Open thoughts

[Terence Yates 1Participant @terenceyates1]

Hi, and there's the expert. Ex , a has been. and spurt, a drip under pressure.

Terry.

[CrabtreeengineerParticipant @crabtreeengineer]

I've been very fortunate in life in that I have made a good living out of Engineering & Engineering is also my hobby, my passion, I have a copy of Machineries hand book by my bedside. After all these years I still find it interests me & I learn each & eveyday.

I now run my own consulting company, I am a time served Chartered Engineer holding an MSc. In Engineering. (Thats Minor Space Cadet to you!) However, I am at my happiest when turning up some swarf!

On my business card I use my titles, but also use a very old black & white photograph of me at 16 running a gun barrel lathe. ( I find that the photograph keeps my feet firmly on the ground & reminds me daily of where I started,)

Frankly I find that my Msc. & CEng. open doors & gets me work, but what keeps people coming back is a quality product at the right price.

At the end of the day, you are only as good as your last job, or as good as your immediate supervisor thinks you are. This statement holds true for Commercial Engineering just as it does for Model Engineering….with Er indoors being your immediate supervisor.

Never mind all this tosh….get out in the shed……turn up some swarf….its a great leveler!

Regards R

[JoParticipant @jo]

Posted by Andrew Johnston on 28/01/2014 22:10:47:

Well, this has been a pretty dispiriting thread. It would be interesting to know how many forum members have a degree, and of those how many are engineering degrees. I also wonder how many forum members, if any, have a Ph.D?

Regards,

Andrew

Andrew, I have a PhD in Computer Science, but I never "went" to University, I am an ex-apprentice who did it the hard way: all part-time study.

If you look at the membership at my ME club you will find that there are is remarkable percentage of members with PhDs, we even have a Professor and these members are by far the most productive model makers in the entire club.

Jo

[Brian WoodParticipant @brianwood45127]

Andrew,

Like my father, my qualifications amount to a DDLM ( Dan Dan the Lavatory Man ), actually an ONC in Physics, but what little I have has seen me well throughout my whole working life.

The quality of your work sees them coming back for more, not paper qualifications and even worse the modern NVQs

I have met well educated people who have to call in an electrician to reset a circuit breaker.

Brian

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

I have read all of the posts, I feel that in every case that Motivation is the driving force that gets people up and running to do things. The achievement of qualifications only means you have survived the input side and have strived to pass an exam that qualifies you for that award.

The mental approach means that you have the capacity to see the problem and come to a solution and the answer is….. Whereas an Artisan has a rule of thumb approach where he too can see the problem and come to a good answer but practically. Applied manual and practical finesse ensures the product achieves visual and technical approval. The old saying if it looks right it is right often applies. Nothing will surpass knowledge of metals and techniques and application of tools etc. It is seen often enough on the site that questions are asked about problems of all kinds and within a few minutes the answer is forthcoming, mainly from commonsense and experienced people who are on top of their trade or job.

All the tools in the world will not make you a better engineer nor make better jobs or models. Job satisfaction creates an urge to better ones self and do better. Learn by mistakes and achieve a higher standard in all things.

Eletism is a fact and one comes across this all the time, the boaster and the loud mouth and the person who wants to be at the front but in reality has no backing of any sort. Lifes path can be a mystery but some people can engineer a lifetime and then retire gracefully to achieve another useful period. Essentually I feel that results are the answer not qualifications. Take the man who can write progs. for making things on CNC but has no knowledge of metals or techniques against the man who knows his metals and can make from scratch exactly what he sees in his minds eye.

Clive

[OuBallieParticipant @ouballie]

Electrical, 380v – 11Kv & 132Kv

One of my customers was a Professor of Law at Wits, who took to Model Engineering like a duck to water.

The finish on his miniature steam engines was amazing.

His first engine was a ST V10, and he enquired how to machine the cylinder barrel. Soon put him right that it was covered with lagging, much to his relief.

Geoff – Out of the rat race thank goodness.

[Gordon WParticipant @gordonw]

I've just found my certificate "of compatancy" in computing !! Fat lot of good that's done. However I do have a SVQ in insecticide spraying, this usually lets me buy the trade chemicals, much cheaper than garden center.

