New car – or is it a wheeled computer?

[SamsarandaParticipant @samsaranda]

Have a 16 plate Honda Jazz which has very low mileage, have had it from new, when the manufacturers warranty expired was offered an extended warranty at a reasonable price which I took up. Car went in for an annual service and diagnostics said air con was not working, it turns out it needed a new condenser which was accepted as a warranty item and was rectified, out of curiosity I asked how much it would have cost if it was not covered by the warranty, was told it was in the region of £500. I find it incredible the charges that are now levied by garages, their hourly labour rates are extortionate, having been an engineer all my working life I always serviced and repaired my own vehicles, and friends as well, but age and technology now precludes that. There are devices on the market at very reasonable prices that you can plug into your cars system and it will tell you if the vehicle has any faults and what they are, this could mean you at least can verify if the garages are just ripping you off. Dave W

[SandgrounderParticipant @sandgrounder]

Glad to see the back of old cars, having done jobs on them like replacing a smashed piston and wet liner on a 1950 Vanguard without even jacking it up, barely able to get under it to remove the sump and big end cap, getting covered in oil and freezing cold, years of jobs like this, Mini's with always damp electrics having to take the distributor cap and leads into the house to dry them out in the oven before I could drive to work, now I've not seen a spark plug for 17 years on my last 2 cars, first time starts every morning, never broken down and no rust, cumfy seats, air con and good safety features, that's how I like them.

John

[Kiwi BlokeParticipant @kiwibloke62605]

Dave W. The affordable diagnostic code readers can cope with the 'standard' codes that are common across manufacturers, but each manufacturer appears to use many additional, effectively secret codes, which Murphy dictates are the really worth-knowing ones. It's restrictive practices in operation. It would be interesting to know whether the 'Right to Repair' movement in USA has had any success.

[RMAParticipant @rma]

Posted by Matt Harrington on 26/03/2021 10:06:11:

And, of course, Kiwi Bloke, you try getting a manual for all that gadgetry! Let alone trying to repair it. I do find it peculiar that you can't press a button and switch those 'enhancements' (!) off.

I suppose all of this technology is the precursor to driverless cars – god help us!

Matt

A lot of cars do give you that opportunity to disable them. Some of them come back on by default when you restart, so you have to be aware of that. BMW's were slagged off earlier in this thread, but they have some great technology which is usually later copied by other manufacturers, you can it use or not, that is your choice. Unfortunately as with all cars, you don't get much choice when buying it, the packages are cleverly put together to suit the revenue flow. All that aside there are still some great cars around today designed for a 'driver' who likes to drive. One day, probably sooner than we realise, that will no longer be an option. Rent an electric scooter maybe?

Someone mentioned speed limiters earlier and I agree at normal speeds could be dangerous, I believe it can be overridden though at the moment. I have a car which limits it to 155mph, needless to say I haven't tried it!

[Brian BParticipant @brianb]

What has this topic to do with model engineering!

Brian Bristoll.

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

My BMW snitches to the dealer when a service is due, it monitors various service items and when one becomes due it displays every time you use the vehicle. It has decided the brake fluid is due another change and dobbed me in with the dealer, it can wait until the next service in a few months time, meanwhile it continues to remind me. The MOT reminder is useful as I have on occasion forgotten.

Mike

[Mike HurleyParticipant @mikehurley60381]

Posted by john halfpenny on 26/03/2021 10:08:09:

I've got news for you Mike Hurley. Haynes manuals are no longer published. Me, I'm sticking with my Land Rover D3 and Reliant Scimitar

John – Haynes publishing still seem to be around and you can still get manuals for most cars via their website. I suppose they don't publish manuals on the newer breeds of vehicle for reasons already mentioned.

They also did a range of humourus volumes in the same vein as their vehicle books – I was given one titled something like 'a guide to pensioners' when I retired from work, provided a lot of laughs. A couple of years on I now realise how pertinant a lot of the faults and worn out parts descriptions were true!

ps Always lusted after a Scimitar, never got my hands on one though sadly.

