Kelsey Media buys Mortons titles

[Andrew Tinsley]

On Andrew Tinsley Said:

My last post disappeared into the ether, so I will repeat.

If no forum, then no subscription to the magazine. It is as simple as that. I am sure that others may make the same decision.

Andrew.

I’m still seeing the earlier post Andrew and I guess you’re not seeing my reply to it either:  disappearing and reappearing posts are a forum bug.

Anyway, I asked you to explain why you think “It is as simple as that.”  Is it an emotional reaction or is there a rationale?  Emotional reasons are fine by me, that’s your privilege, but sharing logical reasons might help the magazine improve.

In my experience nothing in life is simple!  Happy indeed are the innocents who go from cradle to grave without discovering that sad fact.

Dave

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I expect Andrew’s reason is similar to what Mark and myself have said. We get more from the forum than we do from the mag and just keep up the subscription as a way of supporting the forum. So if the forum were to go there would be little in the mag to make it worth subscribing to.

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

I expect Andrew’s reason is similar to what Mark and myself have said. We get more from the forum than we do from the mag and just keep up the subscription as a way of supporting the forum. So if the forum were to go there would be little in the mag to make it worth subscribing to.

I am beginning to get the impression that this  is a commonly held view on this site in which case there is a very high likelihood that both the magazine and forum are living on borrowed time. Kelsey are buying a magazine, not a forum. If they cannot tap in to the existing forum at minimal cost, which seems unlikely, then they will not want to spend thousands on developing a new one. They are buying a lot of titles from Mortons so dropping one that appears to be uneconomic is probably a no brainer. The likelihood is that they will see how subscriptions and sales hold up without the forum and then act accordingly. So both the magazine and forum at are high risk of closing.

Model Boats seems to be different in that the forum is only a small appendage to the magazine and if it were to be closed would be unlikely to affect sales to any great extent.

Colin

 

 

[JasonB]

On JasonB Said:

I expect Andrew’s reason is similar to what Mark and myself have said. We get more from the forum than we do from the mag and just keep up the subscription as a way of supporting the forum. So if the forum were to go there would be little in the mag to make it worth subscribing to.

Yes, but what’s missing from the mag?  Is it that your skills have long passed the point where the magazine offers nothing new?  My workshop skills are patchy, so I still find value in the mag, admittedly harder to find than when I was an apple-cheeked boy.  True in the last 5 years I get more from the forum than MEW, and always more from MEW than ME.  Perhaps I’ve moved on.

EIM always left me cold, not sure why.

The forum provides variety, even the Tea Room amuses and informs.   We’re open-minded about what “Model Engineering” is, which I like.  Anything from Arduino to Zyto keeps me happy.

Dave

 

 

[Andrew TinsleyParticipant @andrewtinsley63637]

Jason,

You have it in one!

Andrew.

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

Yes indeed but also a commercial recipe for abolishing both! Don’t be surprised at the possible outcome.

Colin

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

One would hope, and expect, that with an announcement like this:

https://www.kelsey.co.uk/news/kelsey-media-acquires-mortons-media/

Kelsey has already done its ‘due diligence’ exercise and made a reasoned decision.

… This forum will either survive, or will be collateral damage.

The die must surely have already been cast.

MichaelG.

.

Quote:

… Philip Sharpe, Non-Executive Director and Shareholder of Mortons added he was “Pleased that the merged operations would be maintaining a significant presence at the Morton Way premises in Horncastle in conjunction with Kelsey’s offices in Yalding, Kent”.

The purchase is anticipated to complete by the 25th March …

[SillyOldDuffer]

On SillyOldDuffer Said:

Yes, but what’s missing from the mag

 

Well it will differ for each person and I have already covered it in the threads about the combined mag but lets take the new ME&W as an example. For someone like me who’s main intersts are not Loco related but more towards Stationary steam, IC and Hot Air then we are only getting  a few pages that could be of interest.

Of those pages left the long runing Stationary steam engine has just run its time and would make an occasional twice a year article.

The Tandem Compound I have already read for free on MEM forum.

I still have a bit of an interest in Traction Engines but again the PU cleats and tyres have been covered in more detail with more bigger and better photos in Paul’s excellent build thread over on Traction Talk.

So Bu88er all original or new of interest to me personally.

[Andrew TinsleyParticipant @andrewtinsley63637]

Colin

If the forum doesn’t survive then I simply don’t care what happens to the magazine. There is very little in the magazine that interests me anyway. So if both cease to exist, then it is no skin off my nose.

