Jan Ridders Flame Engine

[ROBERT BLACKSHAWParticipant @robertblackshaw40066]

I have made the Jan Ridders flame engine but have been having problems with it. The engine will not run or any attempt to run, I have made the cylinder with good compression, in fact it will blow out a butain gas gun when I was spinning it. The fly wheel was made out aluminum but felt it could be to light so as a test I increased the out side dia with a 6 mm strip of lead to increase the weight. The video on You Tube shows it spinning for some time, mine is not as good, its free running with no tight spots and has bearings on the axels. I have tried all different settings and flame position, any help on this will be appreciated.

[ROBERT BLACKSHAWParticipant @robertblackshaw40066]

[ROBERT BLACKSHAWParticipant @robertblackshaw40066]

Another problem is when I use the clear meths and try and start it up the piston starts to jam up with some sort of residue in the cylinder, is there a difference with clear and coloured meths that can cause a build up of residue

[VicParticipant @vic]

It took quite a long time to get my Jan Ridders vacuum engine to run. Mine is the internal valve model which has since been updated I believe. Mine has cast iron cylinder and pistons, I think the updated one has stainless steel to prevent corrosion. I found pre heating the cylinder with a hot air gun and running it on 99% Ethanol helped. Lubricating the bore with graphite also seemed to improve starting. The next one I make will be the vertical one, perhaps though with an internal valve again.

[J HancockParticipant @jhancock95746]

Short answer, yes.

With 'proper' methylated spirit you will be hard pressed to 'see it' burning.

Even a hint of yellow is bad.

[ROBERT BLACKSHAWParticipant @robertblackshaw40066]

It seems I have waisted my time, I've actuality made two of these, I have had better results making the Stirling engines.

[JourneymanParticipant @journeyman]

Perseverance is the name of the game with this one. I made one a couple of years ago but could never get it to run. The cast iron piston seemed to rust quickly with the moisture generated by the fuel. I tried meths and bio-ethanol, both seem to be the same. I had another go earlier this year and finally got it to run. I remade the pistons from brass and this seems to have worked. That said it is very tempremental. The size and position of the flame is critical and I spent ages moving the burner about and adjusting the height of the wick. I eventually got it to run and made this **VIDEO** Big problem is letting cold air in and the flame must cover the port completely. I found it worked best when the flame was towards the rear of the engine. Keep trying it will run eventually. That said, I cleaned mine up after the video run and it refuses point blank to run again!

John

PS The body is stainless, pistons are brass, ball bearings on crankshaft and big end. In the video it is running on boi-ethanol, you can hardly see the flame but it is quite big.

Edited By Journeyman on 11/10/2016 18:26:44

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

I built one a number of years ago, with a cast iron cylinder and valve in a cast iron cylinder, it has a steel fly wheel(no lack of weight). I,v never got it to go. Got a couple of other flame lickers that go well.

Ian S C

[ROBERT BLACKSHAWParticipant @robertblackshaw40066]

After a lot of fine tuning I have got it spinning with out a flame like the video on you tube, but as methelated spirit flame left a build up of residue as said before it run well for about 1 min before stopping. I cleaned the cylinders and used surgical spirit and the same happened, I then tried a butane propane torch and again a build up of residue causing it to jam up. I asked my local chemist for some pure ethanol explaining what it was for but was not forthcoming,any idea where 99% ethanol can be obtained.

[JourneymanParticipant @journeyman]

I got mine from Amazon

Make sure you have no oil in the cylinder, that will gum everything up pretty quick. Even with the pure ethanol you still get loads of condensation until the cylinder is really hot. If you have a cast iron piston this will cause problems with rust.

John

[VicParticipant @vic]

Bio Ethanol like that linked may be only 95% Ethanol. Try searching for 99% Industrial Methylated Spirit.

**LINK**

[JourneymanParticipant @journeyman]

Yes it is only 95% but it works OK and you don't need to be on the register to buy it! Although you can probably get it somewhere without registering.

John

[VicParticipant @vic]

I think French Polish Thinners is industrial meths.

