How Much is this Costing Me?

[Chris CrewParticipant @chriscrew66644]

I have been in the workshop this morning for one of my regular exercises in futility, but that is by-the-by. I was running my J&S 540, with wheel-head, hydraulic pump and extractor from an older Transwave converter, which has an ammeter rather than a voltmeter, and noticed that the needle was hovering between 6 and 8 amps depending on the cut and reversal of the table. I am not sure whether this is the input or output current or what the efficiency of the device is, and there was also the machine light, three double and one single florescent fittings switched on. The sight of the ammeter just caused me to ponder how much all this is costing, given rising energy costs? I have recently increased the direct debit for domestic gas and electricity to £250 per month, as they are stating that the average household bill is going to be £3K and rising but how much of my annual energy use is actually down to the workshop, I have absolutely no idea.

I am one of the more fortunate senior citizens who can afford the rising costs for now and those of my age are getting more help than younger people from the government, or so we have been told unless the new PM cancels it all as one of the candidates is saying she will according to newspaper reports.

I also have 4kW of solar panels, a device that maintains the hot water from the roof and live in a modern relatively well-insulated house but how many are not so well placed or financially upholstered and may have to curtail their workshop activities because of the energy crisis? Perhaps some of the more mathematically cerebral contributors could offer some guidance as to how to estimate workshop energy costs? Just a thought.

[Chris CrewParticipant @chriscrew66644]

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

It’s not difficult to check current or power going to devices. The items needed are relatively cheap and easily available.

As a very basic check, even the installed leccy meter can tell you a lot – if you can be bothered to take some readings under controlled conditions.

No bother, at all, if a smart meter is installed.

[Bryan Cedar 1Participant @bryancedar1]

Posted by Chris Crew on 07/08/2022 12:03:56:

I have been in the workshop this morning for one of my regular exercises in futility, but that is by-the-by. I was running my J&S 540, with wheel-head, hydraulic pump and extractor from an older Transwave converter, which has an ammeter rather than a voltmeter, and noticed that the needle was hovering between 6 and 8 amps depending on the cut and reversal of the table. I am not sure whether this is the input or output current or what the efficiency of the device is, and there was also the machine light, three double and one single florescent fittings switched on. The sight of the ammeter just caused me to ponder how much all this is costing, given rising energy costs? I have recently increased the direct debit for domestic gas and electricity to £250 per month, as they are stating that the average household bill is going to be £3K and rising but how much of my annual energy use is actually down to the workshop, I have absolutely no idea.

I am one of the more fortunate senior citizens who can afford the rising costs for now and those of my age are getting more help than younger people from the government, or so we have been told unless the new PM cancels it all as one of the candidates is saying she will according to newspaper reports.

I also have 4kW of solar panels, a device that maintains the hot water from the roof and live in a modern relatively well-insulated house but how many are not so well placed or financially upholstered and may have to curtail their workshop activities because of the energy crisis? Perhaps some of the more mathematically cerebral contributors could offer some guidance as to how to estimate workshop energy costs? Just a thought.

Surely, if you want the full picture you should be using a smart meter ?

[Chris CrewParticipant @chriscrew66644]

OK, it seems a Smart Meter is the way to go. I will have to make some enquiries.

[Bob Unitt 1Participant @bobunitt1]

AFAIK, for a smart-meter to work you need a reliable mobile phone signal.

[Pete WhiteParticipant @petewhite15172]

I have no idea either, but a few years ago I replaced six 8ft tubes at 80w each with ceiling flush led circular jobs, not cheap, can't remember but I believe the payback was a couple of years even at the old prices. Have installed more direct machine lights on machines where needed.

Worth thinking about.

Pete

[Tim StevensParticipant @timstevens64731]

Hi Chris

As I understand things, the mobile signal is needed to send off the details collected in your smart meter to your power supplier, so they can prepare your bill. Lack of such a facility should not affect the use of such a meter for measuring your useage.

Not being able to get your government recommended smart meter to work for the supplier will be a further pressure on the system to get your signal up to strength.

I think.

Another factor – change your lighting to LED throughout. This should save 3/4 or more when filament bulbs are changed, and around 1/2 when fluorescents are.

