Proxxon PD400 vs HBM 180 lathe

[Sonic EscapeParticipant @sonicescape38234]

What would you choose between a PD400 and an HBM 180 lathe? I found and PD400 in very good condition, like new. But is still 600 euro more expensive than a brand new HBM 180. Does it worth the difference? Is Proxxon really that good comparing with a “good quality” Chinese lathe?

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Look also at the ‘extras’ as they seem to have similar specs. It looks like the HBM has a set over tailstock facility which is both a benefit if you need adjustment and a curse if it needs adjustment. I’m familiar with the Proxxon range of tools for modellers but didn’t realise they also did lathes. Their other tools are always technically good but rather expensive bit like choosing between a Merc and a Ford car. If you just want to get there a Ford is good enough. Perhaps the biggest worry with a Chinese mini is that electronic speed control reliability though I think that is getting better now.

[Roger BParticipant @rogerb61624]

The PD 400 is a good lathe. I was considering buying one when a very well equipped Hobbymat came along.

The biggest disadvantage is the unique chuck fitting so that chucks and faceplates, etc need to be from Proxxon. Accessories for the Chinese mini lathes are much easier to find (and cheaper).

Does the PD 400 you are looking at have a good selection of equipment?

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

You have probably found this already; but just in case …

https://www.proxxon-tools.com.au/downloads/manuals/24400%20PD400.pdf

It looks like a good quality machine, very nicely documented.

MichaelG.

[Sonic EscapeParticipant @sonicescape38234]

Yes, Proxxon might be a good machine. But I have some doubts. It has an aluminium or zinc tail stock. And a more primitive electronic variable speed, with only two steps. You need to change gears for more. I was looking for a reason why to spend more for it. Afterall a new Proxxon costs 3 times more than a new HBM.

[Martin of WickParticipant @martinofwick]

IMHO Proxxon are massively overpriced and deeply underperforming tools. Suitable for small /toy stuff/ model ships etc. I say this having owned their mill and mini table saw. They look flashy, but that is all. The 400 is a badged version of a  seig C1 only  not as good value

The 180 is a much more robust machine and generic to most other Chinese minilathes

If you will only ever want to make small parts for model ships /dolls houses/ toy railways / or possibly clock parts then buy the 180, because come the day you wish to expand your horizons, you will wish you had if you don’t.

If you want a more flexible stronger machine to start with, then get the 180 and give the bird to the Proxxon.

That is your choice.

[Martin of WickParticipant @martinofwick]

And  as Roger B says, lower cost accessories for Chinese minilathe (tradewars not withstanding etc!). It will ahave a sensible taper in the spindle and you will able to to get all manner of various collet fittings / chucks/adapters if you wish to do small stuff, without being stiffed by Mr Proxxon.

[Martin of Wick]

On Martin of Wick Said:

IMHO Proxxon are massively overpriced and deeply underperforming tools. Suitable for small /toy stuff/ model ships etc. I say this having owned their mill and mini table saw. They look flashy, but that is all. The 400 is a badged version of a  seig C0 only  not as good value

Also, they are massively different machines to start with. Sowatchagonnado with your lathe? The 400 has a centre height of only 40mm or so […]

So is it an outright lie when the spec declares 85mm ?

Sorry … I am genuinely confused

MichaelG.

[Martin of WickParticipant @martinofwick]

On their puff it states a swing of 85mm, having read a little more I realise they must actually mean a CH of 85mm  as they go on to quote 55mm over the cross slide, I was confused by their mistranslation.

Doesn’t change my view, but it is like a poor version of TOYO 210 or seig C1.

It was 20 years ago today, that Sergeant Pepper told…. er sorry, that I started out in the hobby looking for an affordable small lathe considered a Proxxon 400 and couldn’t understand why it was 4 times the price of a very similar looking machine from Arc Eurotrade. 20 Years on, I still have my  C1 and very useful and reliable for small stuff it has been.

