Industrial Milling Machine

[John Mitchell 9Participant @johnmitchell9]

Hello,

 

We have been offered an industrial grade manual milling machine for next to nothing but we are faced with two problems and space is one of them (the other problem is obsolescence and lack of warranty).

I work for a small business and we have some on and off need in making our own [mostly aluminium] parts which until recently were all farmed out but as they are a semi-permanent thing for us, we decided to get our own milling machine in addition to a lathe that we already sourced from Chester Tools (thanks to this board).

Before anyone asks for a model, I don't have any details, other than I've been told it requires 3 cubic meters of space to fit in. So a pretty big mill.

I suppose the question I want to ask, with machinery that big and almost laughable size of parts we're going to be making, is it any wise to either re-sell it and get a small(er) Far-Eastern mill (like Chester 836 or Model T)? Or perhaps a restored Bridgeport if proceeds allow?

I feel like we're getting a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

Your thoughts are welcome as always.

 

J

Edited By John Mitchell 9 on 23/03/2020 10:34:33

[John Mitchell 9Participant @johnmitchell9]

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

3 cubic metres is not particularly big. A 1.23m square footprint and 2m high takes 3 cubic metres of space.

My hobby-sized Centec (with stand) is not that much smaller.

On that note, I reserve comment until further details are available.

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

John,

The worst thing that can happen is the company gets stuck with the transport and disposal costs if it's that cheap.

Do you have the power outlet for it?

Inspect it and see if it can do what you need + check the operating space marked out on the floor.

Get the tooling thrown in

[JourneymanParticipant @journeyman]

3 cubic metres isn't that big (as opposed to a 3m cube) A Bridgeport or similar would need more space about 1.5wide x 1deep x 2high and thats not really allowing for table movement or access. Need to find out what it is then more advice will be forthcoming.

John

[Alan Waddington 2Participant @alanwaddington2]

Industrial manual mills come in many flavours, it could be totally unsuitable for the type of work you intend to do on it.

You need to get more details before making a decision.

[GordonHParticipant @gordonh]

You need to supply more information about the machine and type of work before people can give an opinion. Some information such as,:-

1) Make, age and type of milling machine, horizontal or vertical. 

2) Conditions of machine. Do you know anyone to give an independent inspection and opinion?

3) Single or 3 phase. Do you have 3 phase available.

4) Type of tooling and is it included.

I hope this helps, it could be a bargain, or a liability.

 

Gordon

 

 

Edited By GordonH on 23/03/2020 11:25:08

Edited By GordonH on 23/03/2020 11:26:27

[John Mitchell 9Participant @johnmitchell9]

Sorry, I must have had a moment there. Indeed, it measures 3m x 3m x 3m. My apologies for this confusion.

I'm unable to go and view it as I work from home now for the foreseeable future.

I appreciate the details are scarce but to us it's more a case of whether it's justifiable to take and make room for such a beast, or pass it on.

From the limited information I have and to answer some questions (in no particular order):

– It's a muli-speed 3 phase machine with a 13HP main motor. We would prefer to have a single phase machine but we also have the electrics to support 3 phases. So the power is not a problem.

– It's a vertical mill, made in the 70-80's. They company that owns it bought it 20 years ago at 20 years old. It has been in use almost daily and "never skipped the beat". Everything works as it should. At least for them. As an engineering firm, they had much wide range of tasks to throw at it than we'd do so I have no reason not to believe the mill will do what we want.

– There is an exensive tooling set that comes with it (no doubt a sizable saving on sourcing it all new/second hand) but if it's made for a larger taper it may be lost on us shall we decide to get a smaller mill later. Another reason to just get it and start using it, then decide?

– On a side note, we could be moving premises (after the outbreak) so size might not be that big of an issue after all.

 

Sorry, I can't be of more help but as I'm sitting at home I need to find something to do. Your feedback is most welcome.

 

EDIT: just had this in the email. It's an ISO 50 tool holder. Mill made in W. Germany.

 

On this last note, would ISO 50 tooling be more expensive than say R8? Trying to weigh in all the variables for now and the future.

 

 

Thanks,

J

Edited By John Mitchell 9 on 23/03/2020 12:13:35

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

9 cubic metres of milling machine is also going to be VERY heavy. You will need professional moving help and installation will need appropriate equipment – and probably a degree of dismantling. The cost of all that could easily be more than a reasonable specced new mill, or a better second hand one. Add to that you would be getting a 40 year old machine, probably rather worn, with little backup. It may also be quite low speed as it sounds like it's made for removing large amounts from big lumps of metal, so not ideal for aluminium.

If you are making things these days for a business you would probably be better served by a CNC machine so you can transfer designs direct from CAD/CAM and also keep the manufacturing files for later use.

[John Mitchell 9Participant @johnmitchell9]

Posted by John Haine on 23/03/2020 12:12:48:

9 cubic metres of milling machine is also going to be VERY heavy. You will need professional moving help and installation will need appropriate equipment – and probably a degree of dismantling. The cost of all that could easily be more than a reasonable specced new mill, or a better second hand one. Add to that you would be getting a 40 year old machine, probably rather worn, with little backup. It may also be quite low speed as it sounds like it's made for removing large amounts from big lumps of metal, so not ideal for aluminium.

If you are making things these days for a business you would probably be better served by a CNC machine so you can transfer designs direct from CAD/CAM and also keep the manufacturing files for later use.

 

John,

Thanks for the input. This resonates with my thinking a lot. The difference between a CNC machine and this "freebie" will be thousands of pounds. Which is why we have the dilemma in the first place.

