Old Die Stock

[William ChithamParticipant @williamchitham75949]

[William ChithamParticipant @williamchitham75949]

My brother in law has kindly given me this die set which was part of his father's tool collection. Metric sizes from 3mm to 12mm (including odd ones 7mm & 9mm) marked "RA" but no other identifier, I've never seen one like it before. Is it a common type? Operation seems self explanatory but is there anything to watch ou for?

Thanks, William.

[Clive Brown 1Participant @clivebrown1]

I've seen sets like that dating back to the 1960s, possibly earlier, pre-dating UK metric changer-over. From what I remember, they could be good quality products. Can't help with the RA though.

[Brian HParticipant @brianh50089]

Never seen a metric one but Whit and BSF ones are not rare though usually found without the extra sets of dies.

Brian

[Bo’sunParticipant @bosun58570]

Presumably, round one piece dies are cheaper to make, but I do like the idea of two halves for cleaning.

[Robert ButlerParticipant @robertbutler92161]

I have a Whitworth BSF set in a box which was marked WD although the contents are not so marked. Pretty much rust free. Robert Butler

[William ChithamParticipant @williamchitham75949]

Perhaps this set belonged to the Gunners.

[old martParticipant @oldmart]

I would expect a broad arrow on it if it had ever been in the military.

[Robert ButlerParticipant @robertbutler92161]

The box which was falling to pieces certainly had the broad arrow marking but there is no marking on the two diestock holders or the split dies. The set belonged to my late uncle and as the box was falling apart I re-glued the finger joints on the box frame and replaced the ply wood top and bottom. The interior has cut outs which were salvageable and match the diestocks, (one large and one small) the split dies and the taps. From memory there is one tap missing.

Robert Butler

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

Such die and stock sets go back a very long time. Allegedly the Whitworth and BSP ones I ended up with via complex family inheritance route date back to before WW1. Something I have no way of proving but they are certainly early inter-war period at the latest.

My stocks hold all the dies in a set at once. Just release the clamp screw and ease the desired set apart to use. Nearly impossible to loose a die half as fiddling them out once the screw has been fully undone is tricky with about 10 thou clearance to work with.

Mine also have a 55° Vee roller and plain half "die" section to clean out threads. Not a universal fitting. Allegedly on gas fitters and the like sets.

Big problem with this form of die set is that there is no easy way to set to the correct size. The split sections are narrow enough to easily close up to well below the official core diameter.

I suspect the correct method is to close them up on a rod of core diameter to set the spacing.

Clive

[William ChithamParticipant @williamchitham75949]

Posted by Clive Foster on 06/11/2020 17:13:00:

Big problem with this form of die set is that there is no easy way to set to the correct size. The split sections are narrow enough to easily close up to well below the official core diameter.

I suspect the correct method is to close them up on a rod of core diameter to set the spacing.

Clive

Or maybe on a sample piece of thread? I'll try it out this weekend.

William.

[Robert ButlerParticipant @robertbutler92161]

William, I'm not sure you are correct, assuming you are thread cutting on a rod of the correct diameter surely the crests and troughs of the die limit the depth of cut and presumably it is possible to judge a tight or loose thread with an appropriate female thread (nut).

Robert Butler

[Oily RagParticipant @oilyrag]

These sets were in use from the early 1900's – if it is pre WWII then the metric set will be SI not ISO. As Brian H mentioned I have never seen a Metric set – my father passed his down to me many years ago, from memory that came from the COW (Coventry Ordnance Works, Red Lane) in about 1920. RA could be the makers mark?? Ransome & Allsop anyone?

[SandgrounderParticipant @sandgrounder]

One good thing these can do which the usual die can't is to start off in the middle of a thread, if you have a bolt or stud which has the first threads damaged you can start the die off below the damaged section and work backwards.

John

[BOB BLACKSHAW 1Participant @bobblackshaw1]

I have a workshop book from the early 1900s showing a similar stock and dies.

[egaParticipant @ega]

My 1933 Brown Brothers catalogue shows a British made combined Whit and BSF set of these plus taps at £9 4s 6d.

And in Buck & Hickman's 1964 when the comparable price had risen to £20.

Edited By ega on 07/11/2020 11:20:49

[SamsarandaParticipant @samsaranda]

In respect whether of military provenance then each individual item would have had a broad arrow, after 22 years of military service using tools they all had the broad arrow on, the government were obsessively protective of “Crown Property”.
Dave W

[DalboyParticipant @dalboy]

I have a similar set of split dies but not in metric as can be seen the name Warrior. The holder as can be seen is of a round design rather than the square one you have.

[Terry BParticipant @terryb]

This set was given to me by a friend before he went abroad about 15 years ago. As you cab see by the label it was made by a firm called Stronghold. The smaller print at the bottom states that it was made by "The British Tap and Die Company, England"

Has anybody any idea of it's age?

[egaParticipant @ega]

Terry B:

I assume that the blue fitting is used in conjunction with a carpenter's brace but how, exactly?

Not clear to me how the split dies are adjusted in the circular holder?

[Brian HParticipant @brianh50089]

I bought this set some years ago. I don't really have a use for it but found it unusual.

It is of US manufacture and operates in a similar manner to a Coventry die head.

The lever on top moves the four dies in and out to adjust the cut and there is a lever and graduated plate on the side so that fine adjustments can be made.

The taps are not original, I have filled the spaces with American made ones where possible.

Despite its American origin it is Whitworth.

Brian

[GeorgineerParticipant @georgineer]

Here are some relevant pages from S. Tyzack's catalogue of about 1908.

[Terry BParticipant @terryb]

ega

As you can see from the photo the backplate at the rear of the die holder unscrews and the blue holder screws into the the holder instead of the backplate. The dies are adjusted by two grub screws that you can just see in the picture.

[egaParticipant @ega]

Terry B:

Thank you for the photos and for taking the trouble to explain.

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

Running an E-Bay search a few minutes ago tuned up a Whitworth die set and stock of this style made by F.Armstrong, Bridgeport.

The dies are of similar shape to those in Derek Lanes Warrior branded set but the dies and stock appear to have marks to set correct depth of cut. The stock has lines labeled C and S which align with simple lines on the dies. By eye it appears that setting the dies to the S mark gives a larger core diameter than when set at C.

Presumably S is for first pass, starting cuts and C is for finishing. The set has guides bored to the correct daimetr for each thread.

An obvious answer to the size setting problem. Albeit by modern standard a bit imprecise.

Clive

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