How long is a piece of string

[Michael HannahParticipant @michaelhannah24786]

Timescales

[Michael HannahParticipant @michaelhannah24786]

Hi

I am thinking about dipping my toe into model engineering for some time and the one thing that makes me think twice is time scales. I have bought the drawing for a Springbok 5" Gauge. eg Could I stay the course.

So here is my hypothetical question.

Given that someone has access to a reasonably well equipped workshop ( lathe, mill etc) and know his way around them.

How long would it take in hours (roughly ) to construct a Springbok.

How long would it take to build a more complicated loco eg a Gresley A3 or P2.

In both cases I would be making use of available casting, laser/water cut bits and getting the boiler made professionally.

Regards

Mike

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Building a 5" gauge is not really "dipping a toe into model engineering". It is more like diving in the deep end headfirst.

As to the length of the piece of string, do you have experience using lathes and milling machines at all? How much? What type of work have you done on them?

An experienced machinist could make a go of it in reasonable time, but if you are a beginner it is more common to build a number of smaller simpler models first to develop your skills.

I haven't built a 5" loco myself so others with more experience can chime in on number of hours work to do the job.

But looking at it as an experienced machinist, I would say it would be easy to spend some hundreds of hours on the build.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I would say there is probably about the same amount of work in a springbok as a similar sized traction engine so you would be looking at in excess of 1000hrs.

Really depends what time you can spend on it, if working 40hrs a week on it you will be up and running quite quickly but if its only part of the weekend and the odd evening then your build will become quite long.

[martyn nutlandParticipant @martynnutland79495]

Michael

Very interesting point this.

Perhaps the real answer is: Does it matter?

You open with a familiar adage. Perhaps another is also apposite. To travel hopefully is better than to arrive!

I wouldn't and couldn't ever build a model anything. I do modest vintage car builds. Whether I will ever finish one is entirely for God to decide and I'm not worried by his conclusion. The satisfaction and pleasure in in the work itself.

So full steam ahead?

Martyn

[MichaelRParticipant @michaelr]

I don't bother about build time it's a hobby as my build times show. 2" Durham& North Yorkshire Traction 3 years building 3" Marshall Traction Engine 8 years building. just start your build and plod away and be contented.

Mike.

Edited By MichaelR on 05/02/2016 08:45:14

[JAParticipant @ja]

From my little experience longer than people say. I find that one is always correcting mistakes or having problems that others don't. One only has to read other threads to realise that: At present someone has a problem with a chilled iron casting for a piston. I think he has reheated it three times and is now considering a steel or aluminium piston.

JA

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Rule of thumb. If you want a steam loco buy one, if you want to build a stem loco build one. There is a difference.

That apart if you are really asking about projects that will keep your interest without feeling interminable you should be thinking about less ambitious projects. I started a 5 inch King probably 25 years ago now but with the acceptance that it would be a lifetime project and I have happily built clocks, a Quorn TCG, small stationary engines and a slew of workshop tools in the mean time.

regards Martin

[Chris Evans 6Participant @chrisevans6]

I have never built a loco but did have to estimate/price work when I ran an injection mould toolroom. Before I read Jason's post 1000 hours had come to mind. With that thought think about how many hours a week you will really put in, add on frustration of sourcing materiel and you have some idea. I do not build models; motorcycle restoration is my thing and it is months not weeks to make progress.

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

You can aim high, but you will have to be prepared for a series of knockbacks and remakes as i have found in the past.

I've never built such a thing but i made my own rack and pinion carriage feed for my lathe with a "half nut" system and found myself having to deal with multiple problems, almost to the brink of giving up and concluding it couldnt be done if it were not for the motivation of my father to carry on. I'm proud of my efforts but i can tell you big projects are not easy.

It normally goes like this, you build a rough prototype for proof of concept, then you need to rework the whole thing to improve it again until you get to a final build, its alot of work and alot of messing up.

I hope you give it a go myself and dont be frightened by failure

Michael W

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

1000 hours seems far to little. Roughly two years at an average of 3 hours every other night or nominal day a week. Which doesn't seem an unreasonable percentage of your life if you are reasonably keen on something. Heck folk spend more time playing golf or at the gym, music and book lovers probably go way over that sofa surfing!

Even if its reasonable estimate for actual working time real world times would probably double if you count set-up, sourcing parts tool or both and dealing with all the on the side detail stuff which individually seems too little time to count but all those odd five, ten and fifteen minutes sure add up in the end. Of course doing it in short bites is much slower. Proportionately more set up time, remembering where you'd got to last, acceleration time whilst you get into the job and clear up time.

2000 if you count every minute is probably nearer. The two things that make for a faster sounding job is being able to spend a bit longer each working session and pushing as much of the detail on the side stuff out into the odd moments when you have a few clear minutes "not long enough to really do something". Magnus mode "I've started so I'll finish" rather than leaving half an hours worth till next time really helps too. Dear old One Track writing in Motorcycle Sport many years ago also had point when he said its important to try and do something, how ever little, every day if you want a restoration job to go quickly. I'd think the same applies to model building. Start pushing stuff back's you've not time to to anything significant and it becomes a habit. My current big project is suffering badly from that malise.

Clive.

