How Much is this Costing Me?

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

As a side issue. When I have a bath/shower or wash up, all the lovely hot water goes down the drain. Can't I have a micro heat pump to push the heat back into a clean hot water tank?

[Tim StevensParticipant @timstevens64731]

Duncan – yes of course you can. You will need a significant space(see below*) to put the devices in, and it is not likely that the output, even if you have shower after every meal, will match the cost of the installation or its servicing. *And of course, the only spare space in the average house to put such a thing is where the shower used to go.

Cheers, Tim

Edited By Tim Stevens on 09/08/2022 17:17:44

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

Duncan –

Well, you could try making such a system but I think the heat salvaged would be quite low, with its gain partly lost by the electricity driving the pump.

.

I don't use my gas boiler for the washing-up despite being only a few feet from the sink, because the bowl is overflowing by the time the water reaches the appropriate temperature. It's more efficient to boil a plain kettle holding about the right amount of water, on the gas-ring.

On which I have started using all that excess but free, astronomical infra-red radiation by putting said kettle out in it. It does not heat the water enough for washing, let alone mashing tea, but may save a few paid-for therms, BTU, kJ or whatever else we are meant to count 'em in.

Right, tea-break over. Back to the workshop for an hour or so. Steam-wagons don't get built by talking about washing-up.

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

But a kettle on a gas ring is so inefficient in terms of energy in to hot water out you are as well using an electric kettle. Unless of course it's winter and you want the wasted heat to warm the room. I have considered burgling the gas boiler control system so that I can remotely stop the gas but leave the water running to get at the hot water left in the pipes, my boiler is a long way from the kitchen sink. However it will probably remain on the to-do list. Have to be absolutely certain it couldn't turn the gas on with no water flow.

Up at the ME club we have a kettle with a load of coils of wire spot welded to the underside. This boils water much faster than the normal kettle due to higher efficiency, but I've never seen one on sale

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by blowlamp on 09/08/2022 12:23:19:

Posted by Tim Stevens on 09/08/2022 11:10:14:

Blowlamp seeks to know why energy prices have risen.

1. Demand has risen as
a. lots of folk set off on their world-tour holidays
b. Lots of firms have returned to full production
c. etc

2. Supply has reduced because of
a. attempts to reduce emissions:
b. war in Ukraine and sanctions on Russia
c. etc

Simple economics – increased demand increases prices as users compete for supplies, reduced supply increases prices as users compete for supplies.

Still not sure? Ask yourself – why are diamonds more costly than sand?…

Assuming what you say to be facts and not just 'fairy stories':

How does going on holiday affect the price of domestic gas & electric – has it ever in the past?

In connection with this, I assume you are aware that many airports have restricted the number of flights per day, so activity is actually reduced.

One would think that factories working at full capacity is a good thing and would allow energy suppliers to compete for business, thus reducing prices – what has changed?

"Simple economics – increased demand increases prices as users compete for supplies, reduced supply increases prices as users compete for supplies."

Any reduced supply has come about as a result of policy decisions, rather than the Earth's energy supplies running out, so must be self-inflicted.

I'm sure I heard somewhere that the UK only got 4% of its energy from Russia.

So according to you, prices can now only ever go up, regardless of demand. This seems to be a change from the 'simple economics' of yesteryear.

Have you seen this years profit figures for gas & oil companies?

Diamonds are rarer than sand and so cost more. If you mean why are they ludicrously expensive, then that is down to marketing and the fact that supply is artificially restricted and has been for a long time.

Martin.

Alas, who believes in fairy stories? We do! Shall we vote for the nice lady promising tax cuts or the chap who says they're unaffordable and will cause more inflation? Of course we vote for the promise of tax cuts , and don't care if they never materialise or inflation takes off! Much easier to believe in a comforting fib than an unpleasant truth.

People want to go on holiday because COVID isn't causing too much trouble at the moment. But they want to fly before the aeronautical system has recovered from a couple of years of almost zero activity. Equipment has been mothballed and staff laid off, and now lots of people want to travel than there's not enough capacity to take them. Putting an airliner back into service isn't as simple as whipping off a dust sheet and turning a key. After the COVID restart the economy is running like a badly neglected engine.

'One would think that factories working at full capacity is a good thing and would allow energy suppliers to compete for business, thus reducing prices' is a misunderstanding. That's what happens when supply is in surplus. Unfortunately a shortage is forcing factory owners to bid against each other, and prices are rising exactly as theory says they will. Prices drop when customers have plenty of choice.