 

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

I have regretted both my Proxxon purchases.

[Roger BParticipant @rogerb61624]

I am happy with all my Proxxon machines, FD150 Lathe, MF70 Mill, TB 220 drill. I understand their limitations and have discussed some of them with Proxxon. The question is, as ever, what do you want the machine for?

The PD 400 lathe has a quite tight specification for runout.

The FD 150 has a completely different target market and specification. Proxxon would not offer a 4 jaw independent chuck for this lathe as they didn’t think the users would understand balance. They offer a 4 jaw self centring chuck so the users can work with square material.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

I was particularly impressed to see that Proxxon has a Vernier scale on the top-slide angular adjustment  [see fig.11a] … which seems like an encouraging touch of class.

I’ve never seen one in the flesh, so I cannot comment further.

MichaelG.

[HuubParticipant @huub]

I have bought 2 HBM lathes (HBM300 and HBM BF290) and one HBM mill (HBM BF16). None of them is perfect but they are all very usable and accurate (0.02 mm) if you treat them as non rigid hobby machines.

Rigidity is important. The heavier (also cast iron) HBM is far more rigid than the Proxxon. Unless you only make very small and short (10 mm max) parts, I would go for the HBM. That doesn’t mean the Proxxon is a bad machine. For larger parts, the HBM will do a better job.

[Neil AParticipant @neila]

A few years ago I found myself in a similar position trying to decide between two different lathes. In my case it was between a Sieg SC3 and a Warco WM180. Both would have fulfilled my needs, but I favoured the robustness of the WM180, despite the shorter between centre distance. At the time the WM180 was only supplied with a 600watt Brushed motor, but the Seig SC3 had a 500watt Brushless motor which was the type of motor I really wanted.

My reason for favouring the brushless design is that it is a totally enclosed motor, so no swarf can get inside. Also, the coils are held in the outer casing and do not rely on a fan for cooling. The cooling of the rotor coils in the brushed design is by a fan drawing in air from the end casing and so is open to metal particles being drawn in. The amount of cooling is dependent on the motor speed, low spindle speeds give low air flow through the motor. Some users have introduced addition fans to give greater motor cooling.

In the end, I bought an AMABL180 lathe with a brushless motor from Amadeal and I have been very happy with it. Warco now supply the WM180 lathe with a brushless motor. Too late for me, I had already wasted too much time trying to make up my mind.

Just one point, the 180 design does not cut left hand threads as supplied. Users have produced modifications to enable this to be done, I’ve never had the need so far, maybe one day.

The choice of lathe is always a compromise. As others have said, it all depends on what you are using the lathe for.

Neil

[Graham MeekParticipant @grahammeek88282]

There is a common misconception that the lathes with any hint of aluminium in their construction are not capable of any form of precision engineering.

 

My Emco Compact 5 recently turned a new front part for my recently purchased 80mm Emco chuck. The part above was machined from a 90 mm blank of Cast Iron with no problem at all. The finished item is open to any inspection as regards fit, function or run-out.

The Proxxon PD 400 and the Compact 5 are of the same construction and capacity. Thus why do Proxxon machines have to be restricted to making toys and boats?

You can see more work produced on the Compact 5 lathe and the Proxxon FF230 mill on my other two posts covering these machines.

Regards

Gray,

 

 

[bernard towersParticipant @bernardtowers37738]

I have a feeling that a lot of the opinions come from people who have not used the said machinery and really dont appreciate SHARP tools.

[Sonic EscapeParticipant @sonicescape38234]

I guess that Proxxon PD 400 is a decent lathe but I was more interested in finding a reason to justify the extra cost. Because a used one cost 50% more that a new HBM 180. There has to be some serious quality difference between the two to justify this.

[howardbParticipant @howardb]

HBM as a company are ok – I have bought items from them before – not machines, but they are reliable and prompt with their deliveries.

I have to say that the HBM looks the more solid machine, nice protection for the leadscrew and for you, not getting your clothing caught in it etc.