Cheers, Tim

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

I don't think the electricity provider will install a Smart meter unless there is a mobile signal although there was too about daisy chaining via close neighbours to get a signal. Also there is supposed to be a new dedicated radio spectrum being deployed just for smart meters – which implies they'll be swapping them all out again.

We can't get one installed in rural Wales even though I can use a mobile indoors via internet calling. It all smacks of doing stuff the most expensive and ungainly way.

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

I bought a plug in power meter that goes between the appliance and socket fro Maplins some years back. I'm sur some searching on eBay or Amazon will find you something similar.

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

Just checked, loads on Amazon typically 25 sqid but down as low as 6! Search plug in power meter

[HOWARDTParticipant @howardt]

Had a smart electric meter fitted a few years ago at the second attempt. The first attempt was a year or so before that when I had two fitters spend about four hours trying to get a reliable mobile signal having to ring the office numerous times to see if they had connected, in the end they refitted the old meter.. At that time they said they were evaluating numerous manufacturers before doing any major installs. I guess at the second and final fitting they had established what would work. The gas smart meter was fitted in 2020 just at the beginning of Covid. Although I live on the outskirts of a city some radio signals can be a little weak and don't ask about 5G.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

OK if a nice man offers a free Smart Meter but I wouldn't go out of my way to have one fitted. They're good for measuring the energy consumption of the whole house, but not ideal for finding out which devices are guzzling energy. For that look up Wattmeter on Amazon or similar, and buy a plug-in device like this:

 

These measure volts, amps, watts and time and many of them can calculate cost as well. Plug any device into the mains via a wattmeter to see the good or bad news!

Energy is priced in 'Units'. A unit is 1000 watts consumed for an hour. A unit, or kilowatt-hour, costs an average of £0.28 in the UK at the moment. To work out the cost it's necessary to multiply the number of watts used by the length of time the device is switched on.

For the purpose of a J&S540 estimate I don't think it's worth getting wrapped up in the difference between Volt-Amps and Watts, effciency, or whether the Chris's 8A is input or output: lets just say the estimate could be out by 20%.

The number of watts is 240V x 8A = 1920W

As 1920W is close enough to 2000W, we can say running the J&S540 for an hour will consume about 2 Units of electricity and cost Chris about 56p. Running the machine continuously for 8 hours would cost £4.48, and if the workshop did 200 8 hour shifts per year, the annual bill would be about £900.

Don't panic! Home workshops rarely run machines for long periods. It's more likely we operate in short bursts with rather long delays in between. So our energy consumption is likely to be on the small side, but worth watching. In particular keep an eye on any device that is mostly on: lights, heating, air-con, radio, fans etc.

Some examples:

• In my windowless workshop the electric lights consume about 300W continuously, so an 8 hour session costs me more than it costs Chris to run his J&S 540 for an hour.
• If I fitted 100 watts worth of black heaters as an anti-rust precaution and left them on permanently, the electricity would cost about £230 per year.

I don't do electric welding and rarely run my compressor. The lathe, mill and band-saw see most action, but all in short bursts.

In my home the workshop isn't a major consumer of electricity. It's the rest of the house! Electric Cooker, 2 fridge-freezers, washing machine, electric shower, vacuum cleaner, lights, central heating pump etc. (I got rid of the tumble drier!) A wife who vacuums the house everyday probably uses more energy than a hobby workshop, unless you run a kiln or do a lot of arc welding. I suspect pumping and lighting a big fish-pond is more expensive than metalwork.

Keep an eye on electronics! The computer and peripherals I'm using consumes about 180W. Powered off on standby the set-up consumes 8W continuously, about £18 per year wasted. If I use the computer for 10 hours a day, it will cost about £136 per year, but at least I got to play with it. Most homes contain always on radios, TVs, routers, alarm clocks, door-bells, games consoles and wall-warts galore.

Had some surprises last time I did a wattmeter sweep; a HiFi consumed more power on standby than when playing music. Turning everything off and making sure the electricity meter isn't still twirling is worth doing too: I found three devices consuming power, two of them unnecessarily. This is one reason smart meters are a good idea: they make it much more obvious when power is being wasted.

Dave

 

 

 

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 07/08/2022 15:36:42

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

You do not need a "smart"-meter to establish your electricity use, at all.