UK was getting about 8% of it's energy from Russia, not 4%, but many other European countries were far more dependent. Now Germany, Poland, and most of middle Europe are competing to make up the gap. Not getting fuel from Russia is making the shortage due to COVID recovery much worse and it will stay that way until more can be supplied from elsewhere. The Russian difficulty is due to a policy decision, but not one anyone on this forum can influence. Mr Putin will be delighted if Martin and I shiver next winter because he hopes the resulting discontent will put incompetent far-left or far-right politicians in charge of all countries who disagree with him. (Either type of idiot will do provided he comes out on top.) Point is, no-one is independent. Used to be said that if the US economy sneezed the rest of the world caught a cold. Now almost any economy in trouble upsets all the others because the world is much more interconnected.

Tim's diamond versus sand example was slightly unfortunate, but even if the price of diamonds floated freely they'd still be far more expensive than sand. How about Steel Rebar and Rhodium? Rebar is trading today at $611 per metric ton, and Rhodium is $14,800 per ounce. Rhodium being much rarer than Iron…

Understanding actual cause and effect rather than relying on gut feel is important because getting the answer wrong matters! Never works well when engineers fix the wrong thing or use inappropriate methods. Other fields are the same: people mess up unless they put the effort in! Don't reject Tim's comments just because they're bad news. Understand the rules, review the evidence, and act accordingly. Simply blaming someone else rarely helps – better to make friends unless they really are guilty, and sometimes even then!

Dave

[Clive SteerParticipant @clivesteer55943]

A cheap way to get hot water with the weather we are having at the moment is to leave you watering hose laid out in the sun full of water of course.

CS

[Anonymous]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 09/08/2022 11:03:45:

If I never open the box to check the castings are unmachined, have I made a Quorn?

Think outside the box (!) – you might have a dead cat.

[Andy AshParticipant @andyash24902]

One of these fine days, the youngsters will realise that the UK is actually made of coal.

When they get cold and fed up, they'll figure out how to get it out of the ground and how to keep warm by it.

Good luck to them. If I'm lucky, they might even figure it out before I fade away.

[Mark RandParticipant @markrand96270]

The youngsters aren't going to get cold. We and our recent ancestors have warmed things up to the point that cold, in this country, is a thing of the past.

No more ice fairs on the Thames, I'm afraid.

[Paul KempParticipant @paulkemp46892]

Posted by Tim Stevens on 09/08/2022 11:10:14:

Blowlamp seeks to know why energy prices have risen.

1. Demand has risen as
a. lots of folk set off on their world-tour holidays
b. Lots of firms have returned to full production
c. etc

2. Supply has reduced because of
a. attempts to reduce emissions:
b. war in Ukraine and sanctions on Russia
c. etc

Simple economics – increased demand increases prices as users compete for supplies, reduced supply increases prices as users compete for supplies.

Still not sure? Ask yourself – why are diamonds more costly than sand?

Hopper views everything as fairy stories, but in my view, some of those fairy stories are backed by evidence – which can be repeated and tested and makes sense. Of course, relying on this does rely on the existence of, and confidence in, sense. Other theories are available, but many of them don't work.

Regards, Tim

Edited By Tim Stevens on 09/08/2022 11:10:57

1. (Demand has risen) – has it? Limiting this to energy and comparing 2022 demand to 2019, has demand risen significantly? The overall demand may have risen slightly in the UK but certainly not in the order of magnitude to rising costs. Globally the demand for gas has risen compared to 2019 particularly in Asia where there are many new gas powered generating plants coming on line. There was an article in the economist earlier in the year suggesting that if Asia demand for gas continues on its current trajectory by 2025 (if I remember the date correctly) their requirement would equal the entire world production in 2019. a (holidays) is irrelevant, aviation demand for fuel has not yet returned to 2019 levels. b not really relevant as returning to full production only takes us back to where we were in 2019 and in fact many areas world wide have not returned to full production (chips). c nonsense non specific reason.

2. (Supply has fallen) – a true in the UK with regard to coal fired power stations and also lack of investment in nuclear with no clear plan as to how to replace the declining fossil fuelled producers with green solutions in the UK to meet demand without relying on imports (see below). b true as although we were not taking large amounts of Russian gas we did end up even indirectly taking oil and believe it or not coal (it’s not green to dig our own but ok to take someone else’s already dug). c nonsense non specific reason.