[john halfpennyParticipant @johnhalfpenny52803]

I should have said 'no longer printed' Mike – having said that, the newer ones are not great imho.

[Mike HurleyParticipant @mikehurley60381]

Posted by Brian B on 26/03/2021 10:26:04:

What has this topic to do with model engineering!

Brian Bristoll.

Nothing really, but like other similar threads if it is under the 'Tea Room' topic category then it is, by definition just general chat about pretty well anything. At the moment, being quite serious, with lockdown and people not able to go to ME clubs or the pub etc it's sometimes the only way to get things off your chest, and I for one find it entertaining and informative. Hopefully if and when things get back to normal, we'll be able to find alternative avenues for our rants and grumbles!

regards

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

Posted by Brian B on 26/03/2021 10:26:04:

What has this topic to do with model engineering!

Brian Bristoll.

It's in the tea room Brian

Beaten to it Curses

Edited By Dave Halford on 26/03/2021 11:06:39

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

Wan't there an article on the BBC that from Autumn UK they plan to increase the ethanol percentage in petrol such that pre-2000 petrol cars will no longer run? Aspen in cans would be an expensive alternative for my '94 reg car.

[roy entwistleParticipant @royentwistle24699]

I don't like the stop start facility on my 17plate Corsa. It keeps telling me to check my tyres as well, but not always the same one.

Ha well at 87 I don't think I'll be getting another.

Roy

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

Posted by pgk pgk on 26/03/2021 10:57:42:

Wan't there an article on the BBC that from Autumn UK they plan to increase the ethanol percentage in petrol such that pre-2000 petrol cars will no longer run? Aspen in cans would be an expensive alternative for my '94 reg car.

Wasn't that something to do with the extra water that the increased ethanol invites into the tank being enough to cause rust, might be OK with a plastic tank.

Anyone remember Cleveland Discol fuel? No idea what the % was in that.

[john halfpennyParticipant @johnhalfpenny52803]

Pre-2000 cars will run ok, but may benefit from adjustments to ignition timing and replacement of some rubber components.

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

Apart from all the unwanted gizmos, there are few if any good visual designs, just ugly SUVs with pig snouts in place of the grill.

In the old days garages provided (or at least their mechanics) the tools of the trade. They did not charge you for use of the spanners and when necessary voltmeters etc. Why should the Diagnostic Test be charged for? It is supposed to tell them what their job involves, it should be part of the Overheads of the business to cover, as said by others, the hourly rates are obscene.

Edited By KWIL on 26/03/2021 11:29:16

[Phil MeakenParticipant @philmeaken46472]

I sorted this out years ago by never getting a newish car. I have a Citroen ZX diesel from the 1990's, my wife has a Dyane made in 1981. These will last as long as we do, they are easy to service, don't depreciate in value and new spares will always be around.
We've had a Dyane from the 1970's and have travelled all around Europe with complete reliability and comfort, packed full of camping gear!

New cars are scrap after about twenty years and cannot be repaired properly.

[RMAParticipant @rma]

Posted by john halfpenny on 26/03/2021 11:20:43:

Pre-2000 cars will run ok, but may benefit from adjustments to ignition timing and replacement of some rubber components.

Yes, high ethanol content will attract water but it can wreck a lot of components in an older car, which on a classic can cost a fortune to replace. 10% ethanol will become the norm soon (EU pressure I think) but we are assured that ethanol free fuel will still be provided and fuel suppliers have said they will provide a certain amount of pumps around the country (UK). I do use it in one of my cars and ignore the high cost as the miles per year are very low.

Typically in this country confusion reigns! All pumps have to display at least 5% ethanol even if the fuel coming out of the spout is ethanol free. If, like me you need to use it, get in touch with the supplier for the location of the pumps because from experience, staff at the filling stations haven't got a clue!