It will tell you the power draw of the entire household at the moment of viewing, so you can for example see is going in the always-on appliances like a fridge, but to make any sensible estimate of the proportion taken by the workshop, of the total, means taking averages over a sensible time; when using the workshop, and when not.

For that you need only the kW/hr used, and you can read that off a conventional meter as easily as a so-called "smart" one.

You can of course add a power-meter to the supply to the workshop and if does record kW/h, not simply instant power, compare its readings to those of the main meter (conventional or smart) over a sensible time, say, a week from 8am Monday to ditto.

I have had a "smart" meter fitted for each of electricity and gas; thinking it was going to be compulsory I should have a sought my mate's advice – he would said no, they are not compulsory and you are better keeping the existing units. He looked into them, and refuses to have them; and he is in the building-trade and a Gas-Safe registree so I would expect him to understand such things rather more than most politicians and newspaper hacks.

You can't though have them replaced by conventional meters. I found once the novelty wore off, in the first week, I did not bother to read it, and have not even plugged the monitor in (another small but definite consumer of Watts) since then.

[Harry WilkesParticipant @harrywilkes58467]

Posted by Chris Crew on 07/08/2022 12:18:46:

OK, it seems a Smart Meter is the way to go. I will have to make some enquiries.

Chris smart meters have some drawbacks so check out the facts and make sure you really want one fitted ! As others have pointed out there other way of finding your load

H

[old martParticipant @oldmart]

The museum manager came to me concerned about the ammount of electricity that the lathe and mills used. He got me to switch them on all together while he looked at the power consumption. When he got back and said it was hardly showing, I said, just try that with the office electric heating.

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

The cheap Maplin power meter I have shows watts and VA.

[Chris CrewParticipant @chriscrew66644]

OK, I have read the responses thus far and I have no argument against any of the helpful suggestions and ideas they have promoted. They have certainly given me pause for thought, thank you. But may I try to move the debate a little further. Say, for example, I have a Smart Meter installed and it indicates that three weekly sessions in the workshop add so many additional units of energy, above the usual domestic consumption, that it cost me £10 per week. This may be a reasonable or a ridiculous figure, I have have absolutely no idea right now, so form your own opinion. That equates to £40 per month or £480 per year. Add a little more for winter workshop heating and call it an additional £500. On top of all the other inflationary rises, plus the costs of the hobby, e.g. materials and castings would this start to discourage anyone? I have no idea. It is not exactly a 'poor man's hobby' in the first place and never has been, IMO, tending to attract those who can command a skilled worker's, supervisory or managerial salary as in years gone by. So when you are facing £3K of domestic energy bills, are struggling financially with increased interest rates and food prices would you be likely to want to add an additional £500 to your household budget. I suspect most will say they will try to carry on as usual, myself included, but I really do have sympathy for those enthusiasts who may not be able to cope with the additional costs that our current national circumstances are imposing upon them.

[Pete WhiteParticipant @petewhite15172]

Gardening is a cheap hobby hence why it was popular the masses. Once you have a spade, second hand ones don't need much checking over as do machines. A packet of seeds is cheap enough, if you buy at the right place you should end up with alot of stuff to eat……. unless the weather is like this year !

[Martin 100Participant @martin100]

Why estimate usage or use a plug in device when a meter to the exact same standards of accuracy as would be used for your whole house metering, or solar export metering costs in the region of £25 (new)

Fix to the wall, four wires to connect.

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/255401007037

 

Edited By Martin 100 on 07/08/2022 16:52:38

[brickyParticipant @bricky]

As I have always got up early, I go into the workshop at 6 and use the machines on economy 7 until 8 it's surprising how much work can be achieved with 2 hrs uninterupted.The reason why I don't have a smart meter is that you have to pay by direct debit and the cost sometimes is more than I have in my current account by the end of the month.When I get the bill now I can transfer money to my current account as I do have other direct debits that need meeting too and a smart meter would catch me out.I think a lot of smart meter holders will be in for a shock.

Frank

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

You should be asking why the price keeps going up and why they're now preparing us for a £4000 annual bill, come January next year.

Martin.