The clear answer is UK is an island but not a self sufficient island insulated from global impacts. While we may have only taken a small percentage of gas from Russia we took a significant amount from other sources in the world (Isle of Grain gas terminal with LPG tankers pitching up weekly!). Because these other sources have no come under pressure the supply / demand economic argument comes into play – because there are more customers for the available product the supplier is able to charge a premium. Same scenario with oil. On imported electricity as the exporters are under pressure at home (Europe) they are not of a mind to sell electricity they also need cheaply – remember the recent record price for a short period in the heatwave? If someone is digging you out of a hole you generally have to pay for it!

When the oil price went negative for a short period during covid no one was screaming out to recompense oil companies for losses and yet now it has risen and is at a premium (now dropping again) everyone is complaining about profits. Also with retailers it’s worth noting that it is usual practice in the oil / fuel market to hedge or buy forward, poor decisions or gambles committing to many tonnes of product when the price was high means it needs to be sold high.

There is no great mystery to any of it.

Paul.

[V8EngParticipant @v8eng]

Seems that may have issues with cuts on top of fuel costs to worry about in the coming winter months.

Power

 

Edited By V8Eng on 09/08/2022 23:51:42

[Andy AshParticipant @andyash24902]

Posted by V8Eng on 09/08/2022 23:43:14:

Seems that may have issues with cuts on top of fuel costs to worry about in the coming winter months.

Power

Edited By V8Eng on 09/08/2022 23:51:42

Nice post. I've been waiting for an update on that for a couple of weeks now.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by Tim Stevens on 09/08/2022 12:16:44:

Goodness me, Hopper, philosophy on a Tuesday morning.

Yes, you are right, in so far as I cannot prove that you are wrong. But in order to survive, we learn early on to follow certain conventions which work out to be useful, as long as others do the same. We say 'The sun is bright today' on the basis of a convention that what we percieve as (or think we do) a blob in the sky which dazzles us whenever we gaze at it is called The Sun, and so ad infinitum.

If we don't accept these conventions, nothing I write here will mean to you anything remotely like what I intend it to mean, so is there any point in pretending to discuss the matter further?

Yours conventionally – Tim

Damn. Is my arts degree showing again? It's always philosophy day in my workshop.

But this is not philosophy. It is science. See quantum physics, Steven Hawking, M-Theory and "model-dependent realism".

The latter includes the agreed upon models we use to navigate in the world, (eg Newtons laws of motion) and it works for everyday situations. But that does not mean it is a true or even accurate depiction of what reality actually is, the scientists say (as Newton's laws have been disproved by quantum physics). And that reality may not be just one reality, but a number of different realities that exist simultaneously, the scientists say.

Yours philosophically — Hopper

[NealebParticipant @nealeb]

Posted by duncan webster on 09/08/2022 19:13:54:

my boiler is a long way from the kitchen sink.

I was in a similar position, although my hot water comes via a hot-water cylinder. Feed to kitchen was via a 22mm copper pipe buried in a concrete floor slab (done by a previous owner). Might have made sense with cheap energy and sink/washing machine/dishwasher to feed but a real pain now that w/m has been moved, d/w is cold-fill only. Couple of weeks ago I ran a 15mm plastic pipe complete with insulation from cylinder to sink. Saves water/time/energy. Doubt if the payback time makes strict economic sense but £35 in materials was worth the increased convenience.

I guess it's a very small-scale example of "invest now to save later" decision-making that it would be good to see at a national level?

[CirclipParticipant @circlip]

Latest quotation from existing household insurance company just hit the mat. With no change in building or contents insured value, 'New' three year fixed price contract shows an increase of more than fifty percent on existing charge. We are, at this point in time 'In consultation'

Regards Ian.

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Posted by Hopper on 09/08/2022 11:25:05:

Posted by Tim Stevens on 09/08/2022 11:10:14:

Hopper views everything as fairy stories, but in my view, some of those fairy stories are backed by evidence – which can be repeated and tested and makes sense. Of course, relying on this does rely on the existence of, and confidence in, sense. Other theories are available, but many of them don't work.

But that evidence and those test results are once again relayed to the brain as electro-chemical signals and the brain constructs its own fairy story to explain the input. So we are confirming fairy stories with fairy stories…

Brain…? electro-chemical signals…?

Aren't these also part of the fairy story?

Martin.

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

Posted by Circlip on 10/08/2022 09:47:40:

Latest quotation from existing household insurance company just hit the mat. With no change in building or contents insured value, 'New' three year fixed price contract shows an increase of more than fifty percent on existing charge. We are, at this point in time 'In consultation'

Regards Ian.