The Proxon looks like it needs the optional splash guard and chip collecting tray to protect the motor from swarf, which comes standard on the HBM.

I would go for the HBM in your shoes.

[Martin of WickParticipant @martinofwick]

There has to be some serious quality difference between the two to justify this.

Why? That is proxxon’s marketing approach to differentiate themselves from the box shifters. It is what they want you to believe, but they are just charging what they think the market can bear.  If anyone is prepared to hawk up close to 3 grand (new) when they could have  purchased the equivalent or better for half to a third of that, so much to the good of Poxxon.

Usually when I have queried a products high price in relation to similar competitors the stock response has been along the lines of …’ ah! well sir ,we are not a mass market provider, we cater for a more discerning customer and persons of quality etc’. (ie we don’t expect to sell our overpriced products to the likes of proles and smelly socks of your type, so hop it sonny…).

Only you can justify whether you are prepared to pay more based on your personal perception/approach to price performance ratio. Just try to think ahead as to what you might want to use the the machine for in future rather than the immediate requirement.

 

 

 

[Graham MeekParticipant @grahammeek88282]

One piece of advice given to me by late Father when buying any item.

“The Cheapest is the dearest in the long run”

This is something I have found to be true in the past, both from youthful exuberance, and the experience of others.

Regards

Gray,

[Andy IIParticipant @andyii]

Hello – As a long time forum lurker here, but apparently a rare UK PD400 owner, I thought as my first post I would offer some thoughts on the PD400 given that there appears to be some confusion above:

The PD400 is an 85 mm centre height machine actually made by Proxxon in Germany i.e. not a rebadged import or a branding exercise. I recall reading that it was developed from the Japanese Toyo ML360 (the big brother to the ML210), which Proxxon had built under license as the PD360 before developing the PD400. At first glance it does indeed look oddly expensive when compared to Chinese machines, but not so expensive when compared to other European built machines (e.g. Myford/Wabeco/Emco when last available). Reflecting that, the (subjective) fit/finish/feel is notably better than any Chinese machine of a similar size that I have seen, whilst not quite being as good as Myford/Emco standards. Is “Made in Europe” worth the extra money? that depends what you want to do with it, how long you think you will use it, and what exactly it is you enjoy about the hobby – i.e. everyone will have their own individual answer 🙂

Some non-obvious things that I appreciate about the PD400 design compared to other similarly sized machines that I have seen:

• The two speed motor and three speed poly-v belt drive system of the PD400 gives quite impressive low speed torque compared to the typical variable speed drives on most other machines of the same size. Belt speed changing is a bit of a faff compared to variable speed, but I find in practice that the middle belt speed with hi/lo motor speed can be used for most of what I do, and I appreciate the availability of low speed torque when needed. (The motor is an electrically fully enclosed with external fan type i.e. splashback not strictly necessary).
• Whilst front mount chucks for the PD400 are harder to find, they are much more convenient to change than the rear mount chucks common on most modern small machines. (Strictly the Proxxon spindle fitting is to German standard DIN6350 i.e. not actually a Proxxon special, but still not so easy to find in the UK. TOS and Bison make chucks that fit, but they are not economical as they once were. However, the dimensions are such that it is possible to fit Chinese standard front mount chucks with a little ingenuity).
• Graduated handwheels on both the leadscrew and saddle handle make turning to accurate lengths easy. Surprisingly often neither seem to be fitted as standard on other machines, although a leadscrew handle is normally easy to add. The leadscrew clutch that allows the leadscrew to turn without turning the change gears makes using the leadscrew manually to set precise lengths much easier. A tumbler reverse would be nice, but in practice I doubt I would use reverse feed very often and the machine can cut LH threads if needed.