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Posted by Kiwi Bloke on 26/03/2021 09:55:13:

Since we all know that we are better-than-average drivers, who have the market researchers found who appear to want this useless-and-incompetent-driver-support technology?

The 50% of the population that are below average?

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Posted by RMA on 26/03/2021 11:53:06:

Posted by john halfpenny on 26/03/2021 11:20:43:

Pre-2000 cars will run ok, but may benefit from adjustments to ignition timing and replacement of some rubber components.

Yes, high ethanol content will attract water but it can wreck a lot of components in an older car, which on a classic can cost a fortune to replace. 10% ethanol will become the norm soon (EU pressure I think) but we are assured that ethanol free fuel will still be provided and fuel suppliers have said they will provide a certain amount of pumps around the country (UK). I do use it in one of my cars and ignore the high cost as the miles per year are very low.

Typically in this country confusion reigns! All pumps have to display at least 5% ethanol even if the fuel coming out of the spout is ethanol free. If, like me you need to use it, get in touch with the supplier for the location of the pumps because from experience, staff at the filling stations haven't got a clue!

It's easy to check the amount of alcohol in petrol, all you need is a measuring cylinder. Put some petrol in an note the volume. Add at least 1/3 more water, shake well and let it settle. If there is alcohol in the fuel the fuel volume will go down as the alcohol dissolves in the water (water volume will increase). The % volume reduction equals the alcohol content.
High alcohol also makes vapour lock more likely. This can affect early fuel injected cars causing poor starting after a hot soak.

Robert G8RPI.

[Tony Pratt 1Participant @tonypratt1]

Posted by roy entwistle on 26/03/2021 11:10:07:

I don't like the stop start facility on my 17plate Corsa. It keeps telling me to check my tyres as well, but not always the same one.

Ha well at 87 I don't think I'll be getting another.

Roy

My stop start facility doesn't work either but my wife insists it is useful [I don't] also the heated front screen is duff, the main dealer had it 5 days they both worked for a week but now both are on the blink again, sorry to swear but WTF is going on?? Still under warranty & now my local dealer suggest going somewhere else!!!!

Tony

[RMAParticipant @rma]

Posted by Robert Atkinson 2 on 26/03/2021 12:51:06:

Posted by RMA on 26/03/2021 11:53:06:

Posted by john halfpenny on 26/03/2021 11:20:43:

Pre-2000 cars will run ok, but may benefit from adjustments to ignition timing and replacement of some rubber components.

Yes, high ethanol content will attract water but it can wreck a lot of components in an older car, which on a classic can cost a fortune to replace. 10% ethanol will become the norm soon (EU pressure I think) but we are assured that ethanol free fuel will still be provided and fuel suppliers have said they will provide a certain amount of pumps around the country (UK). I do use it in one of my cars and ignore the high cost as the miles per year are very low.

Typically in this country confusion reigns! All pumps have to display at least 5% ethanol even if the fuel coming out of the spout is ethanol free. If, like me you need to use it, get in touch with the supplier for the location of the pumps because from experience, staff at the filling stations haven't got a clue!

It's easy to check the amount of alcohol in petrol, all you need is a measuring cylinder. Put some petrol in an note the volume. Add at least 1/3 more water, shake well and let it settle. If there is alcohol in the fuel the fuel volume will go down as the alcohol dissolves in the water (water volume will increase). The % volume reduction equals the alcohol content.
High alcohol also makes vapour lock more likely. This can affect early fuel injected cars causing poor starting after a hot soak.

Robert G8RPI.

Interesting, but I don't think the forecourt attendant would think much of that! Too late when you've already filled up. Clear messaging and labeling should be the answer.

[Ex contributorParticipant @mgnbuk]

Another who struggles with some of the dubious "features" added to modern cars here.