Insurance companies seem well aware of the how to boil a frog principle, a quote just dropped through my door for home insurance of £380, a quick visit to the meerkat had quotes for buildings and contents ranging from £75. I won’t be paying £380 or £75 but plenty of recognisable companies in the lower to middle range of quotes.

Mike

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Andy Ash on 09/08/2022 22:47:51:

One of these fine days, the youngsters will realise that the UK is actually made of coal.

…

The idea there's a lot of coal under the UK is wrong. Used to be true but most of it was mined before 1960 and god isn't making any more! About 1830 it was predicted British coal would last about 150 years and the Victorian estimate wasn't far wrong.

Facts are always a better foundation than wishful thinking. In fact, UK coal reserves are about 77 million tons. (Reported in 2016). Britain has less than 0.1% of world coal reserves, a little more than Afghanistan, and rather less than Zaire. New Zealand has much more coal than we do, but they're also paupers.

Basing UK energy policy on the assumption plenty of coal is available locally would be a terrible mistake.

Dave

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

UK coal reserves depend on which document you read and on relative accessibility quite apart from environmental aspects.
The UK has identified hard coal resources of 3 910 million tonnes, although total resources could be as large as 187 billion tonnes. There are 33 million tonnes of economically recoverable reserves available at operational and permitted mines, plus a further 344 million tonnes at mines in planning. There are also about 1 000 million tonnes of lignite resources, mainly in Northern Ireland, although no lignite is mined.
https://euracoal.eu/info/country-profiles/united-kingdom/
link

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by pgk pgk on 10/08/2022 11:48:41:

UK coal reserves depend on which document you read and on relative accessibility quite apart from environmental aspects.
The UK has identified hard coal resources of 3 910 million tonnes, although total resources could be as large as 187 billion tonnes. There are 33 million tonnes of economically recoverable reserves available at operational and permitted mines, plus a further 344 million tonnes at mines in planning. There are also about 1 000 million tonnes of lignite resources, mainly in Northern Ireland, although no lignite is mined.
https://euracoal.eu/info/country-profiles/united-kingdom/
link

The site you link to bills itself as "The Voice of Coal in Europe" so is not an unbiased source.

The source Dave (SOD) linked to, Worldometer, is an unbiased stat site in my experience.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by Mike Poole on 10/08/2022 10:24:15:

Posted by Circlip on 10/08/2022 09:47:40:

Latest quotation from existing household insurance company just hit the mat. With no change in building or contents insured value, 'New' three year fixed price contract shows an increase of more than fifty percent on existing charge. We are, at this point in time 'In consultation'

Regards Ian.

Insurance companies seem well aware of the how to boil a frog principle, a quote just dropped through my door for home insurance of £380, a quick visit to the meerkat had quotes for buildings and contents ranging from £75. I won’t be paying £380 or £75 but plenty of recognisable companies in the lower to middle range of quotes.

Mike

Consider yourself fortunate. My house and contents insurance is $2,500 a year, about 1250 Quid. I expect it will be going up astronomically next year as the insurers have to pay out massively for widespread floods in Australia this year, and the stockmarket is down — which is how insurance companies make much of their profit by investing the premiums pool they sit on awaiting payouts to claims.

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

Posted by Hopper on 10/08/2022 11:59:00:

Posted by pgk pgk on 10/08/2022 11:48:41:

UK coal reserves depend on which document you read and on relative accessibility quite apart from environmental aspects.

The site you link to bills itself as "The Voice of Coal in Europe" so is not an unbiased source.

The source Dave (SOD) linked to, Worldometer, is an unbiased stat site in my experience.

Worldometer usually take their figures from government publications and very much dependant on how those figures were arrived at. Agree the link I used is biased and will include uneconomic sources…but they are only uneconomic at today's price. I see no reason to doubt the underlying geology. If memory serves there are undersea seams in our waters too. Equally greenwashing and pushing public opinion colours gov figures. What is daft is importing coal instead of using our own.

[SamsarandaParticipant @samsaranda]

One of our biggest imports of coal was from Russia, presumably that’s not happening now. As stated makes no sense as we have vast reserves to stop mining our own, before the Green Lobby start gnashing their teeth coal is used in various industries it’s not just burnt in power stations, there are many useful chemical compounds derived from coal that we will still need. Dave W

[jimmy bParticipant @jimmyb]

I've just checked my power meter for my shed (12' x 10' wood construction, partly insulated) I've used just over £600 in 4 years and that includes heating (2.5kw radiator), so £150 a year.

I thought it would be more, at today's rates that would be around £300 (I've not updated the electric rates for a year or two…)

Given I use around £100 worth of petrol a week, the shed use looks ok!