Andrew.

[howardbParticipant @howardb]

Although being a recent newbie to this forum, please consider the following:-

The magazine, which I have never subscribed to being an expat, will presumably be marketed to aspiring and existing modellers at various outlets – bookstalls, like WH Smith at railway stations – oops they went bad! – newsagents etc.

That’s called expanding your market.

Aspiring steam, IC, heat engine modellers with little or no previous or  experience of mangling metal to produce the desired model could probably buy the magazine once and then retire in frustration and go somewhere else.

This forum could aspire to be the technical support forum for the magazine and be advertised as such?

Do we want to do that?

 

 

 

[howardb]

On howardb Said:

 

This forum could aspire to be the technical support forum for the magazine and be advertised as such?

Do we want to do that?

I’ve mentioned this several times in the merger threads, The forum can be used to host “excess” material that may otherwise make an article too long in the mag. It can also be used as a place for anyone with quiries on a particular article to ask questions if something is not clear or they may have different equipment to work with than what the author used.

To make it even easier for a timid beginner to ask I start a thread for each of my articles and link to it so that they are less likely to be put off asking what may be to others a simple question. I’ll also put all the additional photos and any other files into the thread.

However this does depend on the individual. It needs authors to be willing to post freely any other material as they won’t get paid for it. It needs them to be able to keep an eye on the relevent thread which can get revisited years later.

I also post a lot more builds on the forums that I write up with the hope that people may aspire to doing the same and quite a few do. Don’t get anything for it and also don’t get any return to drawings or files I may send to interested parties via PM. So again it would depend on people posting freely something that others may aspire to. However this forum is mostly machine and tea room orientated so the budding IC, steam or hot air newbie would probably be better served elsewhere as at the moment there is not a lot of “Model” in ME&W mag or forum once you take out the locos.

[Andrew Tinsley]

On Andrew Tinsley Said:

Colin

If the forum doesn’t survive then I simply don’t care what happens to the magazine. There is very little in the magazine that interests me anyway. So if both cease to exist, then it is no skin off my nose.

Andrew.

Accepted, but what does interest Andrew?  If the answer is “nothing”, then he’s reached the end of the line and should stop. It’s a personal dead-end and that we all eventually run out of puff is no reason to discourage others.  Losing interest is personal and unlikely to be representative of Model Engineers as a group.

My concern is encouraging newcomers and supporting the community.  It isn’t keeping minorities happy.  I think the majority are beginners and mid-range enthusiasts, mostly self-taught, but the nature of the hobby means many start after retiring when they have the time and money to engage.  Maybe a 15 to 20 year window before age undermines our health.   But there is considerable potential in the maker community: youngsters with time, money and aptitude who haven’t committed to family and work yet.

The magazine and forum can’t help individuals who’ve moved on and can’t explain what they want.   Jason’s been clearer: more stationary engines and more ‘model’, all of which I would enjoy.   I want more digital, electronics, CAD, electromechanical, grown-up engineering with maths, theory, 3D-printing, and futures.   Great for me, but I’m wise enough to recognise these subjects don’t appeal to newcomers who’ve just bought a mini-lathe, practical folk, traditionalists, or the high-end types half-way through building exhibition standard locos and rotary aero-engines!  I am a minority!

Neil and Diane have to strike a balance in the magazine, and, even though they have control, that’s far from simple.

The forum isn’t balanced at all: members are free to post on any technical subject.   What we get depends on those who post, and they may not be representative either.

Bottom line is the quality of the forum depends on us, not some mysterious ‘them’.  And so does ME&W; it too depends heavily on articles written by Model Engineers.   If Model Engineering is struggling (it is) we have to fix it, not someone else.

Good forum content attracts new members, who support the advertising by buying stuff,  which pays for the forum.  Whinging and silence have the opposite effect.   I encourage everyone to join in.  Tell us what your doing, ask questions, answer questions, and correct mistakes; whatever it is, please bring it on.   Model Engineering is a broad church.

Dave

 

 

[GreensandsParticipant @greensands]

My interests are model locomotives and workshop articles and I will quite happily read through any build threads such as the current Class 4, 2-6-0 even though I will never be building it. Lathe and milling machine add-ons are always an interesting read. I also have an interest in Arduino projects and I enjoyed making up  the rotary table attachment described in the ME/MEW a few years back. If you really want to know what I found most annoying was the article in MEW 347 tiltled, “First Steps in CNC”. First thoughts were excellent, something new, something to get my teeth into only to discover that the piece of hardware, the Sable 2015 was no longer available!  I found to be most frustrating and simply not good enough. It put me off making any further investigation! Having said all that I do hope that both the new format magazine and the forum survive the change of ownership.

