How Much is this Costing Me?

[GreensandsParticipant @greensands]

Has anyone carried out any similar power consumption checks for a Myford S7 when left running at idling speeds? Sorry but can't supply any details on the SP motor to reveal the model/reference number details as this would involve moving the whole ensemble away from the wall and that is a no-no at the moment.

[SamsarandaParticipant @samsaranda]

I changed 6 four foot fluorescent tubes in my workshop for 6 four foot led “tubes”, to me the difference in light output was amazing, I can work in their during the day with the blinds pulled down over the windows to shut out the sun in the hot weather, I know that the rated consumption of the led tubes was considerably less than the fluorescents although I haven’t measured the consumption for comparison so I am happy that I am using far less electricity to light the workshop, it’s got to be the way to go. Dave W

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

Dave –

Actually the trade registrations do affect us because the holders must recover the consequent direct costs and loss of earnings. So they spread it around their bills, just as they pay for their tools and vehicles.

My point though, is that I should have sought advice before agreeing to have smart meters, and I would would far rather trust an independent builder and gas-fitter than the suppliers' advertising, let alone the wafflings of politicians who barely know energy from power.

I, and no doubt many others, were led to believe we would have to fit them; either voluntarily as I did or not too far ahead, law. So should have asked someone I know understands the matter professionally, but who has no vested political or commercial interest in "smart" meters. However much you denigrate him as a mere "plumber" .

. . .

In any case, does the meter type make a scrap of difference?

I try to limit my gas and electricity consumption as much as possible, as I live in a poorly-insulated Edwardian terraced home and have an energy-hungry hobby.

So I counted what uses electricity if I work until late in the evening in the workshop, which is unheated and lit by two l.e.d flourescent strips. All that are running in the house are the fridge and freezer (under-counter types), oven clock, boiler control unit (and its intermittent fan if the heating is on), broadband modem, and bedroom clock/radio.

No lights, no chargers left on needlessly let alone over-night, no PC or TV on "stand-by" (actually, no TV). When I switch the computer off, I switch off the mains socket too.

The radios in the kitchen and front room (both basic "trannies" ) are still "On" despite the switch being "Off". I realised this by a faint hum from one, and the indicator l.e.d. on the other. I now turn off their mains sockets as well, when not needing them for several hours.

I bought a 'phone intended to allow caller-display and blocking, etc.; found it needs plugging into the mains all the time, replaced it in the carton – must try and sell it.

'

Yes, of course I still need use gas and electricity domestically; but the workshop, radio and PC and by choice. So the type of meter won't make a scrap of difference. How can it, despite the Government's propaganda?

It will be cost that controls us, neither fancy digital display nor conventional, straightforward kW/h counter.

What am I meant to do when I next set the lathe on a long self-acting cut? Run back to the house to read the meter? What is a local power-meter really going to do for me, if I still want to make that part?

'

This all reminds me of a friend who once complained to me the cost of keeping a horse. I replied, "Well, you chose to own two of them, plus horse-box, paddock and stable!" She – far wealthier than me – had to agree, rather ruefully!

.

I have had various conversations with my building-trade pal; on costs.

We agreed that far too many people seem unable to grasp the simple concept of overheads / call-out charges / labour costs. I knew I cost my employer's customers a lot more than even my quite good, gross, wage.

On road fuels, he asked, do we want to save the money by having no social and leisure life; or simply be a bit more careful about our journeys? Similarly with the utilities.

He and I, and probably most of us on this forum, cannot complain too much when there are very many people having to sacrifice so much more than we need.

It's not going to get much better, either, in the foreseeable future.

 

Edited By Nigel Graham 2 on 08/08/2022 14:08:09

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by Nigel Graham 2 on 08/08/2022 13:58:32:

This all reminds me of a friend who once complained to me the cost of keeping a horse. I replied, "Well, you chose to own two of them, plus horse-box, paddock and stable!" She – far wealthier than me – had to agree, rather ruefully!

.

Indeed. If you think running a 750W lathe motor intermittently is expensive, yes try a horse or two. Even a cat or a dog these days seems to cost more in vet bills than my annual medical expenditure on myself. Or a boat. B.O.A.T. Bring Out Another Thousand, aka " A hole in the water you throw money into".

On the other hand, perhaps I should convert my old Drummond lathe back to its original treadle power just in case.

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

It won't be long before we are 'offered' tarrifs dependant on time of day and wind speed. Next step will be to fix tarrifs so that those on dumb meters will pay more no matter what they do. Telling SWMBO that she can't do the washing until the wind picks up could be difficult. No point getting upset, go with the flow, or as my son says, take a chill pill.