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Some disciplines don't include the practical side

After 4 years in the Merchant Navy/College I was "fully qualified" as a Navigator but it still took a couple of years of actually doing it to "get good"

After 3 years at college I was "fully qualified academically" as an accountant but it took another 3 years at a firm to get to a decent level of practical ability

Doctors are the same, it takes years before they let them anywhere near a real live human

[Thomas GudeParticipant @thomasgude37285]

This is an interesting thread, I am enjoying reading peoples stories / opinions on the topic as it evolves. Especially as a 27 yo Design Engineer and a product of Labour's "University Rush" and being the oldest employee in my company with a degree. So I thought I'd add my (limited) experience.

I studied Design Technology for Music (basically watered down engineering with some acoustics & music technology thrown on the side) at the ex-polly Staffordshire, I was 50% of the students on the course and they cancelled it after my second year! In retrospect there were a lot of things I think they could have done better but I am glad I went and still learnt lots that allowed me to secure a successful job. The manual metal shop was jealously protected by the technician and we were never even introduced to what the machines were. We were introduced and lightly trained in the world of CNC however but looking back I would now give my left foot to get my hands on those machines (I need my right arm for turning the dials) …the benefit of hindsight eh?

My job title is ‘Design Engineer’ but am I an engineer? I cannot do differential or integral equations and if it came to it I would not class myself as a "qualified engineer". As far as my manual skills go I am extremely good at drilling holes in the wrong place (a handicap I hope to remedy with progressing in this hobby). I work at a very good PA manufacturer and to do my job I need to know about acoustics, electronics, statics; manufacturing in wood, paper, plastic, metal and composites but I would not claim to be extremely knowledgeable or skilled in any of these. I also need to carry out critical listening tests to determine the quality of a device. My skills mainly lie in CAD, drafting and product development and I know enough for other people to achieve what I require when I send them a drawing. I suppose traditionally I would have been called a draughtsman. Growing up in rural Devon with a family who worked for the NHS not much of my life revolved around the mechanical but I have progressed non-the-less. So I am I the clown in the middle for engineers and skilled machinists to both look down on? I hope not.

Regarding snobbery I have not come across a lot in terms of the manually skilled vs the highly educated in either direction and most treat each other by their results rather than their background. A snobbery I have encountered however is age snobbery, mostly the experienced looking down at the young. This comes from the inevitable circumstance that the young are inexperienced. I do find this curious as we only have what we are taught, shown and treated to go on. I often read tales on here of a former workshop supervisor teaching someone “everything they know”. I have not come across much of this in my generation; maybe it’s something you don’t realise until later, I don’t know. Having said that everyone here has been overwhelmingly helpful to advise on any topic I care to ask and I am grateful for it.

As far as the misuse of the label Engineer goes, my industry is full of “Sound Engineers” and most are just glorified DJs, one goes as far to call himself a “Sonic Architect” using a label normally requiring 7 years of study and work to achieve! They are a mile apart from an Acoustic Engineer (snob much?). My job title is Design Engineer and I am proud of that title, so are all the “unqualified” engineers around me.

To sum up the phrase “Horses For Courses” comes to mind and in my experience you cannot run a successful project if everyone was equally skilled and qualified – How bloody boring would that be!

Blimey, seems like I've gone on a bit of a rant! I will go sit in the corner with my small violin and a shield!

Thomas

Edited By Thomas Gude on 30/01/2014 00:07:05

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

I have three City and Guilds, I can sort the paperwork out and scan it.

Ice cube rolling.

Glue sniffing and

Grievous Bodily Harm

Not mock ups but genuine C&G's by curtsey of the firm that does / did ? the official printing. All the guys there had them and there were some brilliant ones on the wall.

[GaryMParticipant @garym]

I left school with O levels in Art and Maths, amongst others. I thought I'd end up painting computers.

Gary

[Rufus RoughcutParticipant @rufusroughcut]

An Engineer, How we philosophise, and to what end, self elevation, most (Fixers will re-engineer stuff to suit it's total net worth to them and in some cases improve the original) these may have no formal or practical back ground but are prepared to have go, true engineers even if this is only done once.

I've known engineers who could scar you with their back of a fag packet calculation whilst 1 mile underground at coal face be accurate to 0.001 of an inch, who quit frankly couldn't chop sticks for a fire straight never mind hang a door straight or neatly fit it's engineered Iron mongery.