[Andrew TinsleyParticipant @andrewtinsley63637]

Dave,

You seem to make assumptions to support your case, Let me be absolutely clear and maybe somewhat brutal. I find the forum to be far more interesting  and informative than MEW and even more so with the first edition of the combined magazine.

I buy the magazine to support the forum. If the forum goes, then so does my reason for buying the magazine. It has nothing to do with “me having come to the end of the road”. I find such comments condescending.

Andrew.

[Andrew Tinsley]

On Andrew Tinsley Said:

Dave,

You seem to make assumptions to support your case,

Not at all, I’m asking you to explain!

 

Let me be absolutely clear and maybe somewhat brutal. I find the forum to be far more interesting  and informative than MEW and even more so with the first edition of the combined magazine.

Yes, but why?  Is that difficult to answer?  What is it about the forum that appeals more than the magazine?   Is is gut feel, or is there a reason?   Both are allowed!

I buy the magazine to support the forum.

Good!

 

If the forum goes, then so does my reason for buying the magazine.

It has nothing to do with “me having come to the end of the road”. I find such comments condescending.

Not intended to be condescending, it’s just one of several possibilities.  Only a maybe because you haven’t explained.   And everything we do comes to the end of the road.   I grew up and left school. Several jobs ended and I retired.  Now I shall never father another child, climb another mountain, ride a pushbike, tour Europe or go scuba-diving again.  Ill-heath has kept me out of the workshop for nearly a year, and it might be permanent.  We are all subject to time marching on, and surely it’s not condescending to be reminded of that  universal truth?

Andrew.

If you don’t want to explain let’s drop the subject.  I’m not questioning your decision or trying to change your mind.  I’m asking because Model Engineering appears to be in decline and falling interest in the magazine is one of several symptoms.    Knowing why people like your good self are dissatisfied might help Neil and others boost the hobby.    Whilst buying the magazine to support Model Engineering  despite its shortcomings is good, I suggest it’s better to fix the mag, but that’s only possible if customers explain what’s wrong.  Silence leaves everyone guessing, which is bad.

As discussed in related topics, there may not be a simple answer.

Dave

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

As many know, I try to encourage newcomers to the hobby.

WHY?

The hobby is enjoyable, and useful in making / fixing things outside the hobby. Obviously, I am biased!

If the hobby is alive, there will be a demand for machines, materials and hopefully magazines.

Consequently the end user demand will justify advertising

The adverts help to pay for producing the magazines, and hopefully, the Forum. Indeed if the advertising revenue, and subscriptions, don’t cover costs, the end is nigh for the magazine, and Forum associated with it.

So if MEW goes to the wall, the Forum will go with it Not everything in MEW is of avid interest to me, but I subscribe for the stuff that is.

But if my subscription supports the Forum that is good.

The Forum provides me with interest, so is an important part of the hobby.

Without the Forum, life would be less interesting, (Through the Forum I have made contact with many good folk.  I hope that they subscribe to MEW, even if outside UK); without MEW, even less interesting.

I live in hope, but with a certain amount of fear

Howard

 

[bernard towersParticipant @bernardtowers37738]

Howard, what I find interesting is that for the number of new machines being sold(forget sh) it does not seem to increase interest on the forum or in mag subs. Are they all using You Tube?

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

They are probably not into “model engineering” and making use of their machines for other hobbies.

Or if they are into “model engineering” they visit forums which tend to cover “making models” which unfortunately seems to be a minior part of this forum these days. There are certainly forums that better suit the person wanting to make, stationary steam, IC, hot air or Locos and traction engines.

[JasonB]

On JasonB Said:

They are probably not into “model engineering” and making use of their machines for other hobbies.

 

Which has always been a market for small machine tools.

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

Is it me or is the number and diversity of posting on here diminishing too?

[bernard towers]

On bernard towers Said:

… what I find interesting is that for the number of new machines being sold(forget sh) it does not seem to increase interest on the forum or in mag subs. Are they all using You Tube?

People tend to do whatever is easy and obvious!