[Coggy CParticipant @coggyclapsaddle]

Posted by Samsaranda on 08/08/2022 13:54:20:

I changed 6 four foot fluorescent tubes in my workshop for 6 four foot led “tubes”, to me the difference in light output was amazing, I can work in their during the day with the blinds pulled down over the windows to shut out the sun in the hot weather, I know that the rated consumption of the led tubes was considerably less than the fluorescents although I haven’t measured the consumption for comparison so I am happy that I am using far less electricity to light the workshop, it’s got to be the way to go. Dave W

I went all led about two years ago and the improvement in light quality was worth the cost of the tubes, plus I'm saving money on electric, though the cost of the electric has curtailed my use of machines and as the time factor is unimportant to me I've started doing far more jobs manually which takes longer and is more tiring but at least it only costs me the wear on the tools.

Edited By Coggy Clapsaddle on 08/08/2022 14:54:27

[SamsarandaParticipant @samsaranda]

Duncan, just over three years ago my fixed term energy contract was up for renewal with Shell Energy, when I looked at the 3 year fixed term contracts on offer, bearing in mind I have an Economy Seven tariff, there was only one that was available for me because I didn’t have a Smart Meter fitted, if I had a Smart Meter there were I think four different Economy Seven tariffs that I could have and all had a cheaper unit price than the one that I was forced to choose. I am resolutely against Smart Meters for all the devious arrangements that they will bring forth, none of them to the advantage of the customer so I opted for the tariff without Smart Metering. The three year tariff that I chose expired at the end of June and now because of the turmoil in the energy markets Shell Energy only offer one Economy Seven tariff and that is regardless of whatever metering you have, so the same price for all customers because of the Offgem price cap, suffice to say that I still resist having a Smart Meter, despite receiving constant emails to try and persuade me otherwise. I felt that when I was restricted to be able to choose only one of five tariffs on offer three years ago that the supplier was acting in a bullying and immoral way trying to blackmail loyal customers, I do realise that nowadays loyalty counts for nothing it’s balance sheets are the only issue that matters to them and they don’t give a damn how they achieve their financial targets. The manipulation via Smart Meters regarding pricing and times that you mentioned will be coming only too soon. Dave W

[john fletcher 1Participant @johnfletcher1]

For us domestic customers we have a Kilowatt hour meter, so power factor doesn't come into it. Straight amp X volt is near enough. It's s either you want to use your work shop or you don't simple as that, avoid the worry and stress. John

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

I'm not intending to have a go any individuals here, but the conversation within this thread goes to highlight one of the problems we humans have and that is that we can adapt to almost anything, even if it is to our common detriment.

I presume that most of us realise that there is no reasonable explanation with regard to the massive price hikes that have happend and are also scheduled to happen, yet this thread shows that not only are many accepting of it, but we are also chatting amongst ourselves as to how we are going to get along with it and somehow cope with whatever the consequences are.

Saving energy is always the best idea, but I'd like to know how, within the space of six or seven months, an average £1300-£1500 annual home energy bill has more than doubled, with some talk of an increase towards £4000+ by next year.

At this rate, charity, food banks, and soup kitchens are going to become the norm and I'm getting the feeling we're sleepwalking right into that scenario.

Martin.

[Mark RandParticipant @markrand96270]

Just a contrarian opinion on folks' happiness on changing to LED lighting from fluorescent lighting.

The lumens per Watt for LED tubes and (new ish) tri-phosphor fluorescent tubes are very similar. You save power when replacing an old 36W fluorescent tube with a 22W LED dube, but you've still got little more than half the brightness than you would have if you put in a new fluorescrent tube.

I've got 14 36W tubes in my shed for a reason:- I like to be able to see!

[Frances IoMParticipant @francesiom58905]

suggest you look at Germany in 1920s as their currency collapsed into hyper inflation – the resulting politics was horrendous in its effects.

15% inflation would halve the value of current near zero rate savings within
7yrs.

[Tim StevensParticipant @timstevens64731]

Blowlamp reminds us of 'one of the problems we have'

Can i remind us of another – the tendency, when we don't know what is going on, or why, to invent fairy stories and spread them around as if they were 'gospel'. Well, there's a clue there – this has been going on a long long time.

Please, everyone, if you don't know the facts with a good degree of certainty, guess if you like, but DO IT SILENTLY.

Thanks – Tim

[HOWARDTParticipant @howardt]

The simple answer to the original question can surely be gleaned by giving up all machining work for a month, then compare usage. Of course you may during that time put the kettle on more and negate any difference.

[HowiParticipant @howi]

Posted by blowlamp on 08/08/2022 16:40:28:

I'm not intending to have a go any individuals here, but the conversation within this thread goes to highlight one of the problems we humans have and that is that we can adapt to almost anything, even if it is to our common detriment.