Most engineers i believe love the challange of makeing something from something else, like a bit of metal, wood plastic, glass, paper into a component of a whole item or even the whole thing from scratch, the novice who copies parts that are made by a supa dupa engineering sage and he/ she who embarks on the quest of I'm gunna do that but not in imperial sizes.

There are good engineers, that is all those upto (Archimedes, Brunell etc who were great engineers and pioneers ( once they destroyed a couple of initial ideas)) who get by with a little help from our friends and there are bad engineers who have no or poor support in there attempts to take the challenge.

Baz

[Peter G. ShawParticipant @peterg-shaw75338]

I left school with 3 'O' levels – Maths, Physics & Geography. Joined the GPO as a trainee telecom technician and over the next 15 years gained a C&G Full Technological Certificate in Electronics (ha-ha!) and Telephony. At the same time I reached the top of the pay scale as a top level technician. Nothing unusual in that, but after a further 10 years was promoted to 1st line manager and told that as far as BT, as it now was, was concerned, I was now an 'engineer'. True enough, I did have certain responsibilities in planning exchange changes and was allowed to instigate some changes up to a certain financial level without further authority.

I didn't progress any further, and to be perfectly blunt, plenty of my technician colleagues were just as able to do the work as I was, indeed could probably do it better. So was I an 'engineer'? I actually don't think so, preferring the designation 'techician-engineer' because really that's what I was.

As other people have said, I have come across some people, techicians plus 1st and 2nd level managers, whose standard of practical work was best described as 'messy', but on the other hand, there were some brilliant technicians who never got anywhere near a promotion board. Too good to promote perhaps?

As far as model engineering goes, I am just an interested amateur who is interested in learning about, and how to do, and having a go at, the various engineering processes. Sometimes successfully, sometimes not successfully.

So, am I an engineer? I'll leave that to others to decide.

Regards,

Peter G. Shaw

[colin hawesParticipant @colinhawes85982]

One engineering company I worked for took the view that they could not afford to lose talented hands-on practical engineers to any departmental promotions because all they wanted was a manager to run the department ,not necessarily a skilled engineer. Colin

Edited By colin hawes on 01/02/2014 17:36:53

[martin perman 1Participant @martinperman1]

I was fortunate as a young lad as my Father trained as an Electrical Draughsman then he went into Mechanical engineering Draughsman, his Father was a well known Model Engineer and by the time I was five I not only new what a lathe was but Grandad had taught my brother and myself how to use one, the only thing we couldnt do was treddle the lathe as we were not big enough, at school we had a fully kitted metal working shop and Tech drawing department which we both enjoyed and did well in especially in CSE and GCSE, when the oppertunity for both of us to take apprenticeships in engineering we jumped at it, I went first as the eldest and a year later my brother joined, the company was Lucas CAV, the Sudbury Suffolk plant where we worked manufactured diesel filters and fuel injectors of all shapes and sizes, we both joined as Technician apprentices and had four years each in the Training Dept and I did five years at Technical College, where I finished with a Full Technical Certificate in Mechanical Engineering, and my brother did four, my fifth year was a course in Business management, the apprenticeship took us through every department in the company and in the third year we had to make a guided decision as to where we would like to work I went into the Works Engineering Dept as an apprentice Machine Tool Fitter and my Brother went into Production Engineering in the next sixteen years I worked my way up the ladder repairing machine tools of all description, I was also sent on electrical and electronic courses which my collegues could not understand, I then put the tools down and took the job of a Reliability Engineer which involed determining how to increase the the life of the machines between overhauls by looking at trends of failure of components etc I then got asked if I'd be interested in becoming a Works Engineering Foreman which I took on until the company announced redundancy on the Dept, I took voluntarily redundancy and joined a Machine Agency and I've been in Service Engineering ever since working with Automation, Industrial Robots mostly in Car Plants, and now I work with Industrial Washing machines, form small dish washer sized machines to machines big enough to put my Vauxhall Vivaro Van inside. I've worked with Hydraulics, Pneumatics, Electrical/Electronic, pumps all types of machine tools and equipment and I think I can call myself a practical Engineer.

Martin P

[NJHParticipant @njh]

Peter – you qualify!

My dictionary says:-

ENGINEER – One who designs or makes, or puts to practical use, engines or machinery of any type including electrical.