CNC mill – which would be ideal of course – would cost a fortune to move and relocate, we checked this in the past. £20k would be pretty standard, be it miles or meters. This was for a bigger specimen but it's not far off for the smaller unit. Or so we were told.

Lastly, there's no quantities of parts that we need to make. 2-3 at a time. Manual is what we thought would be more appropriate and no doubt cheaper (cost of software, training, etc adds to the bill massively!).

 

CNC wise I'm refering to a HAAS machine or a 5 axis behemoth.

Thanks again.

Edited By John Mitchell 9 on 23/03/2020 12:22:36

[HOWARDTParticipant @howardt]

At 13hp and ISO50 is a big machine. How big are the parts you want to produce? Table travel distance may be an issue for machine size. You need travel to be the length of the part plus two cutter diameters plus a bit on each end, that is ideal but you could get away with a little less. Also with aluminium spindle speed is another criteria, for production feeds and speeds will relate to spindle horsepower to work efficiently.

[John Mitchell 9Participant @johnmitchell9]

Posted by HOWARDT on 23/03/2020 12:33:30:

At 13hp and ISO50 is a big machine. How big are the parts you want to produce? Table travel distance may be an issue for machine size. You need travel to be the length of the part plus two cutter diameters plus a bit on each end, that is ideal but you could get away with a little less. Also with aluminium spindle speed is another criteria, for production feeds and speeds will relate to spindle horsepower to work efficiently.

Howard, thanks for your reply. Not that big – brackets, plates, probably not bigger than the size of your hand. Obviously, we may exand the range of services we offer and get some bigger stuff through the door but it is not the main goal.

I think you both nailed it on the head though – a bigger machine like this, unless equipped with a faster moving table, won't do Ali very well. I may be wrong here but I think you might be very right about the speed. It is likely to be slow and made for removing large chunks of metal. That being said, the shop that has it was able to use it for pretty much everything, including some of the work we gave them in the past. But at this point I don't know what was done and how exactly. This is just a guess.

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

CNC wise I'm refering to a HAAS machine or a 5 axis behemoth.

Thanks again.

Edited By John Mitchell 9 on 23/03/2020 12:22:36

I would be thinking something more like this:

**LINK**

Basically a CNC version of the SX3 mill. Or you might be able to find a nice used Denford Triac or similar though that would bring support issues. Or a small Tormach:

Tormach

Several people in the UK have bought these from the US, they have a great reputation and aren't too big.

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

A small CNC mill will come with the control software, CAD/CAM is very affordable now. And it's a myth that CNC is only for larger volume production – once you use CAD to design the part you may as well ask the machine to twiddle its own handles.

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember32069]

[This posting has been removed]

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

The issue with going straight to CNC is the amount of stuff you need to know before you can do reliable work.

With a manual machine, especially if it has a DRO set, a reference book to select the right cutter and set it to an appropriate speed followed by intelligent twiddling of the handles is about all you need to get going on a simple job. Once you have done one job you can slowly build up to more complex work almost without noticing that you are learning.

As you are simultaneously twiddling and watching you will generally be able to spot any errors before they become serious disasters. Usual beginners oopsie is chucking a job out of the vice. Rather more to making things stay put than it might seem at a casual glance.

Although modern CNC is much easier than it used to be and CAD/CAM can largely strip the need to program at the machine away there is still a lot to learn about driving it. Especially about strategies to ensure cutting only the work rather than chomping on fixtures too. Teach Yourself from scratch isn't terribly quick or even practical in an business setting.

Even if you don't actually get one a Bridgeport is a good touchstone comparator for other machines. Bridgeports became popular because they can handle a goodly proportion of the work that a single operator might expect to do. Pretty much from anything you can lift onto the machine by yourself to anything that doesn't need magnifiers to deal with. Maybe not in the most ideal way but it can manage. When considering other machines its useful to look at what a Bridgeport can do but a smaller one can't or what a larger machine can do but a Bridgeport can't.

An ISO50 machine is a serious beast.

Compared to lathes mills sprawl. Largely because the working area has to include the work holding devices as well as the job. With a lathe its clear how much room there is for the job. Not so much with a mill. With smaller machines work-holding tends to take up disproportionately more space.

Clive

[old martParticipant @oldmart]

I think it would be a good time to look that gift horse closely in the mouth. It is not really what you require, is it?

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

It's probably something along the lines of this 12T beast, a bit overkill for the odd hand sized bracket.

[Alan Waddington 2Participant @alanwaddington2]

True story, i got offered a free lathe last week. ‘If you can move it, it’s yours’ was the pitch.

I passed, as had several people before me apparently.

Moral of the story, other than export or scrap, majority of old large machines are not worth a carrot.

Cost more to haul than they are worth.

[EmgeeParticipant @emgee]

IMO just walk away from the machine, by the time you have paid a professional machine removal firm to collect, deliver and install the beast in your workshop you will have spent enough to buy a decent Bridgeport or similar manual milling machine, you can add tooling as required.

Emgee

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

9 cubic metres of milling machine is also going to be VERY heavy.

Even heavier? 3 x 3 x3 = 27. Seems like it may be a very large item

[Rod RenshawParticipant @rodrenshaw28584]

As others have said, this is clearly a large machine. It will be very heavy and may be very expensive to move. Mills are notoriously top heavy and tricky to move – even for specialists. You might want to reflect on WHY you are being offered it at a very low price. Were you the first to be offered it? – and have others turned it down because of the cost of moving it versus its utility.

[John Mitchell 9Participant @johnmitchell9]

Thanks everyone – we decided to pass on the big mill.

J

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