Edited By Clive Foster on 05/02/2016 10:29:50

Edited By Clive Foster on 05/02/2016 10:30:39

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

My build is at the moment 21 years old making an Evening star in 3.5 gauge, the reason was one, a house move and two, cost of a boiler. Once started you will race away until you have something on a frame and with axles, then it is a tedious small part job bit by bit. You will follow drwgs, and then find the dimensions are wrong on the drwg. Back to the bench and start again. Cost of materiel and items you need can be considerable too.

You need to be dedicated !

Clive

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

My SImplex build was started about ten years ago. Several pauses and other projects later and it is at the chassis stage, running on air. Started to build the boiler. Had problems and giving it a rest until I have the courage to retry.

I expect the total time spent to be over 3000 hours!

Russell.

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

In one of the old pre-WW2 Drummond publications it mentions a chap who took 35 years to complete his loco

One old chap I met said he did his first one in a couple of years but you neglect your family because of the amazing amount of time it consumes

So moderation will be the route for many of us

Edited By Ady1 on 05/02/2016 11:05:08

[Michael HannahParticipant @michaelhannah24786]

Hi

Thanks for the advice.

To give a bit more info. I am a engineer and long term Model maker ( maybe a good or a bad thing, more of that later). I currently and still will design, build and fly RC Model planes. ( anything from Vintage through to Gas Turbine powered scale ) So I am no stranger to 1 to 2 000 hour plus builds .

I am pretty competent on Metal working tools, not professionally trained and have several well tooled up friends who are and can provide to back up.

I understand the motives of the suggestion of starting small with a clock but to be honest I have no interest in building clocks, stationary engines etc. I find my motivation is a lot more robust building something I want to build (my bad thing mentioned above) .

Hence my question. after trawling these forums it seemed that the Sprinkbok was a good start. But I wanted to first get a handle on the overall commitment it would require. ( the project manager side of me)

So summarising the above it looks like I am looking at 1000 plus hours to build a Springbok and 2 to 3000 thousand hours to do something bigger and complex.

Would that be a fair assessment?

Mike

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

1000 hrs sounds great – around 25 weeks at 40 hr per week. The times I have heard of, loco's traction engines, range from roughly 2 to 4 years even when people spend a lot of their time doing it and have the materials and the equipment and the skill needed.

Maybe sources like this one speed things up

**LINK**

John

–

Edited By Ajohnw on 05/02/2016 13:21:51

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

I'm sure I saw a 3/4 built Springbok for sale in the last 10 days but can't remember where and it doesn't seem to be on here but doesn't seem to be what you would want.

The thing I suggest to complete beginners who want to make a loco is before investing in machinery make the front coupling hook as it only needs a hacksaw and a file. When you finish it decide if you enjoyed it. If you don't finish it maybe model engineering isn't for you.

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

Took me 25 years to make my first serious loco. I did build 2 extensions and have 3 children concurrently though!

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

It does depend a lot on how efficiently you work and how many hours you can put in. I know someone who made a 4" traction engine in about 9 months while also having a full time job. Then again he was also capable of building a Stuart 10V or H in 8-9 hours and to a good standard.

I would say I have 1300-1400 hrs in my Fowler TE and that seems to be around the same figures other TE builders have suggested, this was spread over about 3.5years of evenings and weekends.

Best get your boiler ordered now as most makers have about a 12month lead in time.

[Michael HannahParticipant @michaelhannah24786]

Hi

As I said above I know my way around Lathes Milling machines etc and have a fair bit of experience from a hobby pint of view. I already have access to a well equipped shop so that is not a problem. and I intend to make every use of stuff from the market place. Although I admire guys who make their own casting I quick risk assessment tells me that it is far smarter to leave it to the professionals. Same with boiler making, it is best left to the professionals

I have got what I needed to know which is the rough timescales involved.

Mike

[RICHARD GREEN 2Participant @richardgreen2]

A Stuart 10V in 8 hours ?……………………………………..I don't think so.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I do and I have seen the finished engines, he used to make a nice sum selling them on e-bay. Once set up for it with jigs etc they don't take that long especially if you do half a dozen at a time.

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

That's the key to mass production, as opposed to our normal ME route of bespoke work.

Apparently some of the post WW2 turret lathe journeymen (Herbert operators etc) could crank out amazing amounts of stuff within hours of being given a complicated task

[Bob YouldonParticipant @bobyouldon45599]

Good afternoon Michael,

To give an estimate of the time required to build a Springbok is almost an impossibility, there are too many factors that will require considering before any sort of clear picture; a fellow member of one of the clubs I belong to has been on one since the early seventies whereas another member has the ability to turn out first class stuff in next to no time including building a 6" scale traction engine in twenty three months! The quickest I've ever turned out a locomotive was one of Don Young's 4F and that took sixteen months. I think it was old LBSC who said on average it would take something in the order of 2500 hours for the average worker, mind you he always gave instructions for his "two hour" hand pump, it takes me that amount of time to find the materials.

An old departed friend always said you don't need patience, you need grit, grit to hang in there.

Crack on Michael and it'll be in steam all the sooner. the most difficult thing is getting started.

Regards,

Bob

[Steve Fisher 4Participant @stevefisher4]

Scrooge McDuck gave the answer in a cartoon where he was asked that same question to keep his fortune, the correct answer is "equidistant from the centre to both ends"

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