I had a similar background to yours – though not in telephony but line transmission. I too faced those rigours at tech college with a speciality of Advanced Microwave Principles (which I passed with a distinction ). I can honestly say that I have never used that knowledge and felt, at the time, that I didn’t understand it too well. I have kept my old note books and, any time that I’m feeling a bit smart I look through them, – I don’t understand a bloomin’ word!

Having accepted the firms offer to leave early I was lucky to find a job as a technician in a mechanical workshop doing what has been my lifelong hobby of “making stuff”

I don’t understand the rather derogatory attitude of some here to academic qualifications. Knowledge is always valuable and a good grasp of theory is important – but so too is its application. There is an old adage that states that all that the qualification does is to get you onto the interview – how the knowledge is applied determines the success that you will make of the job.

In my “retirement” job I came into contact with some of the top academics in the world in their field. They would bring me ideas for a bit apparatus they wanted me to make or modify. Some were pretty knowledgeable about the way to go about it but some didn’t have a clue. Why should they? – after all I can eat a steak but I’m not too good at brain surgery! (Those who were brilliant academically AND good practically were a real pleasure to know.)

Regards

Norman

Edited By NJH on 01/02/2014 21:14:13

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Posted by colin hawes on 01/02/2014 17:34:35:

One engineering company I worked for took the view that they could not afford to lose talented hands-on practical engineers to any departmental promotions because all they wanted was a manager to run the department ,not necessarily a skilled engineer. Colin

Edited By colin hawes on 01/02/2014 17:36:53

I fully endorse this, all too often I have seen people get made up because they are next in line and not necessarily the best people for the job.

I actually had 3 years as a manager whist still doing a hands on development design job. Even though I say it myself I was good at the hands on design but absolutely crap at managing.

I ignored paperwork, refused to attend meetings saying I had to work, once fell asleep in a board meeting and fell off the chair, swore at the engineering manager and called him an ass hole to his face in a meeting [ think that was a bad career move and I got made redundant just after that ! ]

Long short is they should have left me where I was and promoted somebody else into the managers job.

Wouldn't have bothered me because i wouldn't have taken any notice anyway. problem is before that job I was self employed for 19 years, once someone has been self employed for about 3 – 4 years they are unemployable.

Didn't help that we were bought out by the yanks and had endless people coming over on all expenses paid holidays to 'organise ' us and give up pep talks. Things like gathering you round and saying what wanted doing then saying "Who's going to own this project " in the best west Texan voice they had and if you didn't jump up shouting you weren't a team player.

This came to a head when one day they said we were having a "team meeting" at a local hotel in two nights time.

I asked if we were getting paid? answer was no it was team building. So I told them sod it build it without me, no one says what I do in my time, refused to go and didn't go. That did not go down well.

[Peter G. ShawParticipant @peterg-shaw75338]

Norman,

Thanks for that.

I agree that both academic and practical knowledge are important, but like you I found the academic stuff rather dry and boring. Looking back, I did cover probably all the stuff I used later, but really, the academic only came into use after I had been on an electronic exchange training course, and then followed it up by some self learning from a pair of textbooks which in turn lead to practical experience.

I also freely admit that some of the examinations were only passed because I was, or had been, working on the equipment that the question covered and thus I had the practical knowledge.

John,

There is a phrase for folk like you, something like self-confident or self-assured.

It's interesting that towards the end of my career, I was told my my line manager that BT no longer wanted engineering managers: they wanted "general purpose" managers who could be moved into any department anywhere. Not sure that I agree with that then, but I rather suspect that today that is probably correct.

I've had spells of working on my own, and as part of a team, both as a member and as a leader. Unfortunately, I did gain a reputation of failing to engage brain before opening mouth even though I was always thought of being knowledgable. Not sure if that was strictly correct as a lot of the problems were concerned with people who either didn't know what they were talking about, or were trying to pull a fast one. Interestingly, the people I got on best with were people who did know what I was capable of, and who in turn were very capable technicians themselves.

I do remember going on one w/e team meeting where each person was required to make a presentation after a brain-storming event. I lost track of the brain-storming and then bluntly said something about that's not how I do things. Didn't go down well, got marked as unfit for promotion, but wasn't bothered anyway as to be honest, I was earning so much money, we couldn't spend it fast enough (I was actually easily saving close on 25% of my take-home pay) so couldn't see any need for further promotion. I took early retirement anyway. None of us ever got paid for these w/e jaunts – as salaried employees it was expected of us, although the food and hotel accommodation was always paid for us.