To make a potentially controversial statement, I am pretty sure that for the kind of work I do the ~50kg PD400 can remove metal on average faster than the ~85kg Myford ML7 that I had access to in the past (old, but reasonable condition). This is the case even for ~100 mm steel diameters (the largest I normally use), for which you would expect the heavier Myford to have a clear advantage. Having never seen an HBM180 I cannot compare to that, but I make the point simply to illustrate that more cast iron does not always translate to a more rigid machine.

I bought the PD400 because I had an enjoyable experience with a Unimat-3-in-a-cupboard set up during lockdown, when I did not have access to the ML7. The PD400 seemed like a good way of replicating that on a slightly larger scale in a small upstairs spare room. Like all machines it has its oddities, and if I had more space I would have gone for a larger Chinese or second hand machine, but for my use and with my constraints I find that the PD400 works well for its size and is enjoyable to use.

(It may be worth searching on more European forums with the aid of google translate (if needed) for further opinions, as I think the PD400 is more common there, particularly in Germany).

[Graham Meek]

On Graham Meek Said:

One piece of advice given to me by late Father when buying any item.

“The Cheapest is the dearest in the long run”

This is something I have found to be true in the past, both from youthful exuberance, and the experience of others.

Regards

Gray,

My father was a clever chap, but he didn’t get everything right, not by a long shot!

Bad news: “The Cheapest is the dearest in the long run” isn’t axiomatic.   It’s a blurred simplification, often used to justify unwise spending.

Much of my career was spent in Procurement, where a more thoughtful approach is taken.   Briefly, a requirement is defined to make it clear what the item is for.  Wants are pruned: it’s about needs.  What’s meant by “the long run” is defined, not left loose.  Finally ways by which “fit for purpose” and “value for money” will be measured are decided.

The purpose is to increase choice by eliminating politics, emotion and prejudice from the purchase.  The process clarifies what is “good enough” and takes nothing for granted.   Should you buy an expensive cut-throat razor that lasts a lifetime, or disposables?   Most shavers prefer disposables for a “fit for purpose” reason – they’re safer!

One of my father’s friends emigrated to the USA and ended up managing a factor specialising in spares for foreign cars.  Finding that spares made by Lucas were far more expensive than Far Eastern clones, he asked the Lucas sales rep to explain, and got the “they’re cheaper in the long run” argument.  Unfortunately this was corporate puff.  The truth was that the factor’s returns record showed expensive Lucas parts weren’t as reliable as cheaper alternatives.  High cost does not guarantee quality.

Though hobbyists are free to spend their money as they like, I suggest adages like “The Cheapest is the dearest in the long run” are unreliable.  My advice to anyone on a budget is don’t waste money!   The best way to do that is to think for yourself.  “Reassuringly Expensive” is a con too…

Sonic’s exam question is  Proxxon PD400 vs HBM 180?   I can’t answer that because I don’t know what Sonic’s requirement is.  Neither meets my needs – both lathes are too small!  Cost doesn’t enter into it.

Dave

[Graham MeekParticipant @grahammeek88282]

Dave,

Your comments about your father and his life story are your concern. I am only interested in what my Father said to me. His advice to me I have always found to be sound, and yes he was a clever chap, consider his mining roots.

As regards the pro’s and cons of pricing and value for money I will leave that for you to debate to your hearts desire.

As regards your 3 volume replies, which seem to be coming the norm on here. I am afraid I do not read them.

I am a firm believer in the KISS principle.

Regards

Gray,

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

I would ‘umbly suggest that this topic is getting futile

Sonic only appears to be interested in the lathes “because they are there”

The €600 delta cost for buying one [secondhand] rather than the other [new] is ultimately down to his perception, not ours …

What do you think of the two items that are actually on offer, Sonic ?

MichaelG.

[Sonic EscapeParticipant @sonicescape38234]

HBM 180 remains my favorite. Proxxon is a nice machine but I see no reason to pay much more for it. Now I’m arranging my new workshop. When it will be ready I’ll order an HBM. There is no rush. It is always available at a local supplier. Meanwhile I’ll keep an eye on the used lathes market here.

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