When I started work I bought a newspaper and magazines every day, and read them whilst travelling to work by bus.  I was one of millions!  Then most people got cars, more TV channels, then the internet, and now smart phones are permanently connected to it by wireless.   Cars also allowed customers to shop in hypermarkets rather than in the High Street, and supermarkets only sell popular magazine, not esoterica like MEW!  As youngsters also get their news online, Newsagents and print media are in sharp decline.  In consequence, newcomers are unlikely to find MEW exists by seeing one on a shelf.  And when they do identify it, there’s a good chance they’ll prefer web information because it’s free and there’s no subscription hassle.  Pity, because print mags like MEW are less likely to misinform than the web which has no fact checking and no editor.   The internet has severe quality issues!

The forum is a history of missed opportunities!  During the upgrade Jason and I suggested many improvements that were ignored, perhaps because Mortons were let down by a third-party, then swamped by bugs and severe performance problems.   Must have cost a fortune, and they probably ran out of money!  Anyway, to my mind, it’s a mistake to have visitors navigate to the forum via a website home-page.  In the past, someone decided the static website was more important than the forum, when it’s the forum that provides the value!  I suspect many newcomers who find the website never get to the forum, because it’s one of many options. I expect most new members only discover the forum when Google finds an answer to a techy question in one of our posts.

Next problem is what newcomers make of “Model Engineering” when they find us.  Judging by post content perhaps a majority of members believe Model Engineering means making models, specifically steam engines, ideally using last century methods and Imperial measure.  Hands-on is preferred to theory, and maths, computers, electronics, and CNC avoided.  This is unlikely to appeal to young “makers” who think in metric, are digitally literate, and not interested in steam or models.   They need machine tools for different reasons.  A pity if a narrow perception puts anyone off joining us, because many Model Engineers don’t do models or steam: they’ve been “makers” for years.  It’s a broad church: I make things to support experimental work, so I’m not a modeller or a maker.   Others do repair work, anything between watches and railway cranes, and horology is popular.   Though despised by some horny handed practical men, armchair engineering is popular too:  this chap didn’t make anything himself, like all top engineers he was a thinker…

Dave

 

[jamesp1Participant @jamesp1]

 Though despised by some horny handed practical men, armchair engineering is popular too:  this chap didn’t make anything himself, like all top engineers he was a thinker…

Dave

 

This chap (Isambard Brunel) was a time-served apprentice clockmaker who went on post-apprenticeship to work hands-on underground as an assistant engineer operating and repairing machinery digging a tunnel under the Thames. It was only after he was almost killed in a cave-in while working hands-on underground that went on to his more well known work of designing and supervising the building of bridges, railroads, shipyards etc. Famous for working 20 hour days, I should think he didn’t have much time for the armchair.

[jamesp1]

On jamesp1 Said:

 Though despised by some horny handed practical men, armchair engineering is popular too:  this chap didn’t make anything himself, like all top engineers he was a thinker…

Dave

 

This chap (Isambard Brunel) was a time-served apprentice clockmaker who went on post-apprenticeship to work hands-on underground as an assistant engineer operating and repairing machinery digging a tunnel under the Thames. It was only after he was almost killed in a cave-in while working hands-on underground that went on to his more well known work of designing and supervising the building of bridges, railroads, shipyards etc. Famous for working 20 hour days, I should think he didn’t have much time for the armchair.

It’s true Brunel started an apprenticeship with Breguet after being rejected by the Ecole Polytechnique for not being French, but was he time-served? As far as I can tell he wasn’t – he didn’t put enough years put in.   He was born in 1806 and returned to England in 1822 aged 16!  Before applying to the Ecole Polytechnique, then the world’s top engineering university, he was educated at a boarding school in England, then the Lycee Henri-Quartri and the University of Caen.  A Lycee is a grammar school and Caen was noted for maths.   Isambard was well-educated.

Anyone know how long he spent with Breguet?  My guess is a few months, and, as Breguet was a mathematician, that may have been why Brunel was there?  Not learning a trade, dunno.

He entered his fathers office in 1822 before going to work in the Thames Tunnel aged 19 in 1825.  As dad was Chief Engineer I think it’s safe to assume Isambard didn’t do much hands-on, and he was appointed Resident Engineer in 1827.  A Resident Engineer is a supervising decision maker, not a navvy!

IKB, like many of his famous contemporaries, was a thinking engineer who spent most of his time planning, designing and organising.  Probably worked in an office with a team of assistants rather than an actual armchair.

Dave

 

 

[Author]

Posts