[Harry WilkesParticipant @harrywilkes58467]

Posted by blowlamp on 07/08/2022 17:18:26:

You should be asking why the price keeps going up and why they're now preparing us for a £4000 annual bill, come January next year.

Martin.

Greed

H

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by old mart on 07/08/2022 15:43:32:

The museum manager came to me concerned about the ammount of electricity that the lathe and mills used. He got me to switch them on all together while he looked at the power consumption. When he got back and said it was hardly showing, I said, just try that with the office electric heating.

Exactly so. Heating and lighting which are on for most of the time are big consumers compared with machines that turn on and off.

I measured my lathe back in 2018:

My lathe is a WM-280 fitted with a 1500W 3-phase motor, VFD and two continually running cooling fans. (One on the motor, one on the VFD). How much power does it actually consume in operation I asked myself?

So with belts set to the high-speed range; banjo gears set for fine feed; auto-traverse engaged; and the built-in gearbox set to the finest feed-rate:

• Lathe switched on (ie. with only the fans and electronics running) – 47W
• Motor idling at 150rpm – 210W
• Motor spinning at 1500rpm – 360W

Using 13.7mm o/d steel welded gas pipe as a test piece with carbide inserts and no coolant/lubrication:

• 0.3mm deep cut @ 1500rpm – 542W (A 0.3mm cut removes 0.6mm from the diameter)
• 0.5mm deep cut @ 1500rpm – 540W
• 0.7mm deep cut @ 1500rpm – 565W
• 1.0mm deep cut @ 2400rpm – 960W ( A 1mm deep cut removes about 80 thou from the diameter.)
• Parting off with a 3mm wide carbide blade @ 1000rpm – 600W, lower than expected.

At the finest feed rate (0.07mm per revolution), a 23mm long cut takes about 20 seconds at 1000rpm. I'm too befuddled this morning to calculate how much steel I can remove with 1kWHr's worth of electricity costing me about about 11p.

Taking 2mm off the diameter of a steel rod in one cut is pretty much the hardest I ever drive my lathe in practice. In this test doing so produced a string of smoking blue swarf from the gas-pipe rather than chips. At that rate the lathe pulls less than 1kW, which suggests that I need to drive the lathe significantly harder to stress the motor, and thus have the opportunity to make the carbide inserts work better. On the other hand an unstressed hobby lathe will last longer! (I've no idea what this lathes operational sweet spot is. My car is best if I drive it at a steady 60mph. Lots of stop-start slow speed city motoring is bad for it, as is hammering up and down a motorway at 90.)

Interesting that the belts, banjo and gearbox in fine feed eat a couple of hundred watts before any useful work is done.

Normally I guess I have the lathe burning about 550W during cuts. That's only a couple of amps from a domestic mains socket. I use more electricity lighting the workshop and making tea than I do cutting metal!

Reassuring I hope except for the rising price of electricity! Writing in 2018 I quoted electricity costing 11p per Unit. In Aug 2022 it's about 28p per unit, with more heavy increases on the way: one source suggests 78% in October, with another hike next year in the queue. Previously the Ofgen price cap was set annually. Now it's being reset every 3 months because wholesale prices are rising so rapidly.

Although the cost of running workshop machinery is unlikely to be a problem, managing energy overall is becoming a priority! Nigel recommends not bothering with a smart meter because his mate in the building trade says so, but we need to understand why! There's a danger the mate is an old duffer who hasn't twigged yet that energy is rapidly getting scary expensive! Even rich folk are feeling the pinch. The happy slapdash days when householders could leave 100W filament bulbs burning for weeks on end are over. A smart meter is worth having if it helps households manage energy. I know how to check my ordinary meter but it's a right pain to open the box and do the sums. In contrast my daughter's smart meter is easy to read, and flashes red and sends her text messages whenever limits are exceeded. Better if smart meters weren't necessary, but they probably are…

I fear cheap electric bills are going the way of the Tram, Steam locomotives, and industrial Canals.

Dave

[Graham MeekParticipant @grahammeek88282]

My experience with Smart meters is they tell lies.

Ours never shows the tariff we are on, and will often show different readings each morning when the same things have been running overnight. Not to mention the times when it is not working at all.

An old style electric meter wired into the workshop supply would give a much better reading.

Regards

Gray,

[Author]

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