Jim

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by pgk pgk on 10/08/2022 12:25:20:

Posted by Hopper on 10/08/2022 11:59:00:

Posted by pgk pgk on 10/08/2022 11:48:41:

UK coal reserves depend on which document you read and on relative accessibility…

The site you link to bills itself as "The Voice of Coal in Europe" so is not an unbiased source.

The source Dave (SOD) linked to, Worldometer, is an unbiased stat site in my experience.

Worldometer usually take their figures from government publications and very much dependant on how those figures were arrived at. Agree the link I used is biased and will include uneconomic sources…but they are only uneconomic at today's price. I see no reason to doubt the underlying geology….

Interesting to see such different numbers. I suspect Worldometer are reporting recoverable coal and Voice of Coal are reporting all coal, whether recoverable or not.

For example, Voice of Coal report 1 billion tons in Northern Ireland, about 20% of the UK total. Other surveys suggest 600 million tons but everyone agrees It's Lignite. Lignite or 'brown coal' is the lowest form of coal. It's up to 30% carbon and wet, completely useless for running steam engines or steel-making. But it could be burned in a coal power station built on top of a large strip mine. No-one in Northern Ireland wants it. Not an easy win for coal, and I suspect the deposit isn't considered 'recoverable' for policy reasons.

Thin seams deep underground are another reason UK coal isn't recoverable. The Durham Mining Museum has lots of information about coal mining in the North of England, including details of coal seams detected by shafts. Picked at random, the Elemore Colliery was about 5 miles from Durham. Opened in 1825, main seam exhausted in 1892, became part of a larger complex for drainage and ventilation until the group closed in 1972. 165 known deaths.

The coal:

• At 67metres deep, a 0.7m of coarse slaty coal. 0.53m of coal at 69m & 0.58m at 70m
• Seam 0.15m thick at 72m
• 0.38m seam at 94m & 0.36m at 108m
• 125m down is 1.83m of coal three thick seams, separated by only 0.56m of rubbish
• At 149m, a seam 0.18m thick
• And at 172.2 metres. another layer of profitable coal – 1.73m

How much is left? Depends on the value of coal versus the cost of recovery, but the outlook in this example is grim. I suspect the top 3 seams were extracted in the early 19th century because 1.82m of coal was mixed with only 0.86m of muck.

The thin 0.15m layer is likely intact because mining it requires huge amount of waste to be removed. The economics are still poor: would anyone today dig a 72 metre shaft in order to exploit a coal seam only 0.17m thick? Possibly in future, but only if coal becomes massively more expensive.

The 0.36 and 0.38m seams are marginal. I suspect they're still there because getting the coal out when the mine was operating meant a lot muck had to be removed with it. Not much return for a lot of work. Today, the economics of a 100m deep shaft to reach two thin seams are poor.

The thin seam at 149m is almost certainly untouched, but retrieving it would be seriously expensive. Too much rubbish has to be lifted out for not much coal.

Quite a lot of the two big seams may still be available. Early miners used the pillar & stall method. Even though the pillars were aggressively thinned out as the mine reached end of life, a lot of coal is left behind – it holds up the roof! If old galleries are close to the surface, it's possible now to get the coal by strip mining – modern earth moving equipment is very capable. But strip mining gets gets more damaging to the surface and expensive with depth. Digging out a 172m deep strip mine might be viable in the wilds of Australia, but the Durham area is heavily populated! (Southerners won't care if County Durham and most of Yorkshire are strip mined, but locals will make a silly fuss.)

Later the longwall method was used. Almost all the coal is removed, so what's left isn't worth reworking. There are no pillars. Instead the roof is carefully collapsed behind the working face as it moves forward.

Whichever method was used the ground is left badly weakened and full of water filled voids. They are extremely dangerous to approach with new tunnels seeking untouched coal, and the cost severely limits what's practically recoverable.

This website shows most UK coal mines dug in modern times. There are a lot them! As our forefathers did a good job removing all the coal they could, knew where to dig, and thoroughly churned up the ground, there isn't a massive amount of easily extracted coal left in the UK. I think Voice of Coal are glossing over that in order to encourage investment. There is coal, but not as much as they suggest.

Energy can be recovered from thin seams by setting fire to them and allowing only enough air for a smoulder. Pumped out and cleaned up the resulting gases is rather like original Town Gas. Unfortunately even keen coal fan-boys become NIMBYs on finding their house is to have burning coal underneath!

Dave

 

 

 

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 11/08/2022 19:08:59

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