Despite all that, and the inevitable ups and downs though, overall I did have a good and interesting career which has enabled me to have a good retirement and to indulge myself occasionally.

Regards,

Peter G. Shaw

[MikeParticipant @mike89748]

I left school in 1958, got a job on a newspaper, and eventually became an editor. I never had any formal qualification as a journalist, so the "diploma" I hung on my office wall was the qualification I gained as a pest controller – in other words a rat catcher. The circumstances are far too complicated to list here, but the certificate caused some raised eyebrows, and gave me a few good laughs, too.

[Anonymous]

I am surprised that so few people on the forum claim to have a degree, may be they're just keeping quiet. It may also be that the forum membership, being towards the more mature, had less chance of going to university in the 50s/60s/70s? Still, at least it is nice to know I'm not the only one on the forum with a Ph.D.

I'm afraid that an anti-intellectual bias is part of the British disease, unlike some other countries where education is seen as a way out of poverty, and to be revered.

There have been a few stories in the thread about new graduates. Here's one about a technician, the archetypal man on the bench. One of the small companies I work for employed a part time technician to do basic bench work and build test rigs so as to free me up for design work. On day one, while putting up racking to hold reels of electrical wire, the technician announced in a loud voice that a Ph.D. couldn't do what he was doing. In one sense, he was correct, if I'd done it the racking wouldn't have been wonky, and it wouldn't have fallen off the wall, as it did at a later date. He also messed up building a test jig, costing a lot more than if I'd done it in the first place. So no more technician.

Regards,

Andrew

Edited By Andrew Johnston on 02/02/2014 20:52:40

[martin perman 1Participant @martinperman1]

In the early seventies I was fortunate to go into the sixth form at comprehensive school, at the end of that year we were all brought together and it was announced that out of our year of twenty one of us was going to university and that it was a honour for the school and we were all pleased for the lad, today anybody can go to university and obtain degree's in the most ludicrous of subjects and then think the world owes them a living, with the exception of a few I find it is just another excuse to waste a few more years and not to go out into the real world and earn a living.

Going to university does not have the honour that was attached to it in my youth and its not helped by businesses wanting a broom pusher to have a degree for a job.

Martin P

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi Andrew, I went to a Secondry Modern in the 60's, there was no encouragement to even consider thinking about going to University let along thinking about the likes of a degree or Ph.D's. If I'd have managed to have gotten to Grammer school, I might have stood a chance, but not really being much of an academic I think I would have struggled at a Grammer school let alone Uni'. I've been able to use tools since as far back as I can remember when I understood what screwdriver and drills etc. could do and used to help my farther in my own little way, beginning with putting rawl plugs into the holes in the wall for him that he drilled using a hand operated breast drill. Practical hands on useage of all manner of hand tools and general workshop machinery has never phased me and in my previous employment I found pulling machines apart, fixing them and putting them back into production really easy.

When any new machines had to be maintain for the first time, there would be a few of the other fitters moaning about not been given any trianing or guidence on how to do them. I just used to say to them "well start taking some of the bolts out and see what you find" never had a problem practising what I preached

Regards Nick.

[FMESParticipant @fmes]

Posted by Andrew Johnston on 02/02/2014 20:51:29:

I am surprised that so few people on the forum claim to have a degree,

Maybe because a foundation degree qualification today is somewhat lesser than an ONC earned in the seventies.

In the 1970's an ONC in Aeronautical Engineering comprised of a four year apprenticeship and five years at college, the modern equivalent is completed in three years, and is mostly theoretical engineering.

As stated by others before, its skills that are important, and I think that the sign of a good engineer is such as to the affinity to the materials he/she works with rather than a piece of paper that states how good they performed in the classroom.

[MikeParticipant @mike89748]

I am not qualified to pass an opinion on engineering degrees, but on other subjects I see so many "joke" degrees I am not surprised so few people claim to have one. In life I have found people who can demonstrate they can do a job are far preferable as employees to people who have bits of paper that say they can do it. All too many degrees show nothing more than the fact that the holder has a good memory for the profound thoughts of other people, and that they have never had an original thought in their lives. Or am I being grumpy in my old age?

[David Clark 13Participant @davidclark13]

Hi John

Now I know why I am unemployable.

Several years self employed.

regards David

[Author]

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