My Hyundai i30 has the abominable "auto stop" feature that you have to remember to turn off after every start, or it will stop the engine at the most inopportune moments – positively dangerous at junctions, as it takes what seems like an age to start the engine, deceide which gear it wants to engage (DCT auto) and finally decides to move. Otherwise it has been OK – reasonable mid-50s mpg enocomy, annual (20K miles) servicing, 5 years warranty (not needed anything yet). I tend to go for "one up from basic" spec. to get aircon, central locking & electric windows but stay with reasonably sized higher profile tyres for a more comfortable ride – really don't see the point of 18" diameter ultra low profile tyres on a family car – and fewer "features".

Peter has been luckier than I was with a Toyota Avensis – mine started eating wheel bearings at around 80K & the CVT gearbox developed a whine (no gearbox spares available – £4.5K for a new gearbox, sir ) the main dealer was exasperatingly difficult to deal with to get them sorted under Toyota's almost impossible to access "warranty" & it went rapidly under something of a cloud. The Kia Carens that replaced it was a far more reliable car.

You can't just blame the dealers for diagnostics issues – cars with problems now have to be hooked up online for the manufacturer technicians to interrogate them remotely. I had this with a Ford Transit based motorhome that went into limp mode on the way home from picking it up. The dealer could do nothing without the manufacturer technician's say so after checking the van remotely. Long story short it required 4 new injectors with 32 miles on the clock ! 6 weeks delay to get the "back order" parts to fix it – I shifted that after 6 months (awful vehicle in many respects – very much not one of my better choices ! ) & I later found out that the second owner had to have 4 new injectors fitted again the next year. A colleague at work with a BMW 3 series plug-in hybrid had the on-board battery charger fail – it couldn't be changed by the dealer until it had been checked online by a technician in Munich. He was glad it was still under warranty, as the charger apparently cost £3K.

In many ways life was simpler with points ignition, screw adjustable tappets and carburretors – but then again with my last few cars (mainly Hyundai or Kia) I have done no more than put fuel in for a year / 20,000 miles between services – not even needed an oil top-up.

Nigel B.

ps. Re : 10% ethanol – the reports in various car magazines suggest that there will not be any totally ethanol free fuel available after the change (by September). Some stations that sell more than a certain quantity of fuel will have the "Premium" grade available that will be 5% as at present. I.e. a lower ethanol content, but no longer ethanol free. A pointless sop to tree-huggers IMO that will do nothing for the environment.

Edited By mgnbuk on 26/03/2021 13:30:10

[RMAParticipant @rma]

As I said before it's all very confusing. My car club has lobbied MP's, many of whom run classic cars, and they are assured the fuel will be available…..but where and what cost is never mentioned.

I run my old sports car on Esso Supreme and this is a quote from Esso

“Although our pumps have E5 labels on them, our Synergy Supreme⁺ 99 is actually ethanol free (except, due to technical supply reasons, in Devon, Cornwall, the Teesside area, Scotland and NW England)."

This is fine unless you want to do much touring!

Getting back to the OP's rant. It seems we're stuck with what the manufacturers want us to have. Some technology emerges as a result of fulfilling a need, some emerges first and a use for it found afterwards. I have a fairly recent BMW with all the options and I find many of them useful, those that I don't, I simply don't use. My son has a new BMW M350 X-drive with all the bits and pieces, a cockpit that puts an airliner to shame. Again, he doesn't use all of them and I doubt he knows all of them anyway, but it's a great piece of engineering.

The problem I have with it is the voice recognition. If you happen to say BMW in any sentence this well mannered lady asks if she can help me….to date she hasn't met any of my requests!!

It isn't just cars though, why does everything have to be described as 'digital' these days….can someone explain what a digital toaster is?

[Jeff DaymanParticipant @jeffdayman43397]

Or a digital fridge….

it would be fun to make a warranty call on a digital toaster and say "My digital toaster is not working, it never imprints the correct time on the toast. (Pause a few seconds for it to sink in) It's five minutes fast, or ten minutes slow……."

Too much time on my hands I guess….

[JourneymanParticipant @journeyman]

A digital toaster simply makes toast either uncooked or charcoal ie. 0 or 1

John

[Author]

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