I presume that most of us realise that there is no reasonable explanation with regard to the massive price hikes that have happend and are also scheduled to happen, yet this thread shows that not only are many accepting of it, but we are also chatting amongst ourselves as to how we are going to get along with it and somehow cope with whatever the consequences are.

Saving energy is always the best idea, but I'd like to know how, within the space of six or seven months, an average £1300-£1500 annual home energy bill has more than doubled, with some talk of an increase towards £4000+ by next year.

At this rate, charity, food banks, and soup kitchens are going to become the norm and I'm getting the feeling we're sleepwalking right into that scenario.

Martin.

with regard to power bills (and mortgages) WE have no say in the overall price determined by market rates, it is not a case of blindly accepting what is happening as we have no control.

I note you have not listed our OTHER options!

Charity, food banks, soup kitchens are the norm for a lot of people – where have you been?

the scenario is already here and it is not only in this country, look around you, open your eyes and get your head out of the sand.

I remember mortgage rates of 15% and having no say in the matter other than to lump it and pay up.

If you do not know why energy prices have risen, you need to get out more, the facts are there but you seem to just ignore them.

there are non so blind as those that do not want to see.

come on! we are waiting for your solution………..

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Posted by Howi on 09/08/2022 09:52:51:

Posted by blowlamp on 08/08/2022 16:40:28:

I'm not intending to have a go any individuals here, but the conversation within this thread goes to highlight one of the problems we humans have and that is that we can adapt to almost anything, even if it is to our common detriment.

I presume that most of us realise that there is no reasonable explanation with regard to the massive price hikes that have happend and are also scheduled to happen, yet this thread shows that not only are many accepting of it, but we are also chatting amongst ourselves as to how we are going to get along with it and somehow cope with whatever the consequences are.

Saving energy is always the best idea, but I'd like to know how, within the space of six or seven months, an average £1300-£1500 annual home energy bill has more than doubled, with some talk of an increase towards £4000+ by next year.

At this rate, charity, food banks, and soup kitchens are going to become the norm and I'm getting the feeling we're sleepwalking right into that scenario.

Martin.

with regard to power bills (and mortgages) WE have no say in the overall price determined by market rates, it is not a case of blindly accepting what is happening as we have no control.

I note you have not listed our OTHER options!

Charity, food banks, soup kitchens are the norm for a lot of people – where have you been?

the scenario is already here and it is not only in this country, look around you, open your eyes and get your head out of the sand.

I remember mortgage rates of 15% and having no say in the matter other than to lump it and pay up.

If you do not know why energy prices have risen, you need to get out more, the facts are there but you seem to just ignore them.

there are non so blind as those that do not want to see.

come on! we are waiting for your solution………..

I've raised points, you've agreed with them, then you tell me I'm too blind to see and have my head in the sand and then you tell me to provide a solution.

I'd be genuinely interested in your explanation of energy price rises as I really do not know why this is happening

Martin.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by Tim Stevens on 08/08/2022 17:11:25:

Blowlamp reminds us of 'one of the problems we have'

Can i remind us of another – the tendency, when we don't know what is going on, or why, to invent fairy stories and spread them around as if they were 'gospel'. Well, there's a clue there – this has been going on a long long time.

Please, everyone, if you don't know the facts with a good degree of certainty, guess if you like, but DO IT SILENTLY.

Thanks – Tim

But everything we perceive is a fairy story constructed by our brain to explain the electro-chemical signals coming in from out eyes and ears etc to our brain. It doesn't actually see anything. It just receives a bunch of signals and constructs a mental picture of what it thinks is out there. We have no way of knowing if the universe we think is out there is actually out there or is just a communal fairy story that we all agree upon.

Silence resumed.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

If I never open the box to check the castings are unmachined, have I made a Quorn?

Neil

[Tim StevensParticipant @timstevens64731]

Blowlamp seeks to know why energy prices have risen.

1. Demand has risen as
a. lots of folk set off on their world-tour holidays
b. Lots of firms have returned to full production
c. etc

2. Supply has reduced because of
a. attempts to reduce emissions:
b. war in Ukraine and sanctions on Russia
c. etc

Simple economics – increased demand increases prices as users compete for supplies, reduced supply increases prices as users compete for supplies.

Still not sure? Ask yourself – why are diamonds more costly than sand?

Hopper views everything as fairy stories, but in my view, some of those fairy stories are backed by evidence – which can be repeated and tested and makes sense. Of course, relying on this does rely on the existence of, and confidence in, sense. Other theories are available, but many of them don't work.

Regards, Tim

Edited By Tim Stevens on 09/08/2022 11:10:57

[Tim StevensParticipant @timstevens64731]

Neil – I suggest you ask Mr Schroedinger. He might know (but I doubt it).