[ROBERT BLACKSHAWParticipant @robertblackshaw40066]

I have 99% ethanol on order,but while I wait for this I have tried it out several times with butane propane mix, again this will leave a residue. I noticed that a yellow flame is visible and will leave a black carbon mark on a clean piece of material,a disposable gas lighter leaves a even more. I would of thought that gas would be a clean flame. is this to do with the actual temperature of the flame why this will leave a black mark.

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

Any yellow in the flame will leave lamp black on the surfaces it touches, and I think meths is quite bad at this these days. My cleanest metjhs burners use iron wire in a bundle as the wick, these seem to burn quite cleanly. This is my smallest Stirling Engine (3/8" bore, 1/2" stroke), The wick is a 3/16" bundle of 26swg iron florist's wire.

Ian S C

[VicParticipant @vic]

I forgot to mention that I use a glass fibre wick in my burner. I think it's about 6mm dia. Probably bought off eBay.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by ROBERT BLACKSHAW on 24/10/2016 18:18:43:

I have 99% ethanol on order,but while I wait for this I have tried it out several times with butane propane mix, again this will leave a residue. I noticed that a yellow flame is visible and will leave a black carbon mark on a clean piece of material.

This is a sign of incomplete combustion. It's due to either a shortage of oxygen, excessive fuel in the mix, inadequate fuel-air mixing, or perhaps insufficient time for combustion to complete before the valves open.

I've not tried a flame breather yet, so take this with a pinch of salt! Liquid fuel possibilities would seem to include:

• Methanol. Pro: low carbon, available pure, few purchase restrictions. Con: fuel to air proportions relatively critical, lowish heat.
• Ethanol. Pro: low carbon. relatively wide range of satisfactory fuel/air mix. Con. Pure Ethanol is a controlled substance that's difficult to buy. Methylated Spirit, Bio-Alcohol etc. are all adulterated to discourage substance abuse and conversion to drinking alcohol. Adulterated ethanol will not be as easy to use as pure alcohol in this application.
• Acetone. Pro. Moderate carbon. Relatively wide range of satisfactory fuel/air mix similar to ethanol. Available pure. Con. Solvent that may attack plastic & rubber. Care in handling needed.
• Propanol: Pro. Moderate Carbon. Available pure. Con. fuel to air proportions relatively critical.

The relative proportion of fuel to air in this type of engine is important. Almost any mix of Hydrogen and Oxygen will burn but most other fuels are very fussy. Negative effects are failure to run at all, or production of residues.

Late thought: if you attempt to buy chemicals from your local Pharmacy they know all about medical restrictions and expect to sell small quantities only.  For example in the UK, Propanol (Rubbing Alcohol) is a Prescription item.  Better to buy it as a solvent, then you don't need a prescription and will be able to buy in quantity.

Dave

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 25/10/2016 10:39:10

[ROBERT BLACKSHAWParticipant @robertblackshaw40066]

I am still having problems with residue on the pistons and cylinder, I have with advice given now have a clean flame with no soot given off. When I start the engine it stops after under 1 minute, it again has residue like a form of corrosion on the cast iron cylinders and pistons, I am thinking is this a form of rust. I put liquid soap in the cylinder as a lubricant overnight and it spun over well but in the morning its now completely jammed up, its rust thats quickly formed. Is this a characteristic of cast iron, if so I will make a liner for it out of stainless with brass pistons.

[JourneymanParticipant @journeyman]

Robert, even with the pure ethanol you will get some water as a product of combustion also incomplete combustion will result in some free carbon. With cast iron cylinder and cast iron piston you are going to get some form of corrosion, rust, I don't think you can avoid it. The liquid soap will do nothing to help, probably the opposite as it will contain water. You must run the cylinder and pistons completly dry, no oil, no silicon, no WD40; you could possibly use powdered graphite as a lubricant. It is widely recommended that piston and cylinder should be from different materials. I used brass pistons in stainless cylinder on my flame eater. I think in the latest version of this Jan recommends a graphite piston.

Cheers John

Edited By Journeyman on 30/10/2016 13:30:32

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