to cure, might be another/better alternative to pound shop glue.

If you are still overly hysterical, then use a longer arbor and thread it for a holding nut? Drill through (where one or more of the final holes were going to be positioned) into the holding mandrel, thread and screw in some brass threaded rod. Lots of ways to go OTT on the safety aspect, if you are that worried, I am sure!

[Andrew TinsleyParticipant @andrewtinsley63637]

I have used shellac for turning small parts on the faceplate of my Bolley watchmakers lathe for many years without a failure.

I would not use cyano glue. I am an aeromodeller and used cyano for a while, I have stopped using it because even the best, in date cyano produces a brittle joint. Any shock load and it breaks. Shellac on the other hand tends to give a little under shock loads and returns to its original position.

Andrew.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 30/11/2016 17:43:35:

A successful superglue joint can sometimes be broken with a sharp sideways tap and/or after a soak in Acetone Nail Varnish remover. I usually heat the item with a blowlamp (to something over 100C for a few minutes, not red-hot),

I've started using a hot air gun, or even the rework gun for small parts l- less chance of collateral damage!

Neil

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

Iforgotten where I saw it advertised but you can get "industrial strength" superglue? It might not be the best stuff in the universe but I wouldn't want a world without it.

Michael W

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 07/12/2016 14:38:11:

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 30/11/2016 17:43:35:

A successful superglue joint can sometimes be broken with a sharp sideways tap and/or after a soak in Acetone Nail Varnish remover. I usually heat the item with a blowlamp (to something over 100C for a few minutes, not red-hot),

I've started using a hot air gun …

Neil

Is that the type used for stripping paint Neil? I've got one somewhere and never thought of using it on superglue.

I must be getting old-fashioned. Although I've done a lot of soldering I've always thought of rework guns as a passing craze. Now I've done some research I want one for Christmas!

Dave

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

There are several grades of super glue. Viscosity and in terms of what they are meant to stick together. Some bearing supplier stock loctite and may well have the range of super glues to go with it. Not cheap. I buy mine when it's out of date. Loctite too. It's amazing how old that can be and still function. With both I am always very careful to use the bottle suction when it's released to suck the drop on the end back in and never ever wipe the tip with anything.

Dave's breath on it makes sense as moisture will make it cure too. The other thing is lack of air. The rings might help ensure that only a thin film is used. They aren't gap fillers, far from it.

I've not used it as a chuck but it's clear any grease or oil will cause grief. I have used ordinary double sided sticky tape but more for woodwork. It can be very difficult to separate the parts especially if it's 4 shaped table legs as I found out one day. I sawed and spoke shaved the profile by eye and couldn't separate them but did manage eventually.

John

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[Nick WheelerParticipant @nickwheeler]

Posted by Michael Walters on 07/12/2016 14:47:58:

Iforgotten where I saw it advertised but you can get "industrial strength" superglue? It might not be the best stuff in the universe but I wouldn't want a world without it.

Buying it from an industrial supplier means you get a much higher quality product than is available in the high street, and you get to pick a grade that is suitable for the job. Even using an expensive company like Wurth is far better value than most retail shops.

[Adam PhillipsParticipant @adamphillips50363]

I use superglue all the time to hold small Silver and Gold bezels on boxwood chucks and it works fine.The important thing for me to remember is not to let the part get to hot I normally have a damp rag to hand and cool the part every minute or so. Take small cuts and go slow. To remove the part a little heat and a gentle prize with a sharp knife should lift the piece of.

[Ian WelfordParticipant @ianwelford58739]

Or leave it to soak in acetone ( nail varnish remover ) overnight softens the glue drastically or removes it .

Careful not to ruin your nails though

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