Cheers, Tim

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 09/08/2022 11:03:45:

If I never open the box to check the castings are unmachined, have I made a Quorn?

Neil

Aha! The famous Schrodinger's Quorn, both made and unmade. All those ball handles lying in wait for someone to open the box and catch them unawares.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by Tim Stevens on 09/08/2022 11:10:14:

Hopper views everything as fairy stories, but in my view, some of those fairy stories are backed by evidence – which can be repeated and tested and makes sense. Of course, relying on this does rely on the existence of, and confidence in, sense. Other theories are available, but many of them don't work.

But that evidence and those test results are once again relayed to the brain as electro-chemical signals and the brain constructs its own fairy story to explain the input. So we are confirming fairy stories with fairy stories.

For instance, it is entirely possible that the entire universe and everything in it was created just 15 minutes ago, complete with its full human population equipped with embedded false memories of their lives so far and of world history etc and false Roman ruins, fossils and carbon dating etc. We have no way of knowing if this is true or not true.

 

Edited By Hopper on 09/08/2022 11:40:22

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

Posted by Tim Stevens on 09/08/2022 11:17:13:

Neil – I suggest you ask Mr Schroedinger. He might know (but I doubt it).

Cheers, Tim

You could never be certain. As an American judge has just said, believing something doesn't make it true.

[Tim StevensParticipant @timstevens64731]

Goodness me, Hopper, philosophy on a Tuesday morning.

Yes, you are right, in so far as I cannot prove that you are wrong. But in order to survive, we learn early on to follow certain conventions which work out to be useful, as long as others do the same. We say 'The sun is bright today' on the basis of a convention that what we percieve as (or think we do) a blob in the sky which dazzles us whenever we gaze at it is called The Sun, and so ad infinitum.

If we don't accept these conventions, nothing I write here will mean to you anything remotely like what I intend it to mean, so is there any point in pretending to discuss the matter further?

Yours conventionally – Tim

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Posted by Tim Stevens on 09/08/2022 11:10:14:

Blowlamp seeks to know why energy prices have risen.

1. Demand has risen as
a. lots of folk set off on their world-tour holidays
b. Lots of firms have returned to full production
c. etc

2. Supply has reduced because of
a. attempts to reduce emissions:
b. war in Ukraine and sanctions on Russia
c. etc

Simple economics – increased demand increases prices as users compete for supplies, reduced supply increases prices as users compete for supplies.

Still not sure? Ask yourself – why are diamonds more costly than sand?…

Assuming what you say to be facts and not just 'fairy stories':

How does going on holiday affect the price of domestic gas & electric – has it ever in the past?

In connection with this, I assume you are aware that many airports have restricted the number of flights per day, so activity is actually reduced.

One would think that factories working at full capacity is a good thing and would allow energy suppliers to compete for business, thus reducing prices – what has changed?

"Simple economics – increased demand increases prices as users compete for supplies, reduced supply increases prices as users compete for supplies."

Any reduced supply has come about as a result of policy decisions, rather than the Earth's energy supplies running out, so must be self-inflicted.

I'm sure I heard somewhere that the UK only got 4% of its energy from Russia.

So according to you, prices can now only ever go up, regardless of demand. This seems to be a change from the 'simple economics' of yesteryear.

Have you seen this years profit figures for gas & oil companies?

Diamonds are rarer than sand and so cost more. If you mean why are they ludicrously expensive, then that is down to marketing and the fact that supply is artificially restricted and has been for a long time.

Martin.

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

This is getting silly. It's not all a conspiracy. When demand exceeds supply the price goes up. European nations have artificially reduced supply by trying to not buy Mr Putin's gas. We don't buy Mr Putin's gas and oil, but those who used to are now trying to buy from the Arabs and other suppliers, who have chosen not to increase their output, so the price goes up. Supply and demand doesn't always work, sometimes a producer decides he can make more money by selling less at a higher price, but there is naff all the buyer can do about it except perhaps invade the gas producing countries. Somehow I don't see that ending well. We should never have got ourselves in the position of being dependant on overseas suppliers, but we are where we are. Had we gone for nuclear in a big way 20 years ago we wouldn't be here now, and we could still use fracking to get gas to tide us over the transition. With fairly minor mods I could run my car on gas (CNG) Greenies won't like it because they think we can turn off the gas now. The ~20% of electricity we generate from nuclear will rapidly tail off as we haven't built any new ones since 1995 and existing stations are rapidly coming to end of life. France generates ~80% of its electricity from Nukes, but even they are struggling as the rivers which supply cooling water are drying up. Fortunately we have the sea all round, which is unlikely to dry up.